The death of the Hadith, and the rise of excommunication in Islam.

originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs

originally posted by: Abysha
a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

Yes, an Islam without the Ulama and Hadith would change the world.

Yes, and to be perfectly honest I'd prefer "anarchy" during salat than anarchy across the world due to the words of men who lived 250 years after the Prophet passed away.


I've never come to terms with that fact, as if they weren't important enough to put down on paper for 250 years and all of a sudden it's detrimental to understanding the Quran.

I think that fallacy has a name, but I can't think of it.

Hah! No doubt. Christians and Jews face a similar problem to varying extents.

Even my own path has issues with "scholars" trying to tell others how to interpret matters of the spirit. The difference is that my beliefs don't influence the majority of Earthlings (like the Abrahamic faiths do).

When people are so critical of Islam, Christianity, and Judaism, it is because of this influence. If Islam was practiced in some tiny nation and nowhere else, people wouldn't care. If Christianity was contained in a small European city state with no influence, people wouldn't care. It is the reason we should all care and identify what it is about these faiths that make them harmful to humanity and what it is about them that uplift and benefit society.

originally posted by: Sahabi
a reply to: Abysha

Before the Hadith, Muslim simply copied Muhammad. After Muhammad, the Muslims copied their leaders. All of this copying, imitating, and explanation set the foundation for the Hadith. We could just go back to blindly imitating if that is preferable to written doctrine.

That's not how the Hadith started. It started because there were questions the original Khalifas didn't feel qualified to answer and Omar (I think) started telling people to collect anything they could remember Muhammad saying that might be relevant. This is ALL extra-Quranical and wasn't considered necessary until then.

a reply to: Abysha

The striving to imitate Muhammad and the explanations of his actions, words, approvals, and disapprovals did lay the foundations for the Hadith. I am not here to argue the authenticity of Hadith, for I am but a humble apostate.

a reply to: Sahabi

How can a mosque full of believers coordinate their congregational prayers if the specifics are missing from the Qur'an? Without proper guidelines, anyone could just pray whichever way they want.

I understand that it might be nice to be synchronized to create a feeling of belonging and doing it in a traditional way as it always have been done can make a person feel like some things are the same in a changing experience.

But what if we allow individual experimentation for those who want it while making sure they do not disturb others. Is not the Dervishes Whirling Dance in itself a physical prayer.

a reply to: Sahabi

There is nothing wrong with being a devotee. As long as being a devotee is properly understood as what it is all about.

Certain tribes do have certain needs, wants and desires. That's natural. But what these needs, wants and desires are all about should be understood properly by the devotees, I think. But is that the case? And if not, why not?

The controllers giving up their tools to control the brain dead masses???

Never gonna happen.

You need to go a step further, this specific religious system was created by a warlord who needed to have subdued subjects to achieve its goals. It popped into existence 1600 years ago, which proves it is nothing more than a construct of man. It opposed the Byzantine Roman rule, which was its purpose. That purpose no longer exists therefore it is a relic of the past with no foundation beyond 1600 years ago. Probably why the ISIS nutcases are blowing up any historical artifacts which shows there was a time before they existed.

a reply to: LittleByLittle

Out of all Islamic methodologies, the traditions of the Sufis are my favorite. However, from a traditional Islamic view point, the Sufi traditions are outside the fold of Islam, being considered innovations and corruptions. I tend to side with the speculation that the foundations of Sufism actually predates Muhammadan Islam by a wide margin, sharing many aspects with ancient mysticism, esoterism, and occultism.

a reply to: Sahabi

I agree on that what ever is called Islam is much older than what is called "the muslim world". And here is why I think so:

Rastak Band - Sornaye Norouz رسـتاک - سـرنـای نـوروز :

www.youtube.com...

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

From my very limited understanding that's quite a courageous position to take. What kind of backlash could a person expect for making statements like that in public? Are these discussions that are going on internally within muslim communities or do they tend to be stifled?

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs
Let me ask you a question. Head for head, is the Hadith more barbarous than the old testament? Is a book that documents the history of a faith really the problem? If it was we would have disowned the bible long ago.

The Hadith does sound like a violent book. So is the bible, which climaxes with a people murdering their Messiah, who is actually God.

Genocide, infanticide, AND deicide are all acts comitted by people and God in the bible.

Back to the hadith. It's not the Koran, I liken it to the writings of Paul. Unnecessary to morality, kind of disturbing, but not going anywhere anytime soon.

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

Amen to the death of the Hadith. The death of the Hadith could be called the beginning of life for many.

originally posted by: Sahabi
a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

May I inquire,..... without the Hadith, how does one know the exact sequence of specific postures, specific phrases, and specific dua to recite during prayers?

Why do you make rituals equal to faith? Mohammed did not make rituals equal to faith.

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

It was predicted that the military minded (Babylonians) and their twisted religions would continue until the next age.

Only by eliminating the Hadith, Talmud, and the Trinity can the 3 Brothers be untied in the Messiah, Jesus Christ.

a reply to: Isurrender73
Hadith is definitely unnecessary to the faith. Rituals, aside from the five pillars of Islam are unnecessary. Islam was designed to be very easy and purely taught, is. American Islam is different than Sharia Islam in Iran. American Muslims are glad to be here.

a reply to: Isurrender73

According to the Encyclopedia Brittanica;

Ritual:

"the performance of ceremonial acts prescribed by tradition or by sacerdotal decree. Ritual is a specific, observable mode of behaviour exhibited by all known societies. It is thus possible to view ritual as a way of defining or describing humans."

I do believe that the Islamic pillars of Prayer (salah) and Pilgrimage (hajj) include ritual. Additionally, wudhu (ablution) and ghusl (bathing) are Islamic rituals of purification. As the Qur'an prescribes Islamic methodologies to most aspects religious, personal, family, societal, and governmental, Islam is surely a full system of ritual.

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

he will someday come, and the world will fall at his feet. But beware of the one who comes in the name of peace, because peace will not be found in him and you will find that truth out too late.

I feel sorry for you, truly I do.

originally posted by: Kitana
a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

he will someday come, and the world will fall at his feet. But beware of the one who comes in the name of peace, because peace will not be found in him and you will find that truth out too late.

I feel sorry for you, truly I do.

Why do you feel sorry for this person, is something bad going to happen? If so, what, specifically?

Sounds like you're threatening someone. With what, hell?

Not your decision.

a reply to: Sahabi

Yes, but Mohammed said that even the pillars shouldn't be considered a burden.

All the pillars can be broken by Muslims.
1. It is acceptable to denounce Islam with your mouth as long you keep it in your heart. Allah does not wish to put you in danger.

2. Prayer can be modified or abandoned when praying would be considered dangerous or during time of war. Although Mohammed said it was beneficial to pray during time of war whenever it's possible.

3. The needy are not required to give to themselves, yet they can still be Islam and Muslims.

4. It is permitted to forgo the fast of Ramadan for various reasons.

5. The pilgrimage is only required for those who have the means.

Faith is more important than rituals.

Rituals are community engagements that serve to remind us that God both loves us and watches over us, and that his words have been preserved through the prophets.

The Quran says all the prophets are equal, all brought the word of God to man, and none of his words have been corrupted. The three are made one by the Light, the Firstborn son, Jesus Christ. There is no other Messiah.

Islam - To Surrender ones wil to Allah/God. Many are Islam who do not claim Islam, but only followers of the Quran are Muslims.

a reply to: Isurrender73

You know more about Islam than I, but I agree with what you say about simplicity and burdens. Spot on.

a reply to: Isurrender73

Very beautifully said

However, my remark was regarding "ritual", not "burden". My postings in this thread are to question how such Qur'anic rituals are to be practiced in community, congregation, and in cohesive unison without the supplemental instruction of the Hadith. Regarding Islamic rituals, the Qur'an is extremely vague, and it is only the Hadith that gives specific instruction.