GOP and Media Elite having an existential crisis over Trump

a reply to: MysticPearl

Conservatism thrives on isolationism. Is it any wonder that the reddest states in the country are in the middle? The most Democratic-voting states are on the coast? When people travel and interact with people of various cultures and ethnicities, it tends to decrease traditional American "conservatism".

With the advent of the internet, the younger generation of Americans are increasingly exposed to a larger world. In a way, it is not unlike living in a large city (traditionally more liberal) or being a world traveler (also tend to be more liberal).

We are more liberal now than we were 20 years ago. The 80's were more liberal than the 60's. The 40's were more liberal than the 20's...

It's inevitable.

America will resemble today's Europe in about 20 years, we've been doing so for a very, very long time.

The "opposition" to which you seem to be a part of is simply louder. People that fear and resist change tend to raise their voices, rabble more and generally get noticed. This, in turn, causes a false sense of being in a majority.

The voting record of this country doesn't lie. When the American people come out in force in large numbers for a presidential election, they vote Democrat, not Republican. It's only the die-hard voters that are maintained by fear and anger that keeps them going back to the voting booth during the mid term elections.

It's inevitable, it's always been happening and will continue to happen. Even Bob Dylan knew it:

Come mothers and fathers
Throughout the land
And don't criticize
What you can't understand
Your sons and your daughters
Are beyond your command
Your old road is rapidly agin'
Please get out of the new one
If you can't lend your hand
For the times they are a-changin'

Well this thread took a wild tangent.

a reply to: HoldMyBeer

Not sure if reported here or ATS but Gov Chris Christie...
I heard it on NPR but here's another source...

www.cnn.com... d-trump/

Cheers
Ektar

I swear to God, I’ve somehow managed to slip into an alternate universe. A kind of Opposite World. A place where everything I’ve come to know and value is now turned upside down, shaken up and tossed into the wood chipper. For me to make sense of anything happening in the mainstream today involves a 2-step process: 1) I form a first impression via logic and instinct, and then 2) throw that impression out the window and replace it with the complete opposite view. That’s just how it rolls here in Opposite World.

This world (especially America) has changed radically over the past 20 or so years. And not for the better. I thought after we elected Bush for a 2nd term we had surely hit bottom. Surely. But, man was I wrong. It just so happens Donald Trump is on the tube right now bragging about getting the endorsement of Sheriff Joe Arpaio to a rousing round of applause. Why is it everytime I hear Trump’s voice it brings on my gag reflex?

And the other GOP candidates are no better (maybe even worse, believe it or not) than Trump. The GOP has become real circus act and is dragging this nation down with it. It’s disgusting, and is an embarrassment for a once great nation.

I could go on and on, but I’ll not waste the time. If America wants a reality tv Presidency, then it will get what it deserves. We should be ashamed. Too bad we’re dragging the rest of the world down with us...

a reply to: netbound

I feel you. It's surreal.

a reply to: HoldMyBeer

Trump 2016!!!

Trump will finish what Ron Paul started in 2008 and continued in 2012, and that is to finish off the neocons that are a curse to America, they are hard to kill, like vampires, if Ron Paul took a swing and drew blood, Trump will put it through their hearts when he wins.

Reasons a Trump presidency terrifies me (not that the alternatives have my support either - it's not a zero sum proposition.)

• He's as neoconservative as one can get, and as such, given his governing inexperience (running a successful business is NOT analogous to governing) strikes me as being amenable to influence by neoconservative think tanks, groups, individuals, much as George W Bush was. He was a Democrat up until 1987. He was a Republican 87 - 99. Reform party 99 - 2001. 01 - 09, Democrat again. Republican again from 09 - 2011. Independent for a year. Then Republican from 2012 on. Granted, a person has the right to change their mind. But that's a lot of changing with the winds, possibly opportunistically so imho.
  
  
• He has displayed a startling lack of nuance with regard to complex issues, and his go-to tactic seems to be ad hominem attacks. He is hyper-competitive, combative, and derisive towards any appearance of "weakness" which he apparently defines as nuance, subtlety, or concilliatory diplomacy of any kind. He has said he advocates torture whether it works or not (he insists it does despite experts repeatedly pointing out that it does not) simply because "they deserve it." He routinely oversimplifies things and people as "bad," "terrible," "low energy," etc. This is not someone I want in command of the most powerful military force in human history, at a time when multiple regional conflicts and a simmering low key Cold War 2.0 are all in play.
  
  
• An ATS topic pulled from a Disinfo.com (sister site) piece recently presented an argument that Trump is not anti-establishment, but rather is merely a manifestation of the powerful financial elite who so many conspiracy theorists posit really control political processes the world over, cutting the middle man out. That is to say, rather than going through lobbyists, campaign finance, and backroom deals to influence leaders, they are simply bypassing the established political process and party politics entirely to appoint their own representative. While I don't know if that's true at all of course, would it really surprise me? No. I mean, he's not automatically "good" or "better" purely because he's eschewing typical party mechanisms and an "outsider." You think the 1% or 5% or however one wishes to characterize them - or some of them - secretly partake in cabals which exert disproportionate influence on global governments through various secret orders and societies for their own purposes? You think they're capable of anything and don't have any qualms with what happens to any state because their loyalty is only to themselves? I'm not saying I do necessarily, but when I look at Donald Trump, I see a person who epitomizes the description of a prime candidate for that role. A billionaire with fickle neoconservative ideological stances that change with the wind, and in many cases are further to the right than even the most hawkish GOP personages. The perfect candidate to "finish the job" GWB started and Obama has perpetuated in the Middle East (if one subscribes to those theories, of course.) Upset about Wallstreet bailouts (I know he says he wants to fight Wallstreet and fix the economy but...)? Trump wants to lower the corporate tax rate to 15%, which right now is around what those who make 50,000 a year or less pay in federal taxes.
  
  
• While on the subject of his economic policies... His immigration policy could decimate the economy, at least temporarily. Source: www.thestreet.com...
  

  
  
  The American Action Forum, a right-leaning policy institute based in Washington D.C., estimates that immediately and fully enforcing current immigration law, as Trump has suggested, would cost the federal government from $400 billion to $600 billion. It would shrink the labor force by 11 million workers, reduce the real GDP by $1.6 trillion and take 20 years to complete (Trump has said he could do it in 18 months).
  
  "It will harm the U.S. economy," said Doug Holtz-Eakin, president of the American Action Forum and chief economic policy adviser to Sen. John McCain's 2008 presidential campaign. "Immigration is an enormous source of economic vitality."
  
  The impact would be felt on both supply and demand.
  
  A number of industries that depend heavily on cheap immigrant labor would be devastated -- especially agriculture. "There would be an abrupt drop in farm income and a sharp rise in food prices," said John McLaren, professor of economics at the University of Virginia with expertise in international trade, economic development and the political economy.
  
  Companies that sell to the immigrant population would be affected as well, leading to decreased revenues for local businesses and a loss of American jobs.
  
  "Immigrants, whether they are legal or illegal, always spend a portion of their earnings in the location where they have their jobs," McLaren said. "And in a lot of our urban centers, this is actually an important part of the economy."
  
  He pointed to the case of Postville, Iowa, where in 2008 U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) raided a slaughterhouse and meat packing plant, detaining 389 undocumented workers (and jailing 300 of them). The raid caused most of the more than 1,000 immigrants not caught to leave the town of 2,300, devastating the local economy in the process.

  
  Granted, one could say, "Well that's a biased source. It's a right leaning think tank and a McCain supporter so of course they'll attack the anti-establishment candidate." (Setting aside that I don't see him as anti-establishment at all personally... merely anti-the-political-establishment.) But I thought McCain was routinely described as being willing to ruffle feathers in his party establishment. A "Maverick" and so forth? I suppose compared to Trump no one is far enough outside the lines to compare. Which brings me to the last reason he scares me.
  
  
• As an ideologue who appeals to defiance, boldness, and misanthropy (in my opinion at least,) his greatest and most vocal support seems to stem from some who want to vote for him simply because, "At least he's different," and, "Just to stick it to the establishment." While I do applaud that underlying sentiment, I also see a real danger in placing into power someone of whom all of the above is or may also be true, simply as a protest vote that has taken on a life of its own.
  

As always, I could be completely wrong. This is one person's opinion, and I have no desire to argue about it. If supporting Trump is truly the vote that will appease one's conscience and beliefs most honestly then, that is everyone's prerogative. I will not insult, attack, or demean those who do so.

For me though, put simply, I fear if Donald Trump is elected president, we may all be having an existential crisis, and it might not just be political.

Peace.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: HoldMyBeer

At this point I'm resigned to believe that it's up to the Democrats to beat him. The GOP has imploded on itself apparently. The two other candidate with a shot are taking from each others' votes and are too egotistical to realize that if one of them dropped out, the other would have a shot at taking Trump out. But nah, that would require one of them to have some humility. Fat chance.

Who the hell cares about the Democrats or the GOP, they were both imploded and useless long ago.

The corruption so rampant it is beyond belief, let us enjoy this change of scenery.

a reply to: netbound

Oh you are seeing and feeling the changes alright.

Just it is a fact that you weren't aware of how bad things really were, and now you are siding with the mainstream media and did not even know it.

This is the trouble with being a full 7 years behind the curve, like almost everyone is, they cannot see things happening in real time, and cannot adjust their vision at ANY TIME.

This world is going to get rebuilt, and in super fast mode too, and you will be with those who never understand one second of it.......oh well.

well... scary days indeed ...


Does Anyone Realize .. That...

IF......... Trump Won...

We Would Have a Yugoslavian First Lady ..
That Came to live om America in 2001 and became citizen in 2006



Melania Trump
en.wikipedia.org...

In 2015, asked about her husband's presidential campaign, Melania said, "I encouraged him because I know what he will do and what he can do for America. He loves the American people and he wants to help them."[30] When asked by The New York Times what her role would be if Trump were to become president, Melania replied: “I would be very traditional. Like Betty Ford or Jackie Kennedy. I would support him.

LOL Yeah OK .. Betty Ford Jackie Kennedy ... Yup High Maintenance for Sure .. like Jackie ...

This is NOT a #ing Monarchy Royalty!! here in the USA
She is NOT a Consort ..


This is the Same Guy that Demanded Obamas Birth Certificate ??

Yet his wife isn't even Born in America and
She didn't come to live in the States Until she was 31 !

And American Born Citizens are Going to Allow this # ??

a Foreigner having some form of Control or leeway ?

as Most First Ladies have some Form of a Campaign of Something ...

Trumps Thinks hes Royalty ! even Named his Son with Her Barron ! ?

Only in America !



I would Like Melania say "" Go to the Choppa! "" just once !


Sorry Folks

Our Constitution should have ::
To Be the First Lady you need to be American Born

Right Trump! ??

Just Saying !

Jesus Christ what the Hell Happened to this Country!

originally posted by: AceWombat04

He's as neoconservative as one can get,

You clearly have no idea what that means. How on Earth can you say that someone who was always against the Iraq war, the crown jewel of neoconservative policy, is somehow still themselves a neoconservative?!?

Nation building, private treasure hunting at public expense, war for the bottom line of companies that need war for profit...you might say that Trump is a novice politician and so he many end up doing all that anyway, as that would be just your guess about the future after all, but at least his campaign platform and the long term record of his publicly stated opinions is consistent and clear about being against the NeoConservative military misadventures of the past ~30ish years.

Furthermore, his life long modus operandi is just so much in contrast with that approach. As a business person, Trump is their opposite. The NeoCon war machine is a destruction based industry. Trump is a builder. He knows that what those guys do is great for their business but bad for his business and for everyone else's business too.

a reply to: 11andrew34

We shall agree to disagree. As I said, I have no desire to argue about my opinion. Nor will I. I will offer this however: www.washingtonpost.com... Not exactly a strong critic of the war, imo. But again, feel free to disagree. I'm sorry, but I don't do online debates. Please don't interpret my reticence to discuss at greater length as hostility or anything. It is not intended or implied.

Peace.

a reply to: MysticPearl

What is destroying Europe at the moment is not the catering to this person, or that person, or this demography or that demography. What is destroying Europe at the moment is the same thing that has always bought change by either ballot or bullet, that being the background movements and machinations of people who have purchased media power and political influence, shifting pieces on a board in order to divide people against one another, making them easier to control.

Problems around the world may differ, in both appearance and apparent origin, but they all have the same source, from poverty and death from avoidable disease on the African continent and the Asian continent, to immigration from the Middle East to the West.

There has only ever been one problem worth solving, and by being easily distracted by irrelevancies like immigration, social justice issues, left and right partisanship, and all of that good stuff people like to get good and mad about, most people pretty much guarantee that nothing will ever improve, by allowing themselves to be controlled, from their thoughts, to their voting patterns.

It is understandable, and at the same time utterly inexcusable, to allow oneself to be led around by the nose with such ease.

originally posted by: AceWombat04
a reply to: 11andrew34

We shall agree to disagree. As I said, I have no desire to argue about my opinion.

You can say or not say whatever you want of course, but I most certainly do not agree to disagree with fools. Objectively, "Trump is a Neoconservative" is obviously not a statement of opinion, it is an erroneous statement of fact. You are objectively wrong about what a Neoconservative is, or otherwise mistaken about Trump.

Why on Earth would the Neoconservative establishment be pulling their collective hair out about the possibility of a Trump win if he was also a Neoconservative!?!? Why spend so much on Jeb and Rubio? Why run a fraud of a Goldman Sachs puppet like Cruz, with his disgustingly fake holy roller act?

Even Hillary Clinton is more commonly labeled a Neoconservative than Trump.

Trump does not have an extensive record as he is not a career politician, but judging by his campaign platform and stated policies it is obvious that Trump is more or less a Nationalist/Populist, which makes him a throwback of the sort not seen in the Republican party since Reagan or Nixon. But it's the populist angle that makes Trump unlike pretty much any major candidate of the past because his populism is tuned to the times.

Furthermore, you won't be able to produce any Neoconservative source claiming Trump as one of their own. Instead, what you'll begin to see soon is a bunch of Neoconservative pundits trying to choose between A) endorsing Hillary and B) changing their tune to try to protect their careers to suit a Trump presidency.

originally posted by: AceWombat04
I will offer this however: www.washingtonpost.com... Not exactly a strong critic of the war, imo. But again, feel free to disagree. I'm sorry, but I don't do online debates. Please don't interpret my reticence to discuss at greater length as hostility or anything. It is not intended or implied.

Peace.

Outrageously cowardly. I almost feel sorry for you. Well old bean, I hope you won't take it personally as I obviously don't know you, but wow what a garbage thing to say about your own posting; I'd be doing you a disservice if I didn't call you on it.

My opinion is that you have shamefully demonstrated that for this moment, for whatever reason, you are the sort of person who can't admit when they are objectively wrong. We all have off days? Frankly, I'm mystified at why you'd bother posting at all with a sad attitude like that, but I leave my response here to make the record clear that you ran away when you couldn't admit you were objectively wrong about a basic fact.

You say you don't debate, but that's exactly why you did with adding your Washington Post link in support of a new, additional point you've introduced to the debate here. Why claim to not be a debater, yet fire a parting shot? And of course it was another dishonest one, as your link speaks to an entirely different point.

Your new point suggests that you now admit that Trump was against the signature NeoCon policy, the Iraq War, but you suggest he didn't go far enough to...well you don't make any claims you just throw it out there. You vaguely suggest I should be dissatisfied with him what...not having run in 2004? Anyways I think he obviously established that he was not a Neoconservative himself, so what else do you want this to be about now?

Am I supposed to be disappointed that Trump was not a leader of the anti Iraq war movement? At the time, he was not a politician, and had probably only just begun to consider it. He's on the record because he was (and still is) a business leader and a public figure, the way that other business people and celebs in general might end up on the record in a way that a journalist could go back and research years later for whatever reason. If either party had done a passingly competent job of governing over the past 20+ years, I seriously doubt he'd be running at all.

Anyways, if you want to go on believing that Trump is a Neoconservative, I can't have any respect for you as a thinker and communicator here. I'm sure you'll get by just fine without it, of course. But seriously, you can do better than simply embracing ignorance and choosing to live with your own preferred fantasy version of reality.

I mean really, is this some kind of sad establishment tactic? 'Since people hate us, the establishment, try to convince them that Trump is one of us!' It amounts to pissing on the leg of the American voter and telling them it's raining. The average voter is no rocket scientist, but they aren't THAT stupid.

That approach would suggest you'd be a Rubio supporter...whereas being in utter denial of reality would suggest that you were a true believer of the career fraud named Ted Cruz. It's too bad you don't debate or you could tell me which if either is correct...

a reply to: 11andrew34

"Fool," "cowardly," speculation that I support other candidates, etc. And this is why I don't bother engaging in online debates. That sort of wholesale dismissal of my character as a person, based upon nothing but text on a screen and a mountain of inference.

Certainly, I could attempt to defend my opinion, or offer a clearer context as to its intent and why I chose the words I did, but it's clearly pointless. I have no desire to "win" or change your mind, and you've already decided I'm a coward and wrong irrespective of anything else I could say.

Such debates are futile for precisely that reason. I post my opinions, then I leave. I don't debate. This is why.

That, and frankly, my social anxiety simply cannot bear the conflict. If I thought things could remain civil (they never do, despite my never responding in kind,) or that one iota of fruit would be born of the effort it requires for me to sustain an online debate, I might do so. But I don't, so I won't.

I bear you no ill will. Think of me what you will. You clearly already do. I will not respond further. Take that as you wish.

Peace.

I'm voting for Trump because I want the Mexicans gone, tariffs on the Chinese and TrueBrit's head to explode.

Honestly, and not in that order.

I savor your discontent.

a reply to: Tempter

I savor your discontent.

Why?

Why would you savour my discontent? What purpose does that serve? More to the point, how can you consider yourself fit to vote in the first place, if the level of discomfort your choice might impose upon me, is part of your decision making? This is millions upon millions of lives you are messing with there!

When people are misinformed, low on information, consume bias-confirming media (tells them what they want to hear) -- and THEN vote to just "stick it to the man" ...

It's a sad day for our country.

People should be informed, expose themselves to ideas they don't agree with and put themselves in the shoes of others to see from other view points. People should vote for ideals, not out of spite.

Everyone has heard of the "sound bite" which is used to sway opinion. Trump has tapped into the whole sound bite thingy +10,000..

All those politicians who have used the excuse, "it is very complicated" as to why some things are the way they are comes up against Trump who says, "I can fix it, build it bigger and better under cost and make America great again". Truth is the devil is in the details .... but is a whole lot better than 50 years of "it is complicated", no?

Career politicians have got us into this perceived situation and at this stage it would appear the voting public is tired of the same old B.S.

In my old age I must have turned into an anarchist for I am totally getting a kick out of all the hand wringing dealing with, "Oh my god what if he wins" kind of talk. Welcome to a democracy where supposedly the voters select the next nominee.. One thing about it in less than 24 hours we will see who has won super Tuesday.

Truebrit if you think Trump would destroy the world faster than China is doing I think you are wrong and being an intelligent kinda of guy you might want to rethink that position ...

Just the Coral reef systems they, China has/have destroyed in their last Island making scheme is something I doubt any politician in America could have gotten away with to include the military. Being on the 14th floor of a 5 star hotel in Shanghai or Beijing and not being able to see the ground due to the pollution that does not stay in place but circles the globe is but the tip of the China iceberg..Not to mention the prospect of a no kidding shooting war which at this stage all roads seem to lead to.
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