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A not so angry rant about GENDER. Does it promote Order and Organization? Or an outdated society?

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posted on Feb, 21 2016 @ 11:24 AM
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originally posted by: bobs_uruncle

originally posted by: NateTheAnimator
a reply to: Delteis




So the golden question is--how do we classify people like Bruce?


She's a transsexual female... What more is there to classify?


No, it's a male with fake or restructured parts to "appear" female. It's genetics are male, it's really very very simple. Anything else is delusional.

Cheers - Dave

no, its a male with some hormones to grow some breasts...he still has a kit.

I go with whatever the drivers license says. sex has actually only 1 qualifier...penis: yes or no.

the gender however is female obviously..but gender isn't biological sex.




posted on Feb, 21 2016 @ 11:28 AM
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originally posted by: NateTheAnimator
a reply to: Delteis

So your attempting to find some sort of societal consensus on how we should classify transsexuals?

Good luck with that.

Actually its already been established.
at least in the west.
the prison system does well here...pre-ops go to their biological sex prison and hormone therapy removed.
post-op goes to their new gender.

I roll with that. I dont accept trans as an identity, I accept it as the word means..transitioning, but until thats completed (aka, things reworked) then they are whatever their bits say.



posted on Feb, 21 2016 @ 11:41 AM
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originally posted by: SaturnFX

originally posted by: bobs_uruncle

originally posted by: NateTheAnimator
a reply to: Delteis




So the golden question is--how do we classify people like Bruce?


She's a transsexual female... What more is there to classify?


No, it's a male with fake or restructured parts to "appear" female. It's genetics are male, it's really very very simple. Anything else is delusional.

Cheers - Dave

no, its a male with some hormones to grow some breasts...he still has a kit.

I go with whatever the drivers license says. sex has actually only 1 qualifier...penis: yes or no.

the gender however is female obviously..but gender isn't biological sex.


Why is that, because you say so?

Because gender is based on sex organs, not psychosis derived want of being a different sex.



posted on Feb, 21 2016 @ 12:56 PM
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originally posted by: Sargeras

originally posted by: SaturnFX

originally posted by: bobs_uruncle

originally posted by: NateTheAnimator
a reply to: Delteis




So the golden question is--how do we classify people like Bruce?


She's a transsexual female... What more is there to classify?


No, it's a male with fake or restructured parts to "appear" female. It's genetics are male, it's really very very simple. Anything else is delusional.

Cheers - Dave

no, its a male with some hormones to grow some breasts...he still has a kit.

I go with whatever the drivers license says. sex has actually only 1 qualifier...penis: yes or no.

the gender however is female obviously..but gender isn't biological sex.


Why is that, because you say so?

Because gender is based on sex organs, not psychosis derived want of being a different sex.

I think you are confused
gender by definition:

gender
See definition in Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary
Syllabification: gen·der
Pronunciation: /ˈjendər/
Definition of gender in English:
noun

1The state of being male or female (typically used with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones):

So its more the social element of masculine or feminine norms verses the sex of the person

so no, not because I say so, its because its how its defined
gender is based on..as you put it..psychosis.
aka, the affinity one has with masculine or feminine..which undoubtedly is almost always lead by the nature and nurture combo of individuals based on their sex, however, there appears to be crossover here.

Now, you can of course have your opinions on things, thats fine, you can think gay people are abnormals, trans are mentally disturbed, black people are evil, etc...but all of that means little when you bring up things like definition and science that counters.



posted on Feb, 21 2016 @ 03:57 PM
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a reply to: SaturnFX

Well it wasn't your unwarranted and overly sarcastic post.

Thanks, I guess. You really did a number on me there doctor. I could counter how I dislike those who try to profile people based on one response and who then take 'their' high-ground and run with it.

I was speaking from experience on this site, and these topics always create tension and/or end up with people fighting, like when you basically just accused me of all sorts......

I'm not in the prison system.

How does this = diversion? Well it's about 1 1/2 of 1% of people it effects yet everyone's talking about it. I didn't say it wasn't important, but it's not very relevant.

I don't care what others want for themselves, only if they try to force me to be okay with it.

I'll finish this up, who put sand in your sandwich today?



posted on Feb, 21 2016 @ 04:54 PM
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For a man to become a women, or a women become a man, its a lengthy process.
I do not believe that they just wake up one day and decide they want to be the opposite. I have to believe them when they say they feel it for a long time.
Maybe its a birth defect. Maybe not. Some people say its a mental illness and they should be treated, but I dont know about that one.

The process is a long one. As far as I know, you are seen many times by a doctor and Im pretty sure you have therapy too before they even give you the medication to begin the transition. Then they are on hormones for quite a while before they can have any kind of reassignment surgery.
And as far as I know you have to under go all of those before you can legally change your sex and are legally seen as the opposite sex to that you were born.
I feel personally that I am ok with someone who is transgender using the same bathroom as me. I know not all females feel the same as me. So im not sure exactly how we go about it.

Perhaps as the generations get older it will all flatten out and there will be something new for everyone to freak out about and feel weird over.

As for what they should be called, I know they have come up with their own system (which I find highly confusing) where you essentially say your gender and if you were born that way or not. Im not sure if you have all seen people using the word CIS or Cisgender.
Essentially meaning someone who experiences of their own gender agree with the sex they were assigned at birth. Its suppose to be the opposite of transgender. which is someone whose experiences of their own gender do not agree with what they are assigned at birth.
I find it all a little over the top but perhaps since words mean so much to people we do need words to describe it all.

One thing for sure is that I am glad that I was born female and completely happy to be female.



posted on Feb, 21 2016 @ 04:56 PM
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I will add that it annoys me when people who are trans-gendered say things like 'You dont know what it feels like to be unhappy with the body you were born in"

uhh.... i feel like most people at one stage or another might hate the way they look or wish the looked different. I do actually know what it feels like. -_- Welcome to being human. Our bodies are fking weird.



posted on Feb, 21 2016 @ 05:57 PM
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I'm not quite sure how to jump into this discussion in an informative way as the degree of close-mindedness, misinformation or lack of information is already quite apparent but on the off chance some may be willing to learn or expand their understanding, I will give it a try anyway just in case. My aim here is to bring some facts, awareness and knowledge to the table for those that may be open to it or interested but do realize those with strong political or religious convictions won't listen, care or be swayed in their opinions but as a firm believer in this site's motto, I feel it is my duty to help others deny ignorance. Disclaimer: I am well studied and well versed in this topic and consider myself a supporter, advocate and ally to transgender and gender non-conforming youth and their families and am involved with several organizations dealing with these issues. My statements will be supported by science, research and the current medical consensus and understanding of this topic but won't deny any opinions that I may express won't be filtered through the lens of someone that has been interested in this for a very long time. A review of my post history should give an indication of how or where I stand on this issue.

To have a productive discussion, understanding of the terminology of gender and sex is crucial as is knowledge of biology beyond what was taught in eighth grade health class or gleaned from an out of date dictionary. The words sex and gender do not mean the same thing as language and understanding of these differences advance. Gender is one of, if not the core foundations of personality. Gender itself can be broken down into several components such as gender role, gender expression and gender identity and terms like boy/girl, man/woman or masculine/feminine references to it. Sex refers to our biology, reproductive capacity, anatomy or in other words, our physical selves and science and medicine has proven that chromosomes, penises, vaginas, ovaries and testicles are not the clear delineators of sex once thought to be. Roughly 1 in 1500 to 2000 births, a specialist in sex differentiation is called in to make a determination of a child's sex but a lot more people than that are born with subtler forms of sex anatomy variations, some of which won’t show up until later in life. For more information on this, visit the Intersex Society of North America's FAQ on How common is intersex? www.isna.org...

We may be born with genetic predispositions toward certain personality traits or temperaments just as we are born with a propensity for language, facial recognition and other things that make us human as well. Back to the facets of what we call gender...we may be born with certain predispositions of gendered behaviors and personality but these factors are not automatically present at birth revealing themselves only as a child develops and grows. While definitely not of the belief that we are born as completely blank states and that gender is purely a social construct, it seems silly to deny that cultural influences may have an impact on our gendered expressions and gender roles as well so I won't. How we experience our own gender internally or what we believe our own self to be is called our gender identity regardless of how it is expressed outwardly and everyone has one. Our gender expression is how we look, dress, wear our hair and act as it is observed by others whether it matches our own internal identity or not. Gender identity, although usually aligned with one's sex as assigned by a doctor at birth based on observed physical characteristics is developed in children in stages between the ages of two and five years old. Most young children at this age are clearly able to verbalize if they are boys or girls and understand the expectations of gendered behavior roles and exhibit traditional or typical expressions. Who can't say they have their own notions of how little boys and little girls are "supposed" to act and behave or made observations of how boys may prefer playing with trucks and competitive rough and tumble games or that girls may prefer dolls, dressing up and more social and nurturing activities.

Who also can't say they are unaware of girls that like boys things and activities too? Socially and culturally, we're much more forgiving of tomboys than we are with sissies, pansies, wimps or queer little boys that express femininity or exhibit atypical gendered behaviors. The terms "effeminate" and sissy have negative connotations. What has come to be recognized, particularly by millennials, science, medicine and research is that gender is far from a black and white, either/or binary but rather a spectrum or range of expressions, behaviors and identities. Some of the terms we now use to explain these varieties or points along the diverse spectrum of gender are gender fluid, gender queer, gender non-conforming, gender expansive, bi-gender, 2-spirited or agender, non-gendered or both genders or neither gender. These can be gender identities, gender expressions or either or both. Fun huh and things usually incomprehensible to Boomers and Gen-X'ers.

When we bring the term transgender into a discussion things turn into a messy debate and confusion as it is a very nebulous umbrella term that means something a little different to most people that use it and the language is constantly evolving and changing. Basically, if one's gender identity or gender expression or role falls outside of the cisnormative binary, they fall under the transgender umbrella. Not all transgender people feel they are in the wrong body or have the need for medical intervention. Some transgender people may feel a disconnect or discomfort between their anatomical/biological sex or their gender role and how they are perceived by others and may make a part-time or full-time transition expressing themselves or presenting socially as the gender opposite than their sex assigned at birth. Not all transgender people transition. Some may be more comfortable somewhere in the middle and not necessarily identify as a man or as woman. It is all very nuanced and unique to the individual.

Some people under the transgender umbrella, but not all may experience Gender Dysphoria which is defined as the discomfort or anxiety that arises and persists when there is discordance between assigned sex at birth and internal experience of gender that results in an impairment of function. The degree of this dysphoria can be a mildly annoying nuisance or it can be immobilizing, crushing and life-threatening if not treated but it is not considered a mental illness or psychosis or pathological.

Beyond the cultural aspects of gender expression and being perceived socially as the gender (boy/girl, man/woman) that aligns with one's own feeling of what they are (their gender identity) some transgender people also feel a great deal of dysphoria about their bodies not fitting who they know themselves to be and do seek and require medical intervention. The terminology is in flux and comes and goes depending on who you ask but often, people that do transition full-time and have medical assistance usually with therapy, hormones and sometimes surgery are referred to as transsexual.

Continued below-
edit on 2/21/2016 by Freija because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 21 2016 @ 05:57 PM
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Continued --

Others, and particularly the scientific and medical communities reserve the word transsexual for those that have undergone complete social and medical transition including genital surgery which in the trans vernacular is known as SRS (sex reassignment surgery), GRS (gender reassignment surgery) or GCS (gender confirmation surgery) - anything but "sex change".

For some transsexual or transgender people, being trans is their identity especially if they fall outside of the man/woman or even male/female paradigm. For many or most transsexual people, they do identify as just being a man or a woman and not as a trans man or trans woman and want only to quietly fit into society and life as regular folks. It is not up to other people to tell someone what they are supposed to be, who they are or how they identify or what they call themselves.

This is all very complicated, difficult to explain and even harder to understand for most people particularly when the primary source of information is tabloids, she-male porn, urban tales and the media in general. True understanding doesn't usually come unless you have to deal with a trans child, parent or sibling or get to know a trans person well that is willing to discuss it. Trans men are men and trans women are women. In my dealings with parents of transgender children, often from strongly religious or conservative backgrounds that face the prospect of learning the ins and outs of all of this or rejecting and abandoning their children, I know how hard it is to accept the whole thing. Those that do set aside their preconceptions, misinformation and prejudices that love, accept and affirm their kids for who they are serve as testimony that it is possible to learn about and understand the whole trans thing. How about some of you folks here try to do the same thing. Ask any question you want and I will try to answer to the best of my ability.

Thank you for reading, your consideration and further discussion and apologies for the lengthy post. For more information and things to ponder and think about, review the links below.

A Basic Transgender FAQ

Understanding Transgender People FAQ

American Psychological Assoc. - What does transgender mean?

How can a trans woman know what it is like to be a woman?

For a comprehensive and detailed look and the consensus of the medical and psychiatric communities and the recommended standards of care for dealing with and treating transgender and transsexual men, women and children, download and review this PDF.

World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH)

edit on 2/21/2016 by Freija because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 21 2016 @ 06:53 PM
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We can all agree that gender roles are a social construct in western culture. In other cultures there are more than two genders. Native americans have a gender called two spirit, and duality in feminine and masculine is seen as holy in some religions. Caitlyn Jenner is a crap example for the transgender community and there are transwomen way more deserving than her. Transition from one gender to the other is hard. Really freakin hard. Respect trans people.

Edit: Its not a mental illness, GID (gender identity disorder) has been taken out of the DSM and misinformation is extremely common online.
edit on 21-2-2016 by themagpie because: i added some stuff



posted on Feb, 21 2016 @ 07:44 PM
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originally posted by: themagpie
We can all agree that gender roles are a social construct in western culture.

No we cant.
Not exactly anyhow. gender roles are not specifically a construct in culture, it is I would say heavily influenced by sex. we are a sexually dymorphic species and the two seperate sexes have biological norms that are displayed as a gender norm...this is more powerful overall than society norms (men wear blue, women wear pink).
So, the roles is more an observation than a construct for the majority.

Any suggestion that any/all gender norms are purely made up is to actually dismiss the claims of a trans person who suggests they are a female in a males body due to a realization they displayed almost perfect syncronicity with the female gender norms than the male


In other cultures there are more than two genders. Native americans have a gender called two spirit, and duality in feminine and masculine is seen as holy in some religions.

thats most likely a hermaphrodite..all over the world there have been anomonies in nature, this is of course put into its mythos.
there are two genders in our species (I dismiss asexual claims..lacking a drive to have sex with people isn't asexuality, thats just finding it boring and/or too lazy/scared). Now, the concept is trans people have a sex, but their..mental and arguably physical (neural) draws are actually female. This should be something you can actually detect in the brain, it should be different than a typical mans brain.
and it has been
Trans brains are different than norms


Respect trans people.

Edit: Its not a mental illness, GID (gender identity disorder) has been taken out of the DSM and misinformation is extremely common online.


Well, I respect people overall equally, as for person to person, that depends on the person obviously, nobody gets kiddy gloves because of identification, defect, disorder, orientation, etc...
the merit of a person comes from how they handle themself. I have a couple trans friends on the twitters who I enjoy speaking with. they rarely bring their trans status up, only when relevant..one, a artist, brought her transition up when Bowie died and talked about how influencial he was to her life back when she was a he but with such intense disassociation with his identity kinda thing.

I have also on twitter seen trans people using trans as a shield for any criticism and pushing a victim identity because of simply being trans..screaming about how the internet is mean to trans people because of their harassment...
..they are being harassed not because they are trans mind you, but because they are intolerable loathsome pr--ks who regardless of situation in life, would attract the harassment just because of how they are, not who they are.

Be who you want to be, and be treated as you deserve is my motto for such situations.



posted on Feb, 21 2016 @ 07:55 PM
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If the singularity ever comes with nano-manipulation and all the conditions that satisfy the transhumanist ideals, then all bets are off. Not only variations on the human form, but also robotic or other currently non-human forms. Whatever pleases you if you have the means. (The meme joke about sexually identifying as "attack helicopter" may not be all that far off.) If you think it's awkward now, think about how odd and weird things will be if that ever happens. Society might end up more segmented than the male/female we have now. (But at least in that case it's no longer entirely random. It'll probably depend on wealth or if money is less of a thing - some other form of social ranking.)

Not saying it's good or bad. But if you could do things where your lifespan isn't definitively less than 100 years on average as the aging problem is solved, I suspect a lot of people would get bored with how they currently are and have to re-invent themselves - in quite the literal sense every now and then.



posted on Feb, 21 2016 @ 08:22 PM
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originally posted by: SaturnFX

originally posted by: bobs_uruncle

originally posted by: NateTheAnimator
a reply to: Delteis




So the golden question is--how do we classify people like Bruce?


She's a transsexual female... What more is there to classify?


No, it's a male with fake or restructured parts to "appear" female. It's genetics are male, it's really very very simple. Anything else is delusional.

Cheers - Dave

no, its a male with some hormones to grow some breasts...he still has a kit.

I go with whatever the drivers license says. sex has actually only 1 qualifier...penis: yes or no.

the gender however is female obviously..but gender isn't biological sex.


You can accessorize a man with a wig, dress, makeup and whatever you want to make them look like a woman, it's still just accessories. The same applies physically, you can add bits or take them away from your meat puppet, it's still just accessories. Gender is programmed in the DNA. Until they create a viral device to carry a controlled genetic payload that will modify a person's DNA to physically change gender, male is male and female is female.

Cheers - Dave
edit on 2/21.2016 by bobs_uruncle because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 21 2016 @ 08:47 PM
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originally posted by: bobs_uruncle

originally posted by: SaturnFX

originally posted by: bobs_uruncle

originally posted by: NateTheAnimator
a reply to: Delteis




So the golden question is--how do we classify people like Bruce?


She's a transsexual female... What more is there to classify?


No, it's a male with fake or restructured parts to "appear" female. It's genetics are male, it's really very very simple. Anything else is delusional.

Cheers - Dave

no, its a male with some hormones to grow some breasts...he still has a kit.

I go with whatever the drivers license says. sex has actually only 1 qualifier...penis: yes or no.

the gender however is female obviously..but gender isn't biological sex.


You can accessorize a man with a wig, dress, makeup and whatever you want to make them look like a woman, it's still just accessories. The same applies physically, you can add bits or take them away from your meat puppet, it's still just accessories. Gender is programmed in the DNA. Until they create a viral device to carry a controlled genetic payload that will modify a person's DNA to physically change gender, male is male and female is female.

Cheers - Dave

by definition, sex is programmed in the dna, gender is a summation of what traits are common in the sex groups
therefore gender can have fluctuations occasionally as it is going with majority.

You can change gender, you can identify as a gendered woman, can slice and dice and look exactly like one..its easy

sex...gonna have to wait a bit longer. I know work is being done with stem cells and other areas of gene therapy, but for now, its a few decades away.
in a hundred years, people will swap sex out as easy as one swaps out a pair of jeans, then such discussions will be moot..I would love to see such an age, then you just become attracted to people and identify how you fit best verses our biological constraints today...what a excellent time that may be.



posted on Feb, 21 2016 @ 09:56 PM
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Well, I've gone back through and re-read this thread instead of going outside and doing the yard work that's been neglected while I spent the afternoon writing a TL;DR wall of text and wanted to follow up with some individual comments to help promote the chaos and confusion and destroy the nuclear family and the American way of life [/s].

Actually, I see a few comments that are either not quite correct or flat out wrong and want to point out a few things that people might not be aware of and things people conscious of social politeness might wish to think about in their wording of things?



>> So the golden question is--how do we classify people like Bruce?

She's a transsexual female... What more is there to classify?

By the conventions of the day, Caitlyn Jenner should be referred to as a transgender woman and unless you want to be questioned about and have a public discussion over your genitalia, it is really uncouth to conjecture about Jenner's or any other trans person's "kit". If we talked about your wife or mother's bits on the Internet or in casual conversation, I'm guessing you would likely find it disrespectful?


originally posted by: Sargeras
Because he is not a female period!!!

If he just disappears, and 20 years from now they find his skeleton in a ditch somewhere , they will state flat out, it was a man, because he is biologally a man.

He might have mutilated his genitals, because of some psychosis he has, but he is still a man.

Ah yes, the "DNA" argument. And that matters how? Have you ever had a karotype test? Are you a man? Do you have proof? After all, these things are invisible? Do you have a microscope and if your bones were in a ditch somewhere in 20 years do you really think you'd care? I try to not be combative but this stale argument simply fails due to irrelevancy .


originally posted by: infolurker
The new definition of Gender:

Gender is our social and legal status as girls and boys, women and men.

Gender identity is how you feel about and express your gender.

You got gender identity right - it is the internalized sense of what we feel ourselves to be. Gender expression is how we show ourselves externally to the world through appearance and manner. In the case of transgender people, this is the source of social conflict they feel and why you hear the phrase that transitioning allows them to live as their "authentic self". Who they feel themselves to be and how others perceive them comes into alignment.

Gender roles are the stereotypical societal and cultural expectations of what we think men and women should do or do. Men should be construction workers and truck drivers and CEO's and women should be mommies and secretaries and nurses. Of course, it isn't the 1950's anymore and the rigid rules of older generations seem kind of silly in this day and age. This whole trans business and issues of acceptance will seem equally silly at some point.


originally posted by: ketsuko
As an editor and proofreader, I do not even want to begin to imagine the nightmares this would cause someone in my profession!

And honestly, I think we kind of need male/female terminology in our language too.

There should be no fear of the male/female binary disappearing anytime soon or ever but as a proofreader, you should realize that language changes and evolves as does society and culture. To do your job effectively, you'd better keep up. The gender neutral they/them is and has been in use forever and not terribly difficult to adapt to, however, you should probably expect to familiarize yourself with the new ones and respect people's wishes on which ones to use. Maybe checking out the Gender Neutral Pronoun Blog would help? Disclaimer: they confuse the hell out of me too and are somewhat awkward.


originally posted by: SaturnFX
I go with whatever the drivers license says. sex has actually only 1 qualifier...penis: yes or no.

This is actually not quite correct and requirements vary by state. Identity documents are a big issue to trans people and many states do not require SRS to change driver's licenses and some do not require it to change birth certificates. For more information on your region, check out the interactive map from the Transgender Legal Services network as posted on the National Center for Transgender Equality's website.


Actually its already been established at least in the west. the prison system does well here...pre-ops go to their biological sex prison and hormone therapy removed. post-op goes to their new gender

I'm not quite sure where "here" is for you but you may want to check your facts? After two recent transgender deaths in the UK prison system and public outrage against Tara Hudson's incarceration in a men's prison, the whole treatment of trans prisoners in the UK is under revision. Many US locales take each case on an individual basis and allow a prisoner to maintain whatever state of transition they are in at the time of incarceration or more. Take Chelsea Manning for example. She's in a totally messed up situation but still provided hormones. There's also the recent case of Ashley Diamond that just won a $250,000 settlement against the state of Georgia for not providing adequate medical for transgender inmates. Okay, it's BuzzFeed, the ass cancer of the Internet as recently pointed out but the story is here if you are interested.

There have been some good thoughts and comments in this thread and I do have more things to add but man, I'm starving and have to go fix something to eat.

Back later. Thanks for reading.



posted on Feb, 21 2016 @ 11:37 PM
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originally posted by: Freija

originally posted by: SaturnFX
I go with whatever the drivers license says. sex has actually only 1 qualifier...penis: yes or no.

This is actually not quite correct and requirements vary by state. Identity documents are a big issue to trans people and many states do not require SRS to change driver's licenses and some do not require it to change birth certificates. For more information on your region, check out the interactive map from the Transgender Legal Services network as posted on the National Center for Transgender Equality's website.


Actually its already been established at least in the west. the prison system does well here...pre-ops go to their biological sex prison and hormone therapy removed. post-op goes to their new gender

I'm not quite sure where "here" is for you but you may want to check your facts? After two recent transgender deaths in the UK prison system and public outrage against Tara Hudson's incarceration in a men's prison, the whole treatment of trans prisoners in the UK is under revision. Many US locales take each case on an individual basis and allow a prisoner to maintain whatever state of transition they are in at the time of incarceration or more. Take Chelsea Manning for example. She's in a totally messed up situation but still provided hormones. There's also the recent case of Ashley Diamond that just won a $250,000 settlement against the state of Georgia for not providing adequate medical for transgender inmates. Okay, it's BuzzFeed, the ass cancer of the Internet as recently pointed out but the story is here if you are interested.

I was going a bit general and admittedly a bit ignorant of the legalities here, I ran with some general understandings based on what I have heard before..that being transvestites go to normie prison, post op goes to new gender prison
hell, orange is the new black shows a post op transsexual in the womans prison, so figured ok..that seems reasonable.

I am not sure what can be done about this here..I suppose every state have a very small satellite prison for trans folks if it becomes a serious issue, but surely there is a overall qualifier (aka, is penis present) for these things.



posted on Feb, 22 2016 @ 02:54 AM
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a reply to: Sargeras




Take over the schools, take over the media, institute language thus thought controls, destroy the western family structure.....


WTF does this have anything to do with the topic at hand, let alone your assertion that black families predominately lack fathers.. Which you have yet to provide a source for this claim beyond your opinion.

Even if this were the case, behavioral biology tends to disagree with your opinion on the "family structure". We are a combination of pair-bonding and tournament species, we(humans) have never strictly been monogamous nor completely heterosexual.



posted on Feb, 22 2016 @ 07:18 AM
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originally posted by: IvyNeptune
For a man to become a women, or a women become a man, its a lengthy process. I do not believe that they just wake up one day and decide they want to be the opposite. I have to believe them when they say they feel it for a long time.

Thank you Ivy, for your comments and thoughts. You have things mostly right but then say a few things I would like to address. I'm not being nit-picky or criticizing in any way and am actually happy you brought up some of the things you did so we can talk about them.

Here's a few things that most people don't know or don't understand because they're hard to understand. There is no one way or right way to be trans and it would be a mistake to assume or think that one person's "process" is going to be the same as someone else's or that the ultimate destination or goal of every transgender person is SRS. Not all transgender people even transition socially or require medical treatment and of those that do live full-time under medical care as the gender other than the one assigned at birth, roughly only one-third have genital correction surgery (based on published research gathered from US Census and Social Security data). Keep in mind also that SRS is very expensive, rarely covered under insurance and financially impossible for some to achieve. It is also major surgery that other health factors could rule out, hella painful and requires a dedicated commitment to post operative care.


Maybe its a birth defect. Maybe not. Some people say its a mental illness and they should be treated, but I dont know about that one.

Calling trans people a defect is likely to draw the PC Police but I know what you mean. Many or most trans people feel this is something they were born with or felt from a very young age but either repressed their feelings, didn't understand them or were unable or unwilling to accept them. It's a pretty tough realization to face and some do whatever they can to deny or hide by overcompensating so you'll hear many stories of people taking on manly jobs, being soldiers or (ahem) Olympic athletes and getting married and starting families to convince themselves and the world they don't have problems and nothing is wrong.

This inner torment can become a hellish nightmare and leaves little doubt why the rate of attempted suicide is 41% and higher for these groups. Trans feelings don't go away. They can be lived with by some and others have no choice but to transition. For some, changing their social identities brings relief and for others, HRT and maybe breast augmentation or facial feminization surgery (FFS) is sufficient. For the strongly dysphoric transsexual individual, anything less than SRS is inadequate particularly for those going in the male to female direction as that procedure is more satisfactory than for those going the other way.

Is it a mental illness? No, not according to the American Psychiatric Association and other health organizations around the world but Gender Dysphoria is classified as a psychological condition, not a pathology. In the hundred years or so this has been studied and researched, those diagnosed with severe Gender Dysphoria or Gender Identity Disorder as it used to be called, medical treatment is indeed indicated and in those cases absolutely necessary. In our modern age of medicine, more or less by trial and error, every imaginable treatment or therapy has been tried including massive doses of hormones and other drugs, psychoanalysis, aversion or reparative conversion therapy, exorcism or trying to pray it away and electro-convulsive shock treatments have all proven unsuccessful in making this go away or improving patients lives. For the properly diagnosed and evaluated, the only successful path been proven to work is transition, hormones and surgery.


And as far as I know you have to under go all of those before you can legally change your sex and are legally seen as the opposite sex to that you were born.

This is true for some things but most states have different requirements for changing legal documentation and birth certificates. In most states, driver's licenses can be changed with medical proof of a diagnosis and treatment for Gender Dysphoria without SRS. Some require legal name change and some do require proof of SRS. Some states will change or amend birth certificates only on proof of SRS and others don't require it. Two won't change birth certificates for any reason whatsoever so it is all kind of up in the air and arbitrary which illustrates the needs of trans people to have consistent and uniform rights and protections from state to state. That is still in the process of sorting out.


I feel personally that I am ok with someone who is transgender using the same bathroom as me. I know not all females feel the same as me. So im not sure exactly how we go about it.

This bathroom panic is unfounded. Trans people are at far greater risk of being assaulted or threatened for using the bathroom than you or I am and I've never seen anyone's genitals while using a public bathroom. The notion that men will dress up and pretend to be transgender is a myth. This has not been reported to happen in the 17 states and 200 cities with laws allowing transgender people to use the bathroom that aligns with their gender identity. Locker rooms and showers where nudity may happen is a slightly different situation but generally speaking, transgender women are pretty ashamed and embarrassed by having boy parts and not likely to go parading them around. From what I understand though, the notion of "female penis" being okay in protected women's spaces where nudity may be involved causes a rift between the transgender people and the subgroup of transsexual women that have had surgery. I can't say that sits too well with me either in spite of being open minded. Even I draw the line somewhere but do make concessions depending if we're talking about trans children and adolescents or adults. Trans youth are not the same and have different situations and needs from trans adults which I won't go into here for brevity.



As for what they should be called, I know they have come up with their own system (which I find highly confusing) where you essentially say your gender and if you were born that way or not.


Trans people in general want to be referred to with the pronouns that match their presentation or you know, their name and most often, those that have undergone medical procedures fall at either end of the traditional binary and identify as men/women, he/him/his or she/her/hers but as gender is a spectrum, some may be androgynous or in between transition phases or simply don't identify themselves as men or women. When in doubt, use they/them or if it really matters, discreetly ask the person what they prefer.


Im not sure if you have all seen people using the word CIS or Cisgender.


Trans and cis are terms used in science and chemistry. Cis is used simply to indicate not trans or means on the same side of and is not derogatory or demeaning in any way. Saying someone is cisgender has less of a negative connotation to transgender people than saying someone has a "normal" gender. Again, language grows and evolves.

Finally, I just Googled "New Zealand transgender" and see there is a fair bit of information available.



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