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A former senior International Monetary Fund economist says the arguments that leaving the EU would cause permanent damage to the UK are not supported by evidence
originally posted by: bigyin
Well I'm hoping England votes out and Scotland votes in.
That means UK is out of EU, but Scots can claim we want to be in so need another referendum on Independence. Whether or not we go back into EU after independence is up for discussion at the time.
If Scotland votes remain and in doing so tips the balance so the UK is kept in EU I hope that England has a referendum to leave UK and then another referendum for England to leave EU. I imagine brexiters in England will be furious with Scotland and that will give me some pleasure.
Wee Ginger Dug: Davidson’s misread the battlefield as Union implodes JUNE 1ST, 2016 - 12:28 AM PAUL KAVANAGH 9 COMMENTS THE first sign of a descent into madness is when you start to believe your own hype. It’s only a couple of weeks since the Unionist parties yet again lost the Scottish elections, and lost them badly, but to hear them go on you’d think that when Scotland spoke on May 5 what the country said was that politically it had transformed itself into Essex during a royal jubilee monarchagasm. Break out the bunting, and let’s have a red white and blue street party. Back in reality, as opposed to what the Tory papers say, Scotland said that it still wanted a majority of pro-independence MSPs. We still have a parliament which is as disposed to vote for another independence referendum as the previous one was. As far as the UK is concerned, Scotland is determined to keep its options open. However, in their desperation to clutch at any straw going and tell themselves that there had been an end to this whole nightmare which threatens their privilege, what the Tories saw and heard was a minor revival in their fortunes at the expense of the other main Unionist party and have mistaken this for an upswelling of British pride in a nation which remains as dubious about the UK as it did before the election. On Sunday, Ruth Davidson said that when she heard pro-independence MSPs speak about independence she was reminded of those Second World War Japanese soldiers who refused to surrender even though their country had long since been defeated. Yet since the modern peaceful and democratic Scottish war of independence kicked off, where we fight with ballots not bullets and words not swords, there have been four public votes. In those four, the elections of 2011, 2015 and 2016 and the referendum of 2014, the independence campaign has scored three crushing victories and went down to one narrow defeat. We’ve obliterated the heavy cavalry of Unionist MPs, wiped out the Unionist majority in Holyrood not once but twice, and increased public support for independence from under one third of the population to around a half. We’re poised to evict the Unionists from many of their local government strongholds next year. The west of Scotland, where 40 per cent of the country lives, which was the key reason for Labour’s former dominance, is now solidly pro-independence. The Union is on a very shoogly peg. The independence campaign has taken the idea of independence from the margins of Scottish politics and not only brought it firmly into the mainstream, we’ve made it the key issue around which all Scottish politics revolves. With its EU referendum substituting for a Tory leadership contest the Tories are poised to shoot themselves in the foot and give Scotland another reason to hold a second independence referendum in which we’ll start off from a much stronger position and in which the Union will be severely weakened by having its key promises from the last time exposed as lies. Remember all those promises about jobs and ships and the nearest thing possible to home rule, not to mention the promise that our EU membership would only be safe if Scotland stayed in the UK. If the UK votes to leave the EU in June and Scotland votes to remain, there will be no traction in Unionist scares about uncertainty when it’s remaining in the UK that will be the greatest uncertainty of all. There’s going to be a long and protracted exit negotiation and no settled outcome, the Unionist parties are going to have to try and sell that process to a Scottish electorate which had just rejected it in the EU referendum. It’s more than probable that Brussels will make Scotland an offer that we can’t refuse. Scotland could remain an EU member by inheriting the UK’s membership, with all the opt outs on the Euro and Schengen. British businesses which seek unfettered access to the EU markets will move to Scotland. And there’s nothing Ruth’s wee band of flag-wavers can do to prevent it. Meanwhile, her party is tearing itself apart, and while they harp on about the divisions caused by the Scottish referendum, the deepest, the most cutting, and the bloodiest divisions are those opening up within the Conservative party as a result of this needless EU referendum. The two wings of the Tory party compete with one another to tell the most ridiculous, the scariest, the most over-hyped stories. The more hysterical they get, the more they destroy their own credibility. Whatever the outcome of the vote on June 23, the Tories will come out of it weakened and fatally damaged by their self-inflicted wounds. And then Ruth is going to have to defend the actions of that party to the Scottish Parliament. Every week she’s going to be held to account for a lame-duck government that’s more preoccupied with its own leadership battles while it seeks to impose austerity and cuts. David Cameron’s stock has sunk so low in Westminster that some Tory MPs are now openly calling for another General Election. If he fails to win a large majority for remain in the referendum, there’s a toilet U-bend waiting for Cameron’s career, and the polls say it is too close to call. There’s going to be a new campaignto make the case for independence starting over the summer, and without us raising a finger to point out the positive case for a Scotland that’s in charge of its own destiny, the Union is self-destructing. So yeah Ruthie, that’s totally like refusing to accept the defeat of a Japan that’s just been nuked, has had its infrastructure utterly destroyed by a four-year campaign of carpet bombing by the Allies, and which is facing an invasion from the Soviet Union. We can only be relieved that her military career was short lived and is now over, because making an accurate assessment of a battlefield is clearly not her strong point. There are blind brain-damaged mice in laboratory mazes with a better grasp of strategy.
Well I'm hoping England votes out and Scotland votes in.
That means UK is out of EU, but Scots can claim we want to be in so need another referendum on Independence.
Whether or not we go back into EU after independence is up for discussion at the time.
If Scotland votes remain and in doing so tips the balance so the UK is kept in EU I hope that England has a referendum to leave UK and then another referendum for England to leave EU.
I imagine brexiters in England will be furious with Scotland and that will give me some pleasure.
If England votes to remain and so does Scotland then its just the status quo. We all carry on as is.
originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: crazyewok
I do feel sorry for those from the South West who seem to get tarred with the same brush yet who feel just as alienated and disgusted with southerners.
So when the popular and eurosceptic EUReferendum website recently disappeared off Google’s first page of results on the topic – after being the top result for the topic on search engines for more than a decade – eyebrows were raised.
The site was founded in 2004 by author and researcher Richard North, was rated by the Financial Times as the UK’s most influential political blog in 2006, and remains the top result for the topic when searched on Yahoo and Microsoft’s Bing.
But on Google now, it appears as either the 13th or 15th result, on the second page – below three government pages on the topic, four links to the pro-EU Guardian and Independent newspapers, one to the BBC, and just one to the more eurosceptic Telegraph.
Britain would be legally entiled to use existing
trade deals worth billions of pounds according to a new report.
Written by some of the most eminent legal experts in the field, the
*Lawyers for Britain* research discredits claims by Chancellor George
Osborne, that the UK would find it *very difficult* to renegotiate trade
deals with 27 EU members and 50 global trading partners.
The report was hailed as a game changer by the independant *Institute
of Economic Affairs* think tank. Director General Martin Littlewood
said, This nails the lie from the remain camp that if the UK were
to leave Britain would find itself at ground zero or year zero. In
fact we would have in place nearly all the arrangements that we
could possibly want, and we would have plenty of time to
exercise flexability from there.*
Britain is already a signoraty to more than 50 trade deals of varying
degrees of importance between the EU and nations outside of Europe.
They include tariff free South Korea and Switzerland worth 12.3 billion ,
and both are top 10 trading partners for the UK.
Speaking at the G7 summit in Japan Mr Osborne said *If the UK
left the EU there would have to be a two year period to negotiate
our exit with 27 other countries. We would then have to
negotiate new arrangements with them, and at the same time
conclude over 50 trade deals with countries that aren't even in
Europe.that would be extremely difficult to do*
This was echoed by a 'Remain' spokesman who said *The legal
position is clear.We'd have to start from scratch, which would take
years if not decades, meaning ongoing uncertainty for trade,
investment, jobs and livelihoods.'
That was rejected by the reports author Martin Howe QC one of
Britain's leading EU experts who confirmed that far from
having to abandon the deals, *Britain would have existing trade deals
in place from the first day after Brexit
Mr How added There was already a legal precedent for this.
It was applied when Czechoslovkia became the Czech Republic
and Slovakia. That's a much more extreme example than Brexit
Those people who are saying it is not true are buying into their own
mythology without checking LEGAL FACTS.
Every working person in the EU is to be given a personal European
Taxpayer Identification Number (ETIN) under new plans by Brussels.
The move dubbed *yet another signpost to a superstate* followed the
decision by the EU Parliament economic affairs committee to rubber
stamp a plan by Commissioners to create a *common corporate
consolidated tax base*
In the biggest threat to sovereignty yet, the plan also calls for the
EU to take over member states corporate taxation powers wit a common
corporation tax base, banning sovereign states from increasing their
competitiveness by cutting corporation tax below 15%.
UKIP's financial affairs spokesman, Steven Woolfe said * After months
of keeping their super state ambitions under wraps, the mask has finally
slipped. These plans demonstrate the risks of remaining in a club which
has grand plans to supersede nation states and create a United States
of Europe with a fully fledged continental-wide tax system.
originally posted by: 83Liberty
I think Gove has done a good job tonight in the Sky debate.
"Take back control" being his main message.
That £350 million per week came back to haunt him though. When he gave the rationale behind his claim he says that the rebate is not always guaranteed and can be reduced overtime. He is correct in that but he doesn't give any examples how it has been reduced, like that extra £1.8billion extra we had to pay the EU, half paid via a reduced rebate for example. I think that would have gave him more credibility in his claim.