Do we have the right to suicide?

originally posted by: onequestion
a reply to: Forensick

Does the question of Morality come down to perspective and if that's the case then how do we decide?

I believe morality to be a question of well being. Sometimes it is less moral to prohibit a person's choice to end their life. If they are in serious, unfixable pain, it would not be moral to force them to live with it against their will.

On the flip side, It would not be prudent to allow/assist suicide for most people though. Humans have a roller coaster of emotions. I would not agree with a decision to end one's life without some serious counseling and probably a diagnosis of a terminal/debilitating illness.

a reply to: onequestion

Basically..yes. But its the old Dr. Jack Kervorkian helping people to pass when they choose. The terminology should also be changed. "Suicide" while referring to killing oneself, should moreso be described as "ending one's life by choice"

Should one have the right to decide to end living, no matter the reasoning? I think so. But, I am also concerned there are mentally-disabled-distracted-deficient folks who may not be thinking in their best long term interests.

So how do we control or allow the issue? Terminally ill, infirm or aged-then its seems ok. Upset over a breakup or job loss etc? Then no...

Allowing one to commit "end-of-life" validity, and controlling one's temporary "I don't wanna live without my boyfriend" or "I'll never get another job" so I'm comitting suicide....well. I've always thought "end-of-life" rights and "suicide" are 2 vastly different things.

a reply to: onequestion

Do we have the right to suicide?

Yes. Absolutely. Everyone has the right to death, just as much as they have the right to life. It's not government, or anyone elses place to adjudicate such matters. Especially the self righteous, self appointed, moral "authorities" on the planet. The decision is up to the individual alone. I'm not saying extenuating circumstances don't apply. There will always be those cases when it comes to humans.

a reply to: themagpie

reverbpress.com...

Never would happen.

If people didn't like their life and didn't feel like working for slave labor how would those in charge maintain their slave pool.

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ATS doesn't allow personal talk of intent, plans, threats or methods of suicide. Members doing so risk immediate account termination. If the thread drifts towards personal experience it will be closed for review.

The discussion is about the the right to commit suicide as a legal concept.

This is a legal requirement that is supported amongst the majority of media outlets in the western world.

Thank you for understanding.

Do not reply to this PSA.

Euthanasia for those who are terminally ill and suffering may be a choice to begin with if it is legalized. Once the insurance companies, medical industry and banks get their hands on it, it will become a way of skirting property issues and other legal issues for the sake of profit and efficiency.

I believe the Nazi's perfected the method, and because of what happened in WW2, the subject is a very touchy one. Initially they may come to the conclusion that someone in pain and suffering, with no hope of recovery or improvement in quality of life could be allowed to decide whether they would rather live or die....But it isn't much of a stretch to imagine some people would believe others be better off dead for reasons of efficiency.

I believe it is one of those things that people are just too irresponsible to address.

And besides, everybody dies anyway as far as I know.

a reply to: onequestion

I would say only humans have the rational or rather irrational urge to end it all which most of us have considered when thing's got really bad but the truth is that NO we do not have the right.

It is a cop out and death is really not the end either as I really do believe in the soul.

Suicide is almost always because of illness that affect's the mind of the VICTIM, that illness can be physical or psychological and is often related to our environment, money woes or being victims of some other tragedy be it at the hand's of other people or because of our own mistake's but it is NEVER the answer and simply getting away to a new environment which can be far more terrifying to the mind of the suicidal person whom in there irrational state would rather just die is probably a far better answer.

If suicide was a normal human trait non of us would be here because with the adversity of human ancestors' they would simply have commited suicide long ago but it is not a normal trait it is a psychological illness manifest as an attempt to escape.


So NO is my answer but I myself have felt that way more time's than I can count and know it is because of other malady's.

Warning sign's in some cases are a withdrawel from society with increasing reclusive or introverted behaviour, depression and simply not cleaning your home but in other cases it has no outward symptoms and a person can simply go about even seeming happy but then inexplicably they kill themselve's often because of a pre thought out response to something ahead of them they think they can not overcome.

originally posted by: LABTECH767
a reply to: onequestion

I would say only humans have the rational or rather irrational urge to end it all which most of us have considered when thing's got really bad but the truth is that NO we do not have the right.

It is a cop out and death is really not the end either as I really do believe in the soul.

Suicide is almost always because of illness that affect's the mind of the VICTIM, that illness can be physical or psychological and is often related to our environment, money woes or being victims of some other tragedy be it at the hand's of other people or because of our own mistake's but it is NEVER the answer and simply getting away to a new environment which can be far more terrifying to the mind of the suicidal person whom in there irrational state would rather just die is probably a far better answer.

If suicide was a normal human trait non of us would be here because with the adversity of human ancestors' they would simply have commited suicide long ago but it is not a normal trait it is a psychological illness manifest as an attempt to escape.


So NO is my answer but I myself have felt that way more time's than I can count and know it is because of other malady's.

Warning sign's in some cases are a withdrawel from society with increasing reclusive or introverted behaviour, depression and simply not cleaning your home but in other cases it has no outward symptoms and a person can simply go about even seeming happy but then inexplicably they kill themselve's often because of a pre thought out response to something ahead of them they think they can not overcome.

I don't think anyone is advocating to allow young healthy people, who are simply sad/depressed, the assistance of trained suicide doctors. This is usually put in terms of mercy for terminally ill patients with a prognosis of less than six months to live and a small chance of recovery.

My father had melanoma of the lymph system. It took two slow long painful years of conventional and experimental cancer treatments until he had finally wasted away to around 100lbs. He made the decision to (very legally) have a hospice worker give him a lethal dose of morphine. My mother took it upon herself to do the deed. Our entire family backed him up on his decision, and i wouldn't want to refuse anyone in his condition, the ability to have this option available.

a reply to: onequestion

I definitely agree!! Thanks for the reply

a reply to: interupt42

Very good point. When the cogs start breaking the machine doesnt work anymore.

My personal thoughts on the subject because nobody cares:

Assisted suicide should be allowed under certain circumstances
1) at least 2 witnesses have signed off on the desire, or a clear note and 2 medical practicioners signing off saying criteria is met for a assisted death (aka, is person vegetable without hope of waking up)

2) it is video taped by a witness and turned over to the police to ensure it was 100% willing (no rolling up to a scene and seeing a dead person and someone who just inherited a ton of cash saying the person totally just suicided out, no investigation needed

3) it should be done in a way respectful, quick, and permanent..and with perhaps a 2 day waiting period minimum, would also add in a mandatory visit with a therapist to discuss other options...girlfriend dump you and you wanna end it? ..how about spending 2 days chatting with some singles kinda thing.

But end of the day, you own your own body..I do think there should be options open for terminally ill. I look forward to the day when the action to take in those situations isn't suicide but rather stasis/cryogenic freeze to wait until a cure/treatment comes...but for now.
-shrugs-

You have the right, you have free will. But if you are healthy, maybe young you need to realize that suicide is not a victimless crime, it can be a selfish act that can hurt others.

Whether suicide is a one way ticket to hell or not, is not for us to decide. If someone assists in a suicide or facilities it are they a murderer? Again, not for us to decide.

This is a very thorny topic. I too have spiritual apprehension about whether it should be legal for assisted suicide. That being said, I think when a person can no longer do for themselves and is locked in a broken and suffering body is like cruel and unusual punishment we think about when punishing criminals. It is also difficult to know what a person is thinking or capable of mentally in some circumstances. That makes it difficult for a doctor or legal authority to determine if that should be applied or allowed. There was a story and I believe threads about a woman in Oregon with a severe form of brain cancer who chose to end her life and family also supported the decision because of her suffering. She had no hope of getting better either. Had she not had the ability to do so with legal authority and medical support in her decision to what ends she or her family would go can not be determined, but we can think hypothetically about such issues.

There have been a large amount of failed attempts by people that have done so without such assistance or legality. Many, if not the majority end up much worse off and a bigger burden to those that love and care for them then had they (ones legitimately suffering terribly) had legal assisted suicide available. To those against it, would it matter if the family supported the persons decision? I do believe the person must be able to decide and be able to show that somehow over time. Not any sudden decision. I believe the Oregon lay gives some time frame like 6 month to a year.

For the people is serious traumatic accidents I want to point out something important in my case. And first of all for T&C and concerns it was a result of being shot. I have never attempted to terminate my life. When I was on life support for two weeks, the doctors did a brain scan. They told my family there was very little activity and that they didn't think I would come out of it, nor did they think if I did I would be able to function feeding myself etc. They were so totally wrong it couldn't be further from the truth. I was tied down with leather straps of some sort and had 3 glass IV's sewn into my femoral artery which is why I was strapped down apparently because I was involuntarily moving and if one of those glass IV's broke or tore my femoral artery it would be the end from what I was told. Anyway, I had a lot going on in my head when I was supposedly almost brain dead. I though I was being tortured for information due to past training and experience I guess my mind was off on some tangent. Anyway, I woke up and was instantly fully capable of moving, fighting, and thoughts to everyone's surprise. I had a nurse sitting next to me writing in charts keeping tabs on me. I was in Surgical ICU. I had somehow got my right arm lose, or they had done so for some reason prior to me waking up. I asked this lady (I was not in the state of mind at the moment to realize I was in the hospital although a minute of observation in the right mind would have revealed it) and she said, "They will talk to you about everything". Well, in my state of mind I did not want "they" coming back to torture me anymore and started undoing my left wrist when she grabbed my right arm trying to strap me back down. I am a big boy, strong, and well trained. I was escaping and she was trying to prevent such. I hit her and she went into the corner and was down. It made a large crashing sound with the chair and steel table and other things around. I was undoing these straps when in runs my father, the police, and several doctors and nurses. Of course I was shocked, and overjoyed my torturers were not going to get me at the same time. They asked if I knew where I was at and I replied no. They told me I was in the hospital, had been shot and had 2 trauma surgeries.

I was blown away by the revelations. I suppose the drugs they had pumped in me were having their side effects on my mind. But, the point is by what they were telling family and my family was trying to decide what to do as I learned later was if I survived what they were going to do with me (they thought I would be useless to even feed myself) and if life support should be discontinued. That is one reason I don't trust the medical community sometime despite their best intentions and knowledge. It is a reason I said before that people be given an adequate amount of time before decisions are made.

Apparently, even with their best knowledge they can't determine what is really going on. At least that is my experience personally. I saw a case on TV on some documentary of a guy that awoke from a coma 19 years later. He thought one day had past and refused to accept what everyone was telling him. Had he not remained able to live with the feeding tube and personal care of course he wouldn't have lasted. I couldn't imagine it. His girlfriend had moved on married and had almost adult children, family members had passed on, etc. Would it have been the case that if he were in a state that allowed assisted suicide that the family would have done it at some point?

There is a big dilemma and it is probably why so many in the legal and medical profession don't support it. They are much more aware of these cases than the public at large. No one likes to see a family member suffering and going through a hell on earth. That is where emotions run rampant and this can;t be an emotional choice. It has to be a logical one. A living will with your intentions about care in a situation like this could help guide decisions like DNR's (orders than mean Do Not Resuscitate). Even as evidenced in this thread humans are known for compassionate thinking toward strangers and it is much stronger with loved ones.

Forced death or legal suicide will be a very polarized debate for reasons of spirituality, compassion for loved ones suffering, and the realities of cases like I mentioned above. I can understand them all. My experiences with death and pain may have jaded my views, but to me it has sharpened them. I suppose we can debate this for a very long time, but until the scientific community can better understand consciousness for certain cases, spirituality for others, then I don't think we will see it come together in a society understanding and magin better informed decisions about end of life, or end of suffering choices. As far as spirituality goes, it is my understanding and belief that murder (thou shall not kill) means laying in wait to kill someone. Not self defense issues, etc. Apparently, and I am not positive where I read or heard this and could be wrong, suicide was not a sin. However, the religious authorities made it one because there were a lot of suicides by people who wanted to go to heaven. If there wasn't some barrier to doing so, I could see people making that choice especially back in those times life was much more of a struggle and any physical problems magnified.

I will say I fully support legally assisted suicide (really protection for doctors willing to help end severe suffering) under certain circumstances and conditions. However, my idea of suffering is probably very different from other views of suffering. Struggling with life and love is one thing, physical suffering is another if severe enough. The slippery slope comes in making it legal though with what may develop with the 'state' of government deciding to apply these laws to end people;s lives based on economic issues disguised as suffering issues.

Perhaps there is no way to definitively kill oneself, some won't try, perhaps those that do are the ones that actually end up coming back again - to very, very, miserable lives.

The rest - I guess they would die naturally.

Unless of course we never truly die - if that were the case there would be no violence in the world that we live in.

Perhaps some never die and the others do - to my understanding it would put two parties on different "planes" and a constant struggle of those who are on the side that dies to attempt to join with the side that does not - a problem obviously as the mechanics of such a plane would make it impossible for either party to interact.