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Saul of Tarsus: False prophet

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posted on Feb, 22 2016 @ 08:01 AM
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a reply to: Barzini

I think I see what you're getting at, but like the others I found your OP to be confusing and illogical. Perhaps you should ask yourself a different question. What happened to James and the original leaders of the Christian Church? I'll give you a clue - Titus.




posted on Feb, 22 2016 @ 08:06 AM
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a reply to: windword

" but to fulfill". "until all is accomplished." This is a good example of Christ's 1st and 2nd advent .He is returning to fulfil all of it . Its not possible for humans to fulfil all the law . big difference in the station of man and God .



posted on Feb, 22 2016 @ 08:21 AM
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a reply to: Raggedyman

Salvation is to the jew first then the gentile.The jews are still the chosen people of God,
the church did not replace them.



posted on Feb, 22 2016 @ 08:24 AM
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a reply to: the2ofusr1




He is returning to fulfil all of it........


Is that a future event?



posted on Feb, 22 2016 @ 08:28 AM
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a reply to: windword

Here is a verse that shows that Paul was trying to get the Israelites to let go of the old covenant and adopt the new and better way...

Jer 31:31-33 the days are coming declares the Lord when I will make a new covenant with Israel and with Judah. It will not be like the covenant that I made with them when I took them by the hand out of Egypt. Because they broke my covenant even though I was a husband to them. Declares the Lord. This is the covenant I will make with them after that time declares the Lord...I will put my laws in their minds and srite it on thdir hearts. I will be their God and they will be my people...

What part of that was Paul not saying. ??



posted on Feb, 22 2016 @ 08:30 AM
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originally posted by: AngryCymraeg
a reply to: Barzini

I think I see what you're getting at, but like the others I found your OP to be confusing and illogical. Perhaps you should ask yourself a different question. What happened to James and the original leaders of the Christian Church? I'll give you a clue - Titus.



Jesus talks with John in Revelation. He has him address by letter the individual churches never naming Paul or the fact that there is a 13th Apostle. He talks about people lying about being Apostles but never says "Except Paul". He has every chance and reason to but doesn't, and The Vision of New Jerusalem is pretty 12 heavy, why do you think that is?

If you find anything I have said illogical it's on you. I think the message is clear. Jesus doesn't acknowledge Paul because he never spoke to him. Paul is a classic wolf in sheep's clothing. And a Pharisee. Of Benjamin too, how much more obvious could it be?
edit on 22-2-2016 by Barzini because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 22 2016 @ 08:37 AM
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a reply to: windword

Here lets look at some of what he fulfiled and will . ""Luk 4:17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
Luk 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
Luk 4:19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
Luk 4:20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
Luk 4:21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

This comes from what Jesus quoted from . Note He stopped short . There are things yet to fulfil . "" Isa 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
Isa 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
Isa 61:3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.
Isa 61:4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.
Isa 61:5 And strangers shall stand and feed your flocks, and the sons of the alien shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers.
Isa 61:6 But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves.
Isa 61:7 For your shame ye shall have double; and for confusion they shall rejoice in their portion: therefore in their land they shall possess the double: everlasting joy shall be unto them.
Isa 61:8 For I the LORD love judgment, I hate robbery for burnt offering; and I will direct their work in truth, and I will make an everlasting covenant with them. ""



posted on Feb, 22 2016 @ 08:38 AM
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originally posted by: the2ofusr1
a reply to: Raggedyman

One might have a hard time using the op's logic with Jesus after the resurrection showing up in the inner room or on the road .


At least you have the guts to admit it is logic. Math, really. 12=12. There isn't and can't be a 13th, it must be 12.

Paul's alleged conversion story has 3 versions, all lies. You didn't read Matthew 24:23-27.



posted on Feb, 22 2016 @ 08:41 AM
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a reply to: HarryJoy





Jer 31:31-33 the days are coming declares the Lord when I will make a new covenant with Israel and with Judah. It will not be like the covenant that I made with them when I took them by the hand out of Egypt.


First of all, The covenant that God made with Moses and his people is NOT the same covenant that God made with Abraham.

To wit:

Dueteronomy 30:19
"I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants, 20by loving the LORD your God, by obeying His voice, and by holding fast to Him; for this is your life and the length of your days, that you may live in the land which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them."


Secondly, Paul's voice hardly has the authority of a booming voice from heaven citing a new covenant, akin to the voice Abraham heard, the voice Moses and his people heard, or the people who witnessed the baptism of Jesus heard. Unless Paul can produce a sign the likes of a rainbow, a talking "Pillar of Fire" or magical talking doves over head, I'm not taking his word of his personal "New Covenant" with YHVH.

Lastly, the scripture that you cited refers to a "New Covenant" with Israel, not a covenant that changes rules so that Gentiles who are squeamish won't have to get circumcised to be adopted into the "Nation of Israel".


Exodus 12:48
(48) And when a stranger dwells with you and wants to keep the Passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as a native of the land. For no uncircumcised person shall eat it.

edit on 22-2-2016 by windword because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 22 2016 @ 09:12 AM
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a reply to: Barzini

Tell me this . The upper room incident involved Thomas and a bunch of others .The others were telling Thomas that Jesus had raised from the dead and showed Himself to them .By them telling Thomas that the Lord was there they are guilty according to your understanding of Jesus saying if they say I am here or there don't believe them . The ones saying this to Thomas would be considered false Apostals according to your understanding .

So what was the outcome in the upper room ? Did they tell Thomas the truth and did doubting Thomas become a true believer ? You cant have it both ways .Trying to do so will hurt your mind .James tells us to put off our double mindless . Its a term today called Cognitive Dissonance and it does not produce healthy thoughts .



posted on Feb, 22 2016 @ 09:22 AM
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Mamabeth makes an interesting point about Gods chosen people.
As a child I thought 'what kind of nonsense is this?' God supposedly made all humans he wouldn't then pick a group to say these are my favorites. It is a ancestral justification for land ownership. Tribalism that carries on today.
Anyway, I digress.

Paul I am no fan of. Talk about jumping on a bandwagon, he never met Jesus. I think of Paul as a lobbyist or campaign manager...if there was No Paul, we would never have heard of jesus, I doubt there would even be a foot note of this Jewish lad in the history annals.

That said, I would have hired him for a marketing team even if he was annoying as hell.

ETA: To the OP Paul wasn't aa prophet but an apostle, spreading the word of his Lord.
edit on 22-2-2016 by zazzafrazz because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 22 2016 @ 09:27 AM
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Here we go again people quoting from the New Testament as if it's fact these gospels were written years after Christs death. Academics generally agree that Matthew and Timothy were written about 60 years after and revelation 90 odd years later.
It's like me trying to write a book about the WW1 I wouldn't be able to get anything like the true story.



posted on Feb, 22 2016 @ 09:29 AM
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a reply to: the2ofusr1




The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
Luk 4:19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
Luk 4:20 And he closed the book,


And, supposedly, that's what Jesus did. He preached forgiveness and healed people. He closed the book before declaring himself anything more than a prophet.



posted on Feb, 22 2016 @ 09:39 AM
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a reply to: windword

You could say there was a lot He didn't say on that day . He didn't say to inflect vengeance which is part of the what will be fulfilled know as The Day of The Lord and found through out the scriptures . Even the Jews were familiar with the suffering Messiah and the conquering Messiah but were hoping for the conquering one at the time . Ben David and Ben Joseph is how they categorise the two .



posted on Feb, 22 2016 @ 09:59 AM
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originally posted by: HarryJoy
Wow !!! What is it with all the hating on Paul around here...? Why don't you deal with the teachings of Paul that you have a problem with ? Then maybe we can begin to understand the REAL problem..!!

Show us some teaching or doctrinal position held by Paul that is not taught elsewhere in the bible ?? Can you do that please ?....so we can understand the problem .



Because it's the doctrine of Grace for the gentiles (nations). They reject Paul, because they want to disprove Grace for the Gentile. Too bad the Torah speaks of it as well. But, they want to reject the entire doctrine of Grace, so they begin with Paul.

Paul got his information straight from God, and God spoke straight from the Torah.

Jeremiah 4:4 Circumcise yourselves to the Lord, circumcise your hearts, you people of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem, or my wrath will flare up and burn like fire because of the evil you have done— burn with no one to quench it.

Jeremiah 9:25-26 Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will punish all those who are circumcised merely in the flesh — Egypt, Judah, Edom, the sons of Ammon, Moab, and all who dwell in the desert who cut the corners of their hair, for all these nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Israel are uncircumcised in heart.

God said to Abraham Genesis 12 - 2-3 - I will make you into a great nation,and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you

All the people's of the earth include the Jews and Gentiles both, and there was a plan for that. It is called the doctrine of Grace.

Abraham was given circumcision, not before he had obeyed God, but after, as a sign of his heart's condition. He was not circumcised and then obeyed God as a result but obeyed and then given circumcision as a sign of remembrance of that obedience.

Acts 11 The apostles and the believers throughout Judea heard that the Gentiles also had received the word of God. 2 So when Peter went up to Jerusalem, the circumcised believers criticized him 3 and said, “You went into the house of uncircumcised men and ate with them.”

4 Starting from the beginning, Peter told them the whole story: 5 “I was in the city of Joppa praying, and in a trance I saw a vision. I saw something like a large sheet being let down from heaven by its four corners, and it came down to where I was. 6 I looked into it and saw four-footed animals of the earth, wild beasts, reptiles and birds. 7 Then I heard a voice telling me, ‘Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.’

8 “I replied, ‘Surely not, Lord! Nothing impure or unclean has ever entered my mouth.’

9 “The voice spoke from heaven a second time, ‘Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.’ 10 This happened three times, and then it was all pulled up to heaven again.

11 “Right then three men who had been sent to me from Caesarea stopped at the house where I was staying. 12 The Spirit told me to have no hesitation about going with them. These six brothers also went with me, and we entered the man’s house. 13 He told us how he had seen an angel appear in his house and say, ‘Send to Joppa for Simon who is called Peter. 14 He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved.’

15 “As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning. 16 Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized withwater, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 So if God gave them the same gift he gave us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could stand in God’s way?”

(please note if you go back and read the actual incident, Peter circumcised none of them who were baptized in the Holy Spirit, only gave them water baptism.)

18 When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, even to Gentiles God has granted repentance that leads to life.”

This was Peter, not Paul. But people like to overlook the fact that Paul disagreed with the disciples stopping doing what they already knew God had shown them, and commanded them.

BTW, none of them died without love for each other, what they all were was people who sometimes have a tendency to see things according to their limited view, but God helps us out and teaches us through it.

But I think the attack on Paul, is a direct attack on the doctrine of Grace, and the Word of God as a whole, confuse someone as to the validity of a part, and you can get them to walk away from the whole thing. It is a spiritual warfare we are in, with people doing their utmost to discredit God and His Word.

What we are assured of, is that God will not allow even one of His own to be lost.

John 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me.

And this is the will of him (the Father) that sent me, that (with reference to) all that he hath given me I should not lose anything, any fragment of it; i.e. from the entire mass of humanity thus given to me as the guerdon of my sacrificial work, given by the inward working of Divine grace which issues in their coming and reaching me, no solitary soul should be plucked out of my hand - should be let slip away into perdition or destruction. The claim of a Divine authority and absolute power could not be put more strongly.
edit on 22-2-2016 by Kitana because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 22 2016 @ 10:03 AM
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originally posted by: HarryJoy
Wow !!! What is it with all the hating on Paul around here...? Why don't you deal with the teachings of Paul that you have a problem with ? Then maybe we can begin to understand the REAL problem..!!

Show us some teaching or doctrinal position held by Paul that is not taught elsewhere in the bible ?? Can you do that please ?....so we can understand the problem .


Why bother with Paul when he never actually met Jesus and was responsible for altering the early church and its policies?

The truth is that despite Paul's relevance in the religion, his contributions to Christianity paved the way for a further 2000 years of its perversion. Early Christianity was distinctly Jewish. Early followers practiced strict Jewish customs under Jesus, and they continued to do so under his brother James. It was only after Paul came along, did the Jewish customs lighten up and the sect, open. Jewish customs were still practiced for a few hundred years in specific communities, until the denomination propagated by Paul eventually turned around as the Catholic Church and declared them heretics.



posted on Feb, 22 2016 @ 10:14 AM
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a reply to: windword

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Circumcision nor uncircumcision of the flesh is what matters, but circumcision of the heart. This is taught by more than just Paul, but Peter, and Jesus as well when Jesus told the Pharisees they were sons of their father the devil, (notice they were in fact circumcised)

You can read my post at that link if you like.



posted on Feb, 22 2016 @ 11:00 AM
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Yessirr.Paul is the 12th....mankind is not allowed to vote in the 12th, as they did.....Paul plowed deep, huh!!!!



posted on Feb, 22 2016 @ 11:00 AM
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originally posted by: the2ofusr1
a reply to: Barzini

Didn't the apostles tell Thomas that they had seen the risen Christ and didn't Thomas say he wouldn't believe it unless he seen it for himself .wasn't he in the upper room when Christ appeared to them again ? Jesus must have meant something other then what you thought he said for the upper room incident to have happened .


Doubting Thomas is irrelevant in determining wether or not Paul was an Apostle. Paul is the only person aside from Luke who ever calls him Apostle. Show me anyone else who called him that and no Jesus didn't, I submit that is a lie told by Paul that never happened.



posted on Feb, 22 2016 @ 11:02 AM
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originally posted by: GBP/JPY
Yessirr.Paul is the 12th....mankind is not allowed to vote in the 12th, as they did.....Paul plowed deep, huh!!!!


Factually untrue. Jesus never said Matthias Apolstleship was inqquestion Matthias appointment was legitimate. Prove otherwise.



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