At least 6 killed in random serial shooting in Kalamazoo County, Michigan

originally posted by: HolgerTheDane2
a reply to: 5StarOracle

Yes.
These are the guys I fear:

You only see the minority.
As of last year, there were 12.8 million concealed permit holders and
over a half of them (law abiding Americans) who carry almost everywhere
and everyday. They are your average working family people. Not to
mention there are countless instances where a gun owner prevent crime
and save lives. Sad thing is today's media keeps this in the shadow.

You will be surprised how many crimes and lives were save by gun owners. Read up defensivepopulace.net...

originally posted by: TrueBrit
a reply to: Curious69

What I know, is that people who are going to kill people, still kill people. What I know is that those who want to carry a blade or a gun illegally, are still doing so, and still carrying out crimes using them.

Not too long back, a man ambushed two female police officers with a hand gun and a grenade, shooting them, and then fragging them for good measure. He lured them there with a false call to the emergency services.

Home invasions are still occurring, involving armed gangs breaking in at gun point, pistol whipping the head of the household, and threatening to shoot his or her family if cooperation is not given.

If you believe these things are not happening in significant enough numbers, to warrant people arming themselves against those issues, then frankly, you are not paying attention. That's fine, but only if you admit it afterward.

Yeah # happens and bad people exists, did the 2 female officers carry guns? and if so did that prevent it from happening?
Home invasions is i admit a growing problem even in my relatively gunfree country thanks to EU and the policy of open borders, and it does make more people entertain the ideea of getting a weapon for defence, but that solution would only result in a arms race simular to the one they experience in the states, and if they only use their guns to whip they might aswell just have brought a stick, but if they assume that they will be met with a gun they will shoot rather than whip-
and a mere thread to shoot your family are preferred to them actually doing it.
i usually like your postings and respect your wievpoints but this one leaves me scratching my head?

originally posted by: Yurimaster

originally posted by: HolgerTheDane2
a reply to: 5StarOracle

Yes.
These are the guys I fear:

You only see the minority.
As of last year, there were 12.8 million concealed permit holders and
over a half of them (law abiding Americans) who carry almost everywhere
and everyday. They are your average working family people. Not to
mention there are countless instances where a gun owner prevent crime
and save lives. Sad thing is today's media keeps this in the shadow.

You will be surprised how many crimes and lives were save by gun owners. Read up defensivepopulace.net...

Looks like a site sponsored by nra. atleast their title "The Defensive Populace
Defending Yourself & Your Constitutional Rights" suggests a pretty onesided agenda driven site. should we expect them to promote a different wievpoint if the numbers they present were the opposite?

a reply to: Curious69

No, the two female officers had no ability to defend themselves, because they had no firearms with which to do so, and this left them at a disadvantage, when confronted by a man not only prepared to shoot them, but to detonate a military grade explosive device, such was his desire to kill them.

As for the home invasion situation, I am not talking about criminal gangs from outside my country, making a new home and a new patch, I am talking about criminals from round here, committing crime because they know that most people have no defence against it what so ever, that if a neighbour were to hear gunfire or screaming, they would have no choice but to call the police, and wait the half an hour or more it can take a armed response unit to get to the scene. It's a bloody travesty, and it is only getting worse, with policing numbers being cut in real terms, as well as the closure of several local stations.

I am not here to win friends and influence people. I am here in this thread to point out that disarming your populous does not make them significantly more safe. It makes victims of the innocent, and kings of the criminals, because they act as if they had the right to carry whatever they want, meanwhile someone who would never consider robbing or killing a man in cold blood, must walk around as if naked before it all.

In effect, a criminal may walk around with whatever he can get away with carrying unnoticed. This makes second class citizens of good people, because you can legislate all you like, but that does not mean that those who are opposed to law and justice are going to follow those laws. All it means is that those who follow them to the letter, trusting that the lawmakers know their craft, or worse, because they know the consequences of breaking the law, are disadvantaged, and unable to effectively look to their own defence, or that of their fellow citizens, from those who might seek to deprive them of their property, Liberty, or life.

originally posted by: TrueBrit
a reply to: Curious69

No, the two female officers had no ability to defend themselves, because they had no firearms with which to do so, and this left them at a disadvantage, when confronted by a man not only prepared to shoot them, but to detonate a military grade explosive device, such was his desire to kill them.

As for the home invasion situation, I am not talking about criminal gangs from outside my country, making a new home and a new patch, I am talking about criminals from round here, committing crime because they know that most people have no defence against it what so ever, that if a neighbour were to hear gunfire or screaming, they would have no choice but to call the police, and wait the half an hour or more it can take a armed response unit to get to the scene. It's a bloody travesty, and it is only getting worse, with policing numbers being cut in real terms, as well as the closure of several local stations.

I am not here to win friends and influence people. I am here in this thread to point out that disarming your populous does not make them significantly more safe. It makes victims of the innocent, and kings of the criminals, because they act as if they had the right to carry whatever they want, meanwhile someone who would never consider robbing or killing a man in cold blood, must walk around as if naked before it all.

In effect, a criminal may walk around with whatever he can get away with carrying unnoticed. This makes second class citizens of good people, because you can legislate all you like, but that does not mean that those who are opposed to law and justice are going to follow those laws. All it means is that those who follow them to the letter, trusting that the lawmakers know their craft, or worse, because they know the consequences of breaking the law, are disadvantaged, and unable to effectively look to their own defence, or that of their fellow citizens, from those who might seek to deprive them of their property, Liberty, or life.

i am absolutely not here to make friends either, far from it.
Home invations is a relatively new thing where i live and is usually comitted by people from the eastern part of europe,
i cant actually remember any natives being caught in that kind of act and for incidents that involves weapons the wast
majority are connected to arabian gangs fighting over pretty much anything they can think of, they usually only shoot each other so its a minor concern to those not involved.
We let them shoot and just hope that they get better at it so they eventually goes down in numbers that way.
we had one terrorist shoot 3 people last year, hardly worth getting armed for, you stand a much greater chance of winning the lottery.
we had a episode where a elderly man was robbed in his home so he got himself a shotgun for protection, a young guy who was heading for a sleepover at a friends house after getting drunk in town, mistook the house of the elderly man for his friends home, and as he was trying to open the locked door he got shot by the old man, unnessasairy but a product of fear and getting a firearm for protection.
about the guy using a grenade to kill with, just how representative is that case for your argument? is it a common weapon and should we all be allowed to carry grenades as a countermeasure? whats excatly the purpose of that example.
When did you hear about the first home invasion? i know your history of must go back atleast to the time of clockwork orange, but was it a common occurance before that?
looking at statistics on the net i find that the UK is pretty low on the list of gun related crimes wich leaves me wondering why you are so pro guns, but maybe you are just rare and a bit cynical.

a reply to: Curious69

I am pro-right to effective defence, and I know that I cannot trust my government to protect me worth a crap, because you could call them before the crime has even been committed, and they would still turn up after the perpetrator had left.

For the record, I prefer blades to bullets, and would rather have a blade for my self defence than a bullet. They are quieter, carry far less risk from the collateral damage point of view, and they do not run out of ammunition. I am pro-right to bear arms, not pro-gun. There is a difference.

a reply to: TrueBrit

Fair enough if thats your stance, i dont see a possibility or need to remove blades from people, atleast as long as they are kept in your home. in public its another matter in my opinion, and by public i mean pubs dancehals malls and such unless uou are some kind of ninja i dont see the advantage of trying to defend with one, unless its a kind of thats not a knife this is a knife scenario. the best defence when standing infront of a blade is turn and run, not pulling a blade yourself, results may vary. its hard to run from a bullet though.
i dont kow why you need a blade to be quiet, in my world that would only be relevant to a perpetrator.

a reply to: Curious69

Curious69,

While it may not occur to you that a knife would be much use, it is infact possible to deal with a great many things using a blade, without having mythic powers of reflex and bodily strength. And while it may not occur to you that a quiet defence of the self is something that might benefit one, that does not mean that there are no circumstances in which such a thing would be useful to an innocent person.

These are concerns you would not have, if you lived in, or near a high crime area. Things have changed an awful lot around here, but one thing that has never changed, not one bit, is thug culture and group think. There are tower blocks in town which have been, and are being run by gangs. Those gangs have people out and about, around the perimeter of their turf, keeping an eye out for both opportunities to make money for the gang, and to deter anyone who looks handy, from getting between that gang, and any business they might be about.

If one were to be set upon by one of theirs, it would be necessary to deal with it, and retreat to some where one could hole up, make a report to the police, and await their discovery of the body. One would not want to call any attention to the situation what so ever in a risky neighbourhood, because you never know whether the person that hears a shot is going to call the police, or a friend of a friend. Hence, knife. Preferably to the throat, rapidly followed by at least one lung, to stop any scream from alerting other hostile elements to the incident.

a reply to: TrueBrit

Yeah ok i recognize and can understand the scenario you presented as a reason to keep it quiet, and i can applaud your methods if effective, but its hardly a possibility for the average joe, again if possible i would rather take a run and make as much commotion as possible to draw attention, hopefully from non thugs
We have our share of risky neighbourhoods but they really only came to be as such thanks to the influx of huge numbers of
turkish imigrants/guest workers in the 70's before that most violence was in the form of fistfights and any use of weapons was so scarce that it created big headlines when/if it happened.
strange enough we had a big wave of asian boat refugees coming in the same years as the turks and they never posed a problem, the influence of that "arabic" culture has created alot of #holes and followers in the form of native kids growing up with that culture of mascismo and strike first ask later mentality, its proberbly impossible to go back to more civilised times but atleast to generations who experienced "better" times its hard to watch and accept, i guess newer generations
will adapt and find a rougher and more violence ready society natural and be prepared to act accordingly.
its a downwards spiral that i dont wish to see enacted with guns if possible.

Also, for those who might be skeptical about the reports of this incident, I have one friend who witnessed the Seelye site as she was leaving a restaurant across the street and another who has phone proof that he took an Uber ride with the suspect within the last week.

originally posted by: Curious69

originally posted by: Yurimaster

originally posted by: HolgerTheDane2
a reply to: 5StarOracle

Yes.
These are the guys I fear:

You only see the minority.
As of last year, there were 12.8 million concealed permit holders and
over a half of them (law abiding Americans) who carry almost everywhere
and everyday. They are your average working family people. Not to
mention there are countless instances where a gun owner prevent crime
and save lives. Sad thing is today's media keeps this in the shadow.

You will be surprised how many crimes and lives were save by gun owners. Read up defensivepopulace.net...

Looks like a site sponsored by nra. atleast their title "The Defensive Populace
Defending Yourself & Your Constitutional Rights" suggests a pretty onesided agenda driven site. should we expect them to promote a different wievpoint if the numbers they present were the opposite?

Sorry to bring you the bad news that you're wrong. This has nothing to do with this or that sides. To bad if you don't like politically incorrectness. I know the person who owns the blog site. Alss site has nothing to do with the NRA. Not sure why to many people like you keep bring the NRA up, probably the bombardment you all here on the MSM? I bet you haven't even read it. Take the time and do some research on those reference statics, facts first before you throw out your own ideas.

a reply to: Yurimaster

Well i did read it, and i found it to be ok, just the headline threw me off.
The numbers presented are far from impressive enough to present any bias, and it really does not present a strong case for
owning a gun, half of those "rescued" was due to the asailant killing himself, and in comparison to the total number of
gun related crimes the good guy with a gun coming to the rescue number was rather pathetic, so i apologise, the numbers looked realistic but presented a bad argument.

a reply to: Curious69

i am absolutely not here to make friends either, far from it.

You sure had us fooled being so friendly and all.

Ok then cheers to you not making friends at ATS then.

Keep calm & carry on...

originally posted by: Greven

originally posted by: Gothmog
Yawnnn..another morality free individual comes out on gun control so soon after a tragedy..

The first post in this thread on a 'side' on this topic was this one.

Similarly, others have gone and said that we need more concealed carry, etc. I am curious to know how a gun on the victim's side would help in an ambush attack as this appears to be.

Perhaps someone could enlighten us?

a reply to: Greven

Well, I'll try. If someone were to catch me by surprise and put a bullet in my head my loved ones know there is a 9mm on my waist at 4:00 and they all know how to use it. I've told them this jokingly but it's true. I'd hope in the event of my death they'd have the time to pull it and use it, at least they'd have the opportunity. When we visit Detroit I carry more than one because if some crazy thing happens I could toss one to my wife or daughter. Of course I hope nothing ever happens but there is nothing wrong with being prepared.
I'm glad they caught this guy. Killing innocent people is insane and he'll get what he deserves.

On CNN one of his riders said that he got a phone call from someone before the shooting started and that he started driving erratically after the phone call.

originally posted by: Junkheap
On CNN one of his riders said that he got a phone call from someone before the shooting started and that he started driving erratically after the phone call.

"Raymond Shaw? Raymond Prentiss Shaw?"

a reply to: Curious69

I keep hearing about our open borders but every time I come back from abroad I go through controls second only to the US and Israel. Something to do with being an island with fixed points of entry.

If we left the EU tomorrow, our borders would be the same and our crime would be the same. It's not immigrants, it's our own homegrown Herberts.

Out of all the gun users I know, from guys who shot a little back in the eighties to my hunting, fishing and shooting neighbour, not one wants US style gun "freedom" here. Our kids are much safer than they are over there and we'd like it to stay that way.

a reply to: Whodathunkdatcheese

Well do you ask for asylum everytime that you come home from abroad? say the word at a EU border and by law they have to let you in and start a asylum case. if you as a native are checked everytime you come from abroad, its likely because you transit from a non eu country, i work at a airport and know the procedure, any checks coming from a EU country are frown upon by the EU council, but happens in this time of crisis for good reasons.
I agree that we should help refugees of war to safety but the current situation are misused by economical fortune seekers
to blend into the stream, that puts a strain on the welfare system that we have build up in generations, housing hospitals policing everything has to be upscaled only to leave us with a big surplus on those when/if they leave again in the future.
chances/experience tells us most likely wont.
Jobs for these people dont magically appear leaving them on support from the tax payers. the lack of jobs and being on welfare leads many to seek a criminal solution to combat boredom and gain wealth. it takes generations for those very different cultures to blend in and adapt to our way of living, making a them/us scenario very apparent. thats OUR/MY
experience results may vary depending on place of living income and how often you can afford to travel abroad, but its a chrisis not only for the refugees but also for those trying to help.
And your experience may be that chrime is mostly homegrown, but statistics show a VERY different picture, atleast here.
Atleast we can agree that arming the population is a bad solution.

originally posted by: Gothmog

originally posted by: namelesss

originally posted by: elementalgrove
Well it appears that we will sadly be talking about the tragedy that is currently developing in Kalamazoo county in Michigan.

Yawwwwn...
Is this even newsworthy anymore?
More shootings, and the 'answer' is arm everyone else!
So now they are getting armed and this is our daily fodder.
I repeat, it's boring (to me, of course) already...

Yawnnn..another morality free individual comes out on gun control so soon after a tragedy..

Yeah, I hear your insincere crocodile tears!
Crimea River!

Here's your insane morality;

From a religious Perspective (and a dictionary), 'morality' is judging people/stuff as 'good' or 'bad/evil'!

This is exact manifestation of the stolen Fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil (Sin of Pride/judgment) in the Garden!

As a Xtian (or any other religion), we are warned against 'judging' others;
"Judge not lest you be judged!"
Such judgment (good/evil) is the sin of 'pride'!
'Pride' is the only sin (from which all others spring), yet the hypocrites flaunt their practices, joyfully, proudly, in the face of their god!

You are told that;
"If you judge, judge with righteous judgment!"
Yet goes on to say that;
"None are righteous, no not one!"

Except you, of course!
Xtian?

Well, this just got a whole lot more creative. Who's the cow head?

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