The MiG 1.42 and T-60S

With these two aircrafts being built for export to India and China do you think that with all of the War scenarios between the US and China and India and Pakistan or even the US vs. India, China and Russia do you guys think that this would cancel out the theory of US air superiority and bring stabilization to the worlds air power.

www.area51zone.com...

Quite interesting since India has been actively contributing brainpower and fianance to the PAK-FA and 1.42 projects, and it has recently openly admitted to be jointly developing the T-50 with the russians...what I didn't know was this article claims that Russia plans to sell these jets to china even...quite a twist that is...

Another link that tells more about the new MiG

home.iae.nl...

How advanced the plane is does not matter, its the more skilled pilot or pilots almost always wins. Thats what Red Flag is for

True but assuming that the pilots are all well trained say the best USAF pilot using a F-22 vs the best IAF pilot using the MiG 1.42 who do you think would win and both the pilots are equal in skills.

the best IAF pilot flying the Mig 1.42 whoa whoa, relax for a sec let the Russians at least try it out first and maybe pilot their own plane

thats just weird ur putting an IAF pilot into Mig 1.42, the Russians will be the first ones to have it and im assuming they wont be selling it for quite a while.

oh and judging by what is written, Mig 1.42 will take down F-22 if the pilots are of equal skill.

True but assuming that the pilots are all well trained say the best USAF pilot using a F-22 vs the best IAF pilot using the MiG 1.42 who do you think would win and both the pilots are equal in skills.

The F/A-22...
The F/A-22 has gone through more then enough testing and has been upgraded numerous times throughout the development phases. It also has the benefit of being a 2-2.5 generation stealth platform by a country that knows how to developed stealth platforms. It will be going through its first block upgrade starting in 2008. Its computers and radar are more advanced and the fact that it has sensor fusion gives it more then enough potential in the hands of a skilled pilot.
Also, if the USAF/USN chose to more towards IR then I’m sure those huge, albeit powerful engines will glow like the sun on the IRST.

Oh, and the fact that it isn’t a dedicated air superiority fighter but a multirole fighter it would most likely pale in comparison to the air dominance worthy F/A-22, witch if full aspect stealth and not reduced RCS like the 1.44...

Say, that T-50 on the other hand looks like a beast. There is room for a nice little AESA radar, weapons and it should have wonderful high alpha handling...


[edit on 11-1-2005 by ChrisRT]

There's major ambiguity between the IAF(Israeli Air Force) and the IAF (Indian Air Force)....here the MiG 1.42 would go to the latter and so maybe killak420 was insinuating that??

Originally posted by dtmfreak
the best IAF pilot flying the Mig 1.42 whoa whoa, relax for a sec let the Russians at least try it out first and maybe pilot their own plane

thats just weird ur putting an IAF pilot into Mig 1.42, the Russians will be the first ones to have it and im assuming they wont be selling it for quite a while.

The reason I said that the IAF(Indian) pilot instead of a RAF pilot is because in the article it said that Russia would not be using the MiG 1.42 because it cannot afford it but they were going make them for India and China.

Th eMiG 1.42 actually has active Indian collaboration so besides the intellectual property rights the russians don't 'own' the project...

Actually the first development stages, the major ones, were entirely funded by the Soviet Union, from 1983 until 1991. The major cost issuses since the collapse of the Soviet Union have been with developing adequate weapon systems and Radars, in which the Indians are helping to fund, not develop. So the fact is the aeroplane could be up and going, radars from previous model fighters could be installed within the MiG-1.44, which would still make it more than a match for anything else currently flying, but due to the Americans advancing the radar within the F-22 Raptor, it has called for the Russians to do the same, possibily using the current PAK-FA radar, which is in low stage development. The main problem with the MiG-1.44 is in inability to fit it with worthy engines, the engines which were fitted on the test flight not to long ago, were to specifically intended for the 1.44. The Saturn/Lyulka AL-41F engines which are being slowly produced will be the likely canditate of which will be fitted on the 1.44

As for the MiG-1.44 being produced and sold to India and/or China, total lies, utter crap. The truth is the MiG-1.44 lost to its rival the Su-37 Golden eagle. If at all it is produced It will stay within the Russian Federation. The Russians have been working on this project for 23 years, I doubt they'll let the Chinese nor the Indians get there hands on one.

With all respect to the F-22, I personally think that the MiG-1.44 would win in an aerial dogfight. The main role of the MiG-1.44 is air superiority, basically to counter the F-22. I seriously consider it defeating the F-22. But for the moment I doubt we will see that happening as the MiG-1.44 is at the moment only a testbed for such future fight planes, the PAK-FA.

The PAK-FA on the otherhand will be exported to India, which to me looks extremely impressive. I don't think the Indians are contributing to the technological side of the planes development, but quite alot of funding on Indias side has taken place.

Stick to reliable military sources for the right news.

Yes I admit that the contribution on the Indin side has been mostly monetary...but technical assistance has also been provided...

Such as ? I have seen no evidence what so ever to suggest any different to my previous post. On what grounds have the Indians contributed technologically ?

Hmmm..I did a bit of research and on the net I found vague mentions of an Indo-Soviet joint sceince and tech research/development organisation called ILTP...google for it..besides the Russian Federation themselves have declared that the T-50 will be jointly developed by India and Russia...You can google for that too...Also what is really interesting is that the SU-30MKI might be jointly marketed by India and Russia(MKI is got a lot of Indian tweaks) to countires like Malaysia and Indonesia, though the original aircraft design and intellectual property rights remain with Russia..thats quite a lot of technical assistance to me...and thats quite a lot stuff online...let me do a little offline research and see if I can come up with something with my sources/connections...Kenshin I suggest you do a bit of investigating yourself if you live in Russia..because these things will not be that prevelant online...mostly vague newspaper articles and contacts..

Btw any source on where China comes into the picture??

The link below says something about ILTP and a joint fighter collaboration right at the end.. and its Russian govt. legid so couldn't be false....

www.india.mid.ru...

The link below talks about joint marketing of the MKI which has Indian avionics and other tweaks..

iron-eagles.tripod.com...



[edit on 14-1-2005 by Daedalus3]

Neither of those links specify where India played a scientific role in the joint venture. As for your above post, I can't really work out whether or not you are talking about the PAK-FA or the MiG-1.44, if you are talking about the 1.44, sorry to sound arragont, totally wrong. The 1.44 was entirely a Russian funded and developed program. I can tell you that it was entirely funded by the Russians due to it being test flown so slowy. If India was behind some kind of major funding, the appearance of the MiG-1.44 would have been much more sooner, rather than 20 years after it was first thought of.

As for the PAK-FA, this is majorly a Russian based technology. I do not think that the Indians will contribute in the first phases of the development of PAK-FA as it is a joint development of Sukhoi & MiG, no room left for India in there. But along the line Indians technological assistance will be most likely requried for in some way modifying, for there needs, there version of PAK-FA.

As for the MKI, the ' I ' actually stands for Indian, the ' K ' stands for export and the ' M ' stands for Multi-role, I somehow thought that would be relevant to your statement:

Also what is really interesting is that the SU-30MKI might be jointly marketed by India and Russia(MKI is got a lot of Indian tweaks) to countires like Malaysia and Indonesia, though the original aircraft design and intellectual property rights remain with Russia..thats quite a lot of technical assistance to me

. As for technical assistance, what do you mean ? I never said the Indians haven't in some way assisted Russian modifications on the Su-27 family, I'm aware that they played a minor role in achieving todays Su-25 in the area of cockpit display, not quite sure.

What do you mean investigating ? actually im currently living in Tasmania, Australia. Notice the ' ex- ' just before it says ' Alyesk ', I tried to indictate that I meant previous.

Soruces:
www.globalsecurity.org...

Also just found this out, an Electronic Mock-up of the T50 (PAK-FA) has been created. For what use it will be, I have no idea, perhaps someone could enlighten me.

~ Kenshin

I remember that Ivanov recently made a public staement for the joint development of the T-50...gooogle for it..you'll get the info..as for the MiG1.44 yes I have found no information regarding direct Indian influence but as I said before the span and reach of the ILTP is quite wide and its been there since 1987 so some work must have been done on it..The problem is most of the info on the internet abou Russian projects is by western agencies and hence the whole idea is not available..thats why I said do some ground research as will I..
Also there was no active Indian collaboration in the early stages of the PAK-FA ..thats a valid staement too..but a whole decade has gone since then...
Lot can happen in a decade..

The MKI designation is for foregin export but as we all know it is superior to the Su-30 Ka and hence the joint marketing of the upgraded version...here's my personal info..A malaysian delegation was here in Pune..IAF Su-30MKI home base for the 8th October AF day celebrations to view the Su-30 MKI up close for reasons obvious..hope this isn't classified!! ..

Also the MKI holds Indian software and avionics as the above link I posted states, revealing definte Indian tweaks...

The joint fighter development cannot be possibly conceived to be finshed by 2010 unless work on the PAK-FA /T-0 has already been going on and the two governments have only now decided to go public on its joint-development..maybe for a early market awareness stunt or something..you speculate..but besides the Indians, as far as I know the Russian have had no joint collaboration with any other foreign entity on military projects ever...Give some credit to the secrecy involved in this project....much more grass root level research is due...Not all is available on the net..
You DO live in Russia don't you Kenshin??..otherwise..there is no hope for research on your part....

More links :

www.geocities.com...

paralay.narod.ru...

en.rian.ru...

If you are russian kenshin maybe you could help with the 2nd link..its in russian..

I can't seem to edit the previous post so I'll post the edit here..
EDIT: Im sorry kenshin I didn't read your previous post that indicated you were in Tasmania...I meant investigate as in look around home grown sources...library archives..defence de-classified archives, speaking to ppl who are in the relevant military branch...I will do that...

Sorry daedalus3, I think we are having a pointless arguement ( I do not know whether or not it is an arguement but I will call it one anyway ). Lets make this conversation based around the T-50 rather than the other MiG/Su's there are to many, the information is far to clustered and so on.

As for me I moved from Russia 7 years ago, Now I live in Tasmania. But still have many military sources left in Russia as my brother, who lives in Moscow. He usually sends me the most important military papers at the end of each month.

As in regard to the Russian site you gave me, I must ask, did you find that searching on google ? because that is an excellent site. If you want I could translate the major parts and PM them to you.

IMHO it was never an arguement, so there..

The site I came across first in Matej's "encylopedia of Non-American Stealth planes"..but then I came across it in another forum which was discussing the T-50 thing...I got to that forum by googling for the T-50..


Yes, yes please PM me the translation...I shall be very grateful