Earth's Early Ocean Was Not Boiling Hot.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

How have we established that consciousness happened millions of years ago when life began?

well read the original OP - we havent established that...dont twist words

Ghost147 said...

consciousness only really occurred millions of years after the onset of life itself.

...."after" life began....

I believe the original earth to be older than what many Christians say. I believe the original earth had not water on it. Water later came upon the earth When God's judgement came upon a being and his followers when he rebelled against God on this earth

Seeing you have scripture as you stated...can you point me to where any sort of ice age is mentioned in the Old Testament
This should be fun

a reply to: Kashai

A point being that animal life formed as result of cells that became different from bacterial cells and as a result there came organization of multicellular life

Maybe consciousness is an emergent property of higher complex life - we think animals like dogs have feelings but whether they have a higher consciousness or a sense of "self" is still hotly debated.

a reply to: Kashai

So the lines between what is human and what is animal are being blurred. What is the benefit of lowering man to the state of animal?

What agenda is behind this push - (not you personally)
Are we opening the doors to creating different classes of humans perhaps justifying labelling some as incurable or allowing uninformed testing on humans, euthanasia, genocide?

Here's an interesting rationale - "what" exactly defines us as humans?

blogs.discovermagazine.com...

An Opening for Newcomers

In terms of a scientifically upgraded version of “human rights” that might be called “human citizenship,” let’s imagine this open-door immigration policy as ontological rather than geographical in nature. Thus, non–Homo sapiens may be allowed to migrate to the space of the “human.” Animal-rights activists believe they are already primed for this prospect. They can demonstrate that primates and aquatic mammals are not only sentient but also engaged in various higher cognitive functions, including what’s nowadays called “mental time-travel.” This is the ability to set long-term goals and pursue them to completion because the envisaged value of the goal overrides that of the diversions encountered along the way. While this is indeed a good empirical marker of the sort of autonomy historically required for republican citizenship, in practice animal-rights activists embed this point in an argument for de-facto species segregationism, a “separate but equal” policy, in which the only enforceable sense of “rights” is one of immunity from bodily harm from humans. It is the sense of “rights” qua dependency that a child or a disabled person might enjoy.

The fact that claims to animal rights carry no sense of reciprocal obligations on the part of the animals toward humans raises question about the activists’ sincerity in appealing to “rights” at all. However, if the activists are sincere, then they should also call for a proactive policy of what the science-fiction writer David Brin has termed “uplift,” whereby we prioritize research designed to enable cognitively privileged creatures, regardless of material origin, to achieve capacities enabling them to function as peers in what might be regarded as an expanded circle of humanity. Such research may focus on gene therapy or prosthetic enhancement, but in the end it would inform a Welfare State 2.0 that takes seriously our obligation to all those we regard as able to be rendered human, in the sense of fully autonomous citizens in the Republic of Humanity.

a reply to: TheConstruKctionofLight

I believe that people learn best doing their own study so I hope you will take the time too.

Take the word beginning in the Authorized Version and find all its uses, then divide each one and note the differences, and you will find that the beginning of Genesis 1 was not the beginning of all things but of a time when God made the earth habitable for men.

the beginning John speaks of is of the establishment of the spiritual Kingdom in the Doctrine of Love i.e. Love God, love each other a preparation teaching for Israel to enter the Physical kingdom.

And then you will find a beginning of his ways where God had already been exalting and lifting up his son. A beginning before the earth was created, before there was depth to the heaven to place that earth in, and before the fountains abounding with water were ever released from their decreed place.

I have left you other titbits (i.e words) in this post that if you search these words you will find more things to compare and possibly see the truth that this earth was created to be a place that the son was to be exalted and worshipped.

I will talk about the throne that was created and corrupted those who had physically made it and made claim to it. And to the possibilities as to how that has affected the whole of the heaven and the earth that was set into the depth of heaven. And how all that affected the days of His work, God did in Genesis 1.

I agree with ghost et al. The spontaneous withdrawal reflex, when you touch or grasp something hot, occurs before the conscious mind registers it. An instinctive, protective reaction which is not dependent on awareness Surely this ability evolved prior to consciousness and explains the actions of simple cell organisms?

So the primordial Earth oceans were more temperate, earlier than once thought (way cool, literally!!) and people jump right in with anthropomorphic daddy figures right away? Did I miss something ... besides a couple thousand years of self referential b.s.?

Anyway, way cool that if one were cruising by our rock a few billion years ago, one could go for a dip if one wanted to... and then they could go poopy in the not too hot, not too cold bath and start the chain that produced us... but then, in that scenario, who produced the pooper? Huh? (And that should've been the opening scene to Prometheus, in my estimation).

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
From my personal Christian view. I believe the original earth to be older than what many Christians say. I believe the original earth had not water on it. Water later came upon the earth When God's judgement came upon a being and his followers when he rebelled against God on this earth. that is where Genesis 1:2 starts and everything after that second verse is how everything today is as it is.

But hey, I am just an ignorant fool and that is MHO.

Yes I do have verses from the Bible for my belief.

I hope I have not derailed the thread.

I believe the bible was written by people with their own agenda's, with very limited knowledge of what makes the universe tick,and, as far as I am aware, the apostles cannot agree with each as to the life of the son of god.
When in conversation with a bible thumper at the front door about the flood, the question arose about where the water came from, she said it was in orbit, that's a new thing, the word 'orbit' is comparitivly new, anyway when I asked why wasn't the water frozen solid, she stated to choke, and had to leave,, still that beats the water welling up from the centre of the earth.

a reply to: TheConstruKctionofLight

So the lines between what is human and what is animal are being blurred. What is the benefit of lowering man to the state of animal?

What agenda is behind this push - (not you personally)
Are we opening the doors to creating different classes of humans perhaps justifying labelling some as incurable or allowing uninformed testing on humans, euthanasia, genocide?

To respond in the most general way it is not that indigenous cultures lower man to the state of the animals. But rather animals are raised to the state of man.

a reply to: pikestaff

would you like to know where the water came from?

From the fountains of abounding with water that God created shortly after he began to exalt and lift up his son. And it was not originally found on earth. Then because of some event they left their decreed place and a swaddling band was placed around it, that is when the Book says the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. The waters were pour out of the fountains upon the earth Gen 1:2 is a flood (and not the flood of Noah either). It was an earlier judgement to destroy the throne that Lucifer tried to exalt about the throne of heaven.

But what do I know I am just an ignorant Christian bible thumper with no knowledge of anything. Who would rather take the Bible at 100% literal than to see it as 98% allegory and 2% truth.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

But what do I know I am just an ignorant Christian bible thumper with no knowledge of anything.

You can fix that, you know.

a reply to: Phage

Phage I was being sarcastic.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

I will talk

You talked about everything except what was asked of you...you proved my point twice...you're only here to preach not to have any meaningful discussion.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

I am just an ignorant Christian bible thumper

Bible thumper certainly, ignorant quite possibly, but you are not a Christian. Your beliefs appear to be uniquely your own.

a reply to: TheConstruKctionofLight

Preach. All I did was just look at the topic from the Bible. NO harm in that.

a reply to: Astyanax

there are more who think as I do but ok slay me at the altar of the gods of science.

theCon, Let me go for a few and I will try and put something together to present.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: Astyanax

there are more who think as I do but ok slay me at the altar of the gods of science.

Ironic you're using the phrase "altar of the gods" when you're the only one using religious scripture to try and justify your position. In a science forum.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

slay me at the altar of the gods of science

Why would I want to do that? Or do you have a hankering for martyrdom? Seems to be awfully common these days.

Anyway, these beliefs are not, as far as I know, Christian:

A beginning before the earth was created, before there was depth to the heaven to place that earth in

I think Genesis makes it quite clear that Earth was created ‘in the beginning'.

Then because of some event they left their decreed place and a swaddling band was placed around it, that is when the Book says the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. The waters were pour out of the fountains upon the earth Gen 1:2 is a flood (and not the flood of Noah either). It was an earlier judgement to destroy the throne that Lucifer tried to exalt about the throne of heaven.

On what Scriptural authority are you making these statements?

a reply to: Astyanax
that would be a figure of speech nothing literal.

I would like to start with a condition for the sake of argument. I am not saying I am right and anyone else wrong, including science.

I am a Bible Believer and you all know that. So I want to use my Bible as my only proof. I believe that the Bible should be taken literally so this too I would ask you go along with me, even if you don’t, again for the sake of argument.

The subject at hand is the oceans. Water something much like life on this planet something that cannot just happen. The conditions must be absolutely perfect to produce pure water. Mind you that no water on earth is pure because since it was introduced on this planet it has dissolved many things into it and carries those dissolved pieces of matter with it always unless we purify it via distillation. It is also one of the most powerful naturally occurring solvents ever.

I will use only this one section of verses from my AV Bible as the base of my presentation. Or this will turn into a very long presentation.

Pr 8:22-24 ¶ The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

Now if I take this section literally there are a few things to see.

One, is that there is obviously more than on beginning in the Bible as this one does not line up with that of Genesis 1.

Pr 8:22-24 ¶ The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

the scriptures reveals that wisdom was the starting context. But when it gets to this verse a concept of thought, that is wisdom, is spoken of as a person. Upon deeper examination of scriptures we see it is speaking of someone other than LORD (JHVH) and it is someone the LORD from his, the LORD’s, beginning he, The LORD brought forth and wanted to set up and did so from Everlasting. To the Christian the one being possessed, set up and was brought forth was a pre-incarnation existence of who we know as Jesus Christ.

Two, If the Bible is preserved then the order in which these verses flow are Chronological. We see that this Beginning took place some time before that of Genesis 1. Because the bringing forth, the setting up and possessing of this being was done before there was an earth, a depth of space and before fountains of water were created.

Three, Everlasting is a time concept we as humans are confined to 24/7 cannot fully understand. From everlasting to everlasting is one of the preserved Bible quirkyous terms and has become synonymous with ETERNITY. Eternity is the encapsulation of from everlasting to everlasting. It has no beginning and no end. ALL material used in creation comes from this source and has an eternal age to it of which we don’t understand that age process. Hence the reason we cannot get carbon dates for the earth to be less than millions of years old.

Four, After this beginning of his way and the exaltation of this person if we accept it as chronological the LORD then created the earth, he called this place EDEN. Then so that there could be room enough he created a depth, we call it deep space. Unlike many he did not nor does this creation of depth take place in Gen 1:14. The heaven where God placed the sun, moon and stars was already there by Genesis 1:1. In a sense he just decorated it and from what science has shown it is a vast space.

Five, there was no water originally on the earth during the chronological events described. PURE water flows from the throne of God as found in Rev 22:1. This is the origin of all water that would be found any where in the Universe and that from a bible believers point of view.

Now how did the water get from the fountains to the earth. The story about the fall of Lucifer also known as Satan. The Bible is very silent on many things that took place before Genesis 1:2 and one of those is this beings fall and his angles who assisted him. He was the highest being in the order below God and the one being set up. He was an anointed chrub that covereth. This is why when we see the chariot throne of God in Scripture it is missing a being over the top, it only shows the four around it ezk.1, and 10.

This being may be that he was commission to build a throne city for this person whom the LORD possessed and set up. It was this throne that caused him to say that he would lift it up above all the throne of God. This pride was his downfall and God judged him and sent forth the waters in these fountains and flooded these beings out and destroyed the first throne city and the earth. Water was literally on the ground and in the heaven. In the end we see that the new earth, that has no oceans, will indeed have a throne city on it and it will be forever.

In conclusion the waters which would later be oceans were not as hot as we would think. The waters upon this earth now made the possibility for life to exist. And some time after this flooding we come into the Bible in Genesis 1:2

Ge 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

I could not list all the bible verse but I have left those bread crumbs to follow via words and terms anyone can follow with a Bible program and a search engine.

No preaching intended.