For In The Name of God

Every now and then we hear a news article about:

~ a parent who had killed their own children, because 'god told me so'.
~ parents and guardians whom readily reject the offering of modern medicine in order to 'faith heal' their child, only for the child to suffer an agonizing, slow death, in the name.
~ individuals whom target a single group that they claim 'god told me to kill them'.
~ groups of people whom gang rape women because 'god allows it'
~ Individuals and/groups whom blow up medical clinics because 'it's gods will'

Fortunately, these are only a select few cases and people. It is more than evident that the vast majority of theists, believers, and the religious never commit such actions, nor would they even consider it.

Recently, however, I was told by an individual while we were talking about Atheism that:

"I do not hate atheists, I'm just prejudice towards them because god has told me to be", In which I responded
"I wonder, if god were to ask you to rape and murder your children, would you do it?" They imediately replied with
"I would"

After a brief pause, they retracted their statement by saying:

"But he would stop me from doing so."

So I bring up the incidences posted at the beginning of this OP. Cases in which God has told these individuals to commit certain actions and never prevented them from actually occurring.

They respond saying:

"The point you are speaking of is obedience to God."

Of course, the point I was making was that they would instantly attempt to rape and murder their own children, without question. They would, and can, actually warp their mind so much to convince themselves that they need to rape and murder their children.

If, in the back of your mind you think "Well, god will just prevent me from carrying out the actions", then you aren't really obedient, are you? You're just putting on a play until god tells you to stop, as if god wouldn't know that you really are just doing it for show.

They continued to state that "I will do what my Creator asks of me."

Nevertheless, it has made wonder:

"How many theists/religious people would actually go through with this, fully believing that it is within 'gods plan' and that it must be done, in gods name"

So, how many of you are as devoted? If, hypothetically, your respective gods were to appear to you in some way and request that you carry out any of the previously mentioned actions, would you?

Secondly, what do you think should occur to people that do? Is it within their right to do these things so long as it's acceptable within their religion?

Doing what your Creator asks of you may be better than what your sergeant asks of you.

Mostly because it's a rarer occurrence by far.

You don't get the point of God, Ghost. The people who kill and rape children will do so whether or not they believe the big bang theory.

"In the name of God, I do evil" is akin to "In the name of Peace, I massacre innocents".
People will say that, doesn't make God evil or Peace a massacre.

a reply to: Ghost147

what if the world was flat? its sad, such a well spoken member of ats would play a "what if" game in some self fulfilling crusade against people that have a different opinion then him/her.

originally posted by: DOCHOLIDAZE1
a reply to: Ghost147

what if the world was flat? its sad, such a well spoken member of ats would play a "what if" game in some self fulfilling crusade against people that have a different opinion then him/her.

So to you raping and murdering your own children is down to a 'different opinion'???.....

How about telling whatever/whoever it was telling you to do such a thing to FO?

a reply to: Prezbo369

i dont claim to speak with whatever/whoever. i like your sensationalist attitude it remineds of a few religious types i know.

This does concern me, I've talked to people that claimed that god has told them to do things, claimed to have seen demons and spirits on a daily basis, and, even more concerning, claimed that most, if not all, psychosis is actually demon possession or divine inspiration. The concept that even if you start hearing voices your first instinct isn't to go "Well... i'm crazy, time to book myself into a psychiatric ward before the voices start telling me to kill people" but eagerness and willingness to obey an entity that, even if you THINK you're hearing it, most likely doesn't really exist, concerns me greatly.

Of course, Crazy people rarely believe they're crazy, so this is pretty much a moot point anyways.

originally posted by: wisvol
Doing what your Creator asks of you may be better than what your sergeant asks of you.

Mostly because it's a rarer occurrence by far.

You don't get the point of God, Ghost. The people who kill and rape children will do so whether or not they believe the big bang theory.

"In the name of God, I do evil" is akin to "In the name of Peace, I massacre innocents".
People will say that, doesn't make God evil or Peace a massacre.

but it underlines the fallacy of using theology as a basis for moral certitude.

originally posted by: DOCHOLIDAZE1
a reply to: Prezbo369

i dont claim to speak with whatever/whoever. i like your sensationalist attitude it remineds of a few religious types i know.

Hardly, nice try though

Are you really attempting to reduce what a fellow ATS member said they would do to their children if instructed by a god?

I guess this type of thing is not a big deal for you then......wth

It really is that simple.

originally posted by: wisvol
The people who kill and rape children will do so whether or not they believe the big bang theory.

What has this got to do with any theory in science? What you're doing is deflecting from the question.

originally posted by: wisvol
"In the name of God, I do evil" is akin to "In the name of Peace, I massacre innocents".
People will say that, doesn't make God evil or Peace a massacre.

Except it's not an 'evil' action in their eyes. There is no universal 'evil' because 'evil' is a subjective view.

originally posted by: wisvol
You don't get the point of God, Ghost

This is absolute correct.

originally posted by: DOCHOLIDAZE1
a reply to: Ghost147
what if the world was flat? its sad, such a well spoken member of ats would play a "what if" game in some self fulfilling crusade against people that have a different opinion then him/her.

The purpose of this thread is to discern just how many people feel that the instances within the OP are valid or not.

I am honestly curious to know just how wide spread this level of faith is held. I find even the potential of these actions being said to 'be acceptable' is as fascinating as it is terrifying.

a reply to: Ghost147
In all fairness, I think what needs to be looked at more than the examples you gave, is the "holy" books themselves, and the examples therein. It's easy for a Christian or Muslim to disavow a lot of religiously motivated crimes, because they can point to the book and say "if it isn't scriptural, God isn't going to request it of me". Of course, it then comes down to a given groups interpretation of scripture, but here again, the more mainstream sects of the Abrahamic religions are going to tell you those groups are outside of God's will, and scriptural teachings.

My question would be, how willing are they to suffer the things the apostles suffered to serve their God? Because I don't believe 99% of them are. They don't mind pronouncing god's judgement on groups and nations, but they aren't about to get their own hands dirty, like the prophets before them.

a reply to: Ghost147

Abraham was ready to kill his son at God's request but was prevented from doing so.

Honestly, if i felt that God was telling me to do such an act, I would strongly doubt my sanity and would question deeply if this could possibly be from God.

The nature of God, revealed in the Bible and especially through Jesus, is not one that would ask such abhorrent things.

a reply to: TzarChasm

but it underlines the fallacy of using theology as a basis for moral certitude.

I'm assuming you mean error when writing fallacy?
"Using theology as a basis for moral certitude is the attitude of religious folk" is an actual fallacy, for the reference. And a strawman.

To those who need a moral compass, I'd rather give a bible than "the selfish gene" or a law-school manual.
This said, murderers will murder, and fools will spew folly.
To those who seek moral certitude, leave room for doubt.

a reply to: Klassified

Yes, that would be a very interesting question

The concepts both fortunately (for the lack of suffering) and unfortunately (for the lack of knowledge) cannot really be answered with any sort of surety unless the actual action of being placed in such a position were to occur.

I understand that the answers for either the negative concept of faith within the op, as well as the more positive concept of faith within your post can never really truly be answered unless experienced. However, I find it very odd that an individual, whom is otherwise a very moral person, could readily accept committing such a heinous act even at a hypothetical level.

I find it very difficult to comprehend such devotion even in the light of such terror.

a reply to: Ghost147

S&F

You and me rarely agree on anything but this time I agree with you. I tell you why, ANYONE who follows God (big G please..... mine is the best.... I

But getting back to the main theme for me is clear..... in my case.....a true child of God would not think this way.

An example for my point of view: If someone put a gun to my head and told me to deny God or die; whether you believe it or not I would refuse. Now here comes the hard one .....If someone put a gun to my child's head and demanded me to deny God or the child dies.... I would not answer and I would make several attempts to convince the man that he has a problem with me and not my child and I would continue to beg to release my child until I changed his mind (of course if the chance comes where I can disarm the person I will) and if the man shot my child I would attack him and one of us going to die.

If I heard a voice telling me to kill my kids, if I saw a large demon and threatened me to deny God I would giggle...I know it sounds funny but that actually happened.

No chance.... You see just because someone has faith in their God (my God will save you from eternal death) does not mean we all go bat # crazy and start killing people, or raping them or show any type of violence. What you are talking about is a very radical/political religious sect that have their own way to worship ..... a perverted way and any woman or man who falls under their hypnotic revelations and manipulation...... next thing you find yourself accepting their false teachings and standing in four feet of water and being baptized into their faith and practices.

A child of God does not tolerate violence.

originally posted by: chr0naut
a reply to: Ghost147
Abraham was ready to kill his son at God's request but was prevented from doing so.

Absolutely. That is certainly where the prevention that was mentioned in the OP had stemmed from.

From a personal perspective, I don't really see it being a positive story at all (exclusively do to my lack of belief in any gods).

originally posted by: chr0naut
a reply to: Ghost147
Honestly, if i felt that God was telling me to do such an act, I would strongly doubt my sanity and would question deeply if this could possibly be from God.

It does seem more of a 'devil' thing to request, than a 'god' thing, at least to me. I am glad to hear you would still come to question the request

originally posted by: chr0naut
a reply to: Ghost147
The nature of God, revealed in the Bible and especially through Jesus, is not one that would ask such abhorrent things.

I too agree

Newth in green:

originally posted by: Ghost147

originally posted by: wisvol
The people who kill and rape children will do so whether or not they believe the big bang theory.

What has this got to do with any theory in science? What you're doing is deflecting from the question.
No. I claim no such link. Your question was would I kill if G. told me to, the answer is wtf dude G. doesn't tell me anything:

originally posted by: wisvol
"In the name of God, I do evil" is akin to "In the name of Peace, I massacre innocents".
People will say that, doesn't make God evil or Peace a massacre.

Except it's not an 'evil' action in their eyes. There is no universal 'evil' because 'evil' is a subjective view.
No, evil is objective, and perception is subjective. People claim to have the science of good and evil, and most often in their heart of hearts when they're raping the gutted corpses of orphans for profit they know they're being evil even if they wouldn't admit to feeling that feeling

originally posted by: wisvol
You don't get the point of God, Ghost

This is absolute correct.
Therefore when stating what people who do think and believe, maybe leave room for doubt?

a reply to: DeathSlayer

Well written

I can perfectly understand all the scenarios you mentioned and the conclusions you would take. And Yes, I understand the the examples in the OP are of very rare occurrence. It was just that the recent discussion I had with another individual made me wonder just how rare they really could be. Fortunately, everyone who has commented so far has done so in similar words as you, which gives me much peace of mind

a reply to: DeathSlayer

You and me rarely agree on anything but this time I agree with you.

I assume that's because you and Ghost play both ends of the spectrum...anti-theism/theism like true real buddys in crime. (sarc or no sarc...that is...)

If someone put a gun to my child's head and demanded me to deny God or the child dies.... I would not answer and I would make several attempts to convince the man that he has a problem with me and not my child and I would continue to beg to release my child until I changed his mind (of course if the chance comes where I can disarm the person I will) and if the man shot my child I would attack him and one of us going to die.

And the huge difference between you and me seem to be: I would INSTANTELY completely deny "God" with no hesitation, whatsoever.