UK Referendum 23 June 2016 - Will it be an EU BREXIT or Not?

As many may know I'm no fan of the EU.

But I'm still open to other points of view.

Don't know if this has been posted before but I came across it on the BBC News website.
It's interesting as I've been completely unaware of any EU investment in the UK.

Travelling anywhere within the EU it's pretty much common place to see the EU sign saying 'funded by the EU' but I can honestly say I've only very, very rarely seen it here.

But apparently

Over the last 15 years, Cornwall has received more than £1bn of EU structural investment.

www.bbc.co.uk...

Between 2000 and 2014, £888m was invested in Cornwall from the European Regional Development Fund (ERDF) and the European Social Fund (ESF). The money has financed infrastructure projects, airports, universities, road widening schemes, superfast broadband and local businesses.

Another £486m has been earmarked between 2014 and 2020.

I'm aware that the BBC may be pushing the governments pro-EU agenda but it is a good read and whilst alone it's certainly not enough for me to change my mind but it certainly is something that's worth bearing in mind.

originally posted by: Freeborn
As many may know I'm no fan of the EU.

But I'm still open to other points of view.

Don't know if this has been posted before but I came across it on the BBC News website.
It's interesting as I've been completely unaware of any EU investment in the UK.

Travelling anywhere within the EU it's pretty much common place to see the EU sign saying 'funded by the EU' but I can honestly say I've only very, very rarely seen it here.

But apparently

Over the last 15 years, Cornwall has received more than £1bn of EU structural investment.

www.bbc.co.uk...

Between 2000 and 2014, £888m was invested in Cornwall from the European Regional Development Fund (ERDF) and the European Social Fund (ESF). The money has financed infrastructure projects, airports, universities, road widening schemes, superfast broadband and local businesses.

Another £486m has been earmarked between 2014 and 2020.

I'm aware that the BBC may be pushing the governments pro-EU agenda but it is a good read and whilst alone it's certainly not enough for me to change my mind but it certainly is something that's worth bearing in mind.

I appreciate that but when you consider that we pay the EU 350m every week which equates to 18,200,000,000 a year, surely the amounts you refer to ares only a small drop in the ocean.

originally posted by: RP2SticksOfDynamite

originally posted by: Freeborn
As many may know I'm no fan of the EU.

But I'm still open to other points of view.

Don't know if this has been posted before but I came across it on the BBC News website.
It's interesting as I've been completely unaware of any EU investment in the UK.

Travelling anywhere within the EU it's pretty much common place to see the EU sign saying 'funded by the EU' but I can honestly say I've only very, very rarely seen it here.

But apparently

Over the last 15 years, Cornwall has received more than £1bn of EU structural investment.

www.bbc.co.uk...

Between 2000 and 2014, £888m was invested in Cornwall from the European Regional Development Fund (ERDF) and the European Social Fund (ESF). The money has financed infrastructure projects, airports, universities, road widening schemes, superfast broadband and local businesses.

Another £486m has been earmarked between 2014 and 2020.

I'm aware that the BBC may be pushing the governments pro-EU agenda but it is a good read and whilst alone it's certainly not enough for me to change my mind but it certainly is something that's worth bearing in mind.

I appreciate that but when you consider that we pay the EU 350m every week which equates to 18,200,000,000 a year, surely the amounts you refer to are only a very small drop in the ocean. We might as well make the investments that are required in our infrastructure and the NHS as we (as opposed to Brussels) deem fit and necessary!

Todays Fearful Projection

Yes we got the same bullcrap in Scotland. Leave UK and the sky will fall in. So many numbskulls fell for it and caved voting for a system that works against them.

More Propoganda

This report talks about the cost in personal terms to UK citizens if they dare to vote to leave EU.

I have a question for you. Does it matter to you if it cost you money to get your country back ? This report says that by 2030 each household will be worse off by £4300 per year. Lets say roughly £2000 per adult. Now I don't agree with the projection but lets say it's true. Would you be willing to pay that cost if it meant having your country back?

I would say it would be worth it because having your country back is worth more than money. If you say no then let me ask what price would you pay ? £200, £20, £2 ?

You see during Scottish Referendum we were warned there would be financial loss if we left UK, but my argument was it didn't matter if there was a cost it would be worth it. So I'd like to know if you think the same in this case.

Actually I don't think there would be a cost at all, I think everyone would be better off.

Pollstation online vote is running at 79% leave after over 24000 votes so far.

www.pollstation.uk...

a reply to: bigyin

Saving myself money isn't really something I'd take as an incentive to stay in the EU.

Besides sovereignty, there is the issue of the quality of life.

Anyway, as one of the proles, I've already been screwed financially. Taxes, low interest rates, ever receding-into-the-distance pensions, who hasn't been?

I've just learnt to economise and enjoy things in life that cost little or no money.

Just been thinking .... From a previous post regarding our place at the EU. table.

We the UK are in a voting minority more often than any other member state.


Attempts to block unwanted EU measures have failed 72 out of 72 attempts


since 1996

Figures like that make us having a *government* obsolete... so how will the MP's

and their entourages/hangers on feel about loosing their gravy train jobs and

expenses, after all do we need a second layer of 'elites' telling us what to and not

to do


Wondering would Cameron, Osborne et al be so keen on staying in if that

were the case

originally posted by: bigyin
Actually I don't think there would be a cost at all, I think everyone would be better off.

Fully agree with that statement .... even if at sometimes we find it necessary to

tighten our belts for economic reasons.


Economies for whatever reasons sometimes take a dive, in the same way as each

and every one of our 'personal' budgets do.


Even the best of business's have their lean times .... what's that saying "fix the roof

while the sun shines" (George Osborne would do well to remember saying that

in his recent statement today of further doom and gloom)


Hey .... THATS LIFE the rough with the smooth?

I am just watching SKY NEWS and the IN campaign (Osbourne and co) speak about the doom for the UK and our economy being 7% smaller a year if we leave the EU. They have gone full on monty scare the hell out of UK voters. What they are stating is just wild speculative numbers pulled out of the air without any evidence to support the figures! On top of this they are using the Treasury office to promote a purely one sided view.

a reply to: RP2SticksOfDynamite

Yes this is Project Fear building up now.

It's just the start though it will get a lot worse.

Scottish Independence Referendum had the same thrown at it.

Even so the outcome was 45% to leave and 55% to stay which I think was really good given the onslaught of fear.

Everything that been said so far was exactly the same said about leaving UK. Twas all a con. Just as this is.

It's why we think there should be a second Scottish referendum so that people will know what Project Fear looks like and basically ignore it.

If the remain camp wins this time I can guarantee those wanting out will scream for a second vote. They won't get it though. Well unless everyone switches to UKIP I guess


Edit to add:

I expect some of you are sick of me going on about Scottish Referendum. But you shouldn't be. There is a lot to learn from what happened during it. Project Fear is well known about up here. This campaign is a mirror image of how the establishment hoodwinked the unenlightened. I hope my posts will help some people to realise what is going on and not to take the slightest notice of any of it.

a reply to: bigyin

There was no such thing as 'Project Fear' in the recent Scottish Independence Referendum - just alternative points of view to yours.

The 'Yes' campaign had the full support, obviously, of the SNP and by extension Holyrood.
That's not insignificant by any stretch.

The 'Yes' campaign was ran professionally and used every trick in the book, exactly the same as the 'No' campaign.

It's why we think there should be a second Scottish referendum so that people will know what Project Fear looks like and basically ignore it.

Bollocks.
You want a second referendum because you can't accept more people disagreed with you than agreed with you.

If 51% had voted for independence and 49% against you wouldn't have give the 'No' campaigners a second thought and dismissed their protestations as typical whinging etc.

If the remain camp wins this time I can guarantee those wanting out will scream for a second vote.

As it stands at present I'm voting OUT.
But if the UK votes to remain in the EU then I will accept that.
I will then advocate and push for the UK taking more of a proactive role within the EU ensuring that the British people's wishes and best interests are at the forefront of this nations European policy.

In addition I will continue my stance and promotion of radical reform to our own electoral and Parliamentary procedures.

I certainly won't be whining and moaning and being consumed with bitterness towards the majority who voted to remain in the EU.

I expect some of you are sick of me going on about Scottish Referendum.

I was going to say that's the understatement of the year.
But it isn't.
I'm not sick of you going on about your referendum.....I'm sick of the whinging, moaning and blaming everyone else, particularly the 'English' etc.

I hope my posts will help some people to realise what is going on and not to take the slightest notice of any of it.

So effectively what you are saying here is that people should just simply ignore anything that goes against their pre-conceived ideas and vote to remain in the EU regardless of any argument that may be forwarded to support the OUT campaign?

originally posted by: RP2SticksOfDynamite
I am just watching SKY NEWS and the IN campaign (Osbourne and co) speak about the doom for the UK and our economy being 7% smaller a year if we leave the EU. They have gone full on monty scare the hell out of UK voters. What they are stating is just wild speculative numbers pulled out of the air without any evidence to support the figures! On top of this they are using the Treasury office to promote a purely one sided view.

What they are stating is what they have been asked to provide - a forecast of what would happen if Britain votes to leave.

I also love the hate that the French and Germans got hammered with over the weekend for answering UK journalists questions: "What would happen if Britain left" - "Britain would get hammered in negotiations".

How is that threatening? (the accusation made). It is simply an honest answer to a simple question. Frankly, the Leave camp is throwing so much tosh out there at the moment that i, for one, am glad the remain camp is injecting a little bit of realism. But apparently people don't like that, it is "scaremongering". Well that is a pathetic response. Instead of accusing the remain camp of scaremongering, how about offering up some evidence of why that may not be the case..........oh, that's right, because they can't.

a reply to: Flavian

What they are stating is what they have been asked to provide - a forecast of what would happen if Britain votes to leave.

Yes, and no.

They are stating what they think MAY happen if we vote to leave.

Gideon and Cameron are in the Stay camp so they aren't going to give a positive spin on things just as the OUT campaigners will never say that there may be a negative impact on the economy.
Surely people on ATS are wise enough to understand that.

Personally I think a temporary downturn in the economy would be an acceptable price to pay for freeing ourselves from the EU - but I understand that many will not see it that way.

I also love the hate that the French and Germans got hammered with over the weekend for answering UK journalists questions: "What would happen if Britain left" - "Britain would get hammered in negotiations".

Of course they would try to 'hammer' us, only an idiot would expect anything else.
It would be up to 'our' politicians to fight for what's best for the UK - again, surely everyone here realises that?

Frankly, the Leave camp is throwing so much tosh out there at the moment that i, for one, am glad the remain camp is injecting a little bit of realism.

Both sides are spreading alarmist nonsense.

To believe the OUT campaign everything in the UK will be rosy, a new Golden Era - bollocks.
There'll be some difficult days ahead and people have got to realise and accept that.

And the fear and dread being spouted by the pro-EU side is quite frankly laughable.
Of course we'll survive if we vote to leave.
And in time we'll grow and prosper - like we always have.

Instead of accusing the remain camp of scaremongering, how about offering up some evidence of why that may not be the case..........oh, that's right, because they can't.

They can - some choose not to report or present it....and some choose simply to ignore it.

Both sides can offer up some valid and important points.
Both sides are also presenting some absolute bollocks and crap - sorting the wheat from the chaff can be a tedious task, but important nonetheless.

a reply to: Freeborn

The fact is, the world is completely different nowadays. If you aren't part of a block, nations can simply ride over you.

The Leave camp keeps touting Canada as an example - well Canada is fully signed up to NAFTA. The areas they are not signed up to (and which the Leave camp use as an example of how we could thrive) are in commodities such as Uranium and Tar Oils - neither of which are subject to Global Tariffs. We do not have those to offer, so it is a completely false analogy. Australia ia also frequently touted as an example - all i will say is that people should read the myriad of articles in both the Economist and also the Financial Times as to why this is not the case. They set the case out clearly (far better than i could) and with no bias - they simply state the facts. Suffice to say, none of the examples touted are comparable to Britain and none of them are anywhere near as sweet now as they seemed at the time. But, like i say, don't take my word for it - those interested should read the articles themselves.

The thing people keep touting is how we would "regain" our sovereignty. That is all very well, but we would be adrift in a world not necessarily against us but certainly one that will not be wishing to do us any favours. For example, future trade deals would be negatively impacted: imagine the EU was renegotiating with Nissan over car plants - if we leave, these deals would not have to pay any interest in how that affects car manufacturing in the UK. Now, as part of the EU, this has to be taken into consideration.

The EU may have many many problems but you don't solve those by throwing your toys out of the pram. You solve them by negotiation. In diplomatic terms alone, if we leave the world (not just the EU) will take a long time to forgive us. And our clout will be almost non existent.

All that said, i don't really know why i keep dipping into this thread (and that is not a pop aimed at the OP). Everyone on here already has their mind made up so it is completely pointless to keep trying to change your minds!

originally posted by: Flavian


How is that threatening? (the accusation made). It is simply an honest answer to a simple question. Frankly, the Leave camp is throwing so much tosh out there at the moment that i, for one, am glad the remain camp is injecting a little bit of realism. But apparently people don't like that, it is "scaremongering". Well that is a pathetic response. Instead of accusing the remain camp of scaremongering, how about offering up some evidence of why that may not be the case..........oh, that's right, because they can't.

Frankly no ones figures or projections (neither *in* nor *out*) count for anything

You may as well consult 'Mystic Meg' or 'Russell Grant' they have as much chance of

getting a prediction right!! And in the end that's all it is?


I don't believe anyone predicted the failure of the *Banks*...After all they were

too big to fail?


Added to which George Osborne's predictions on growth, and deficits over his time

as chancellor have been far from accurate.


The EU have recently penalised

the UK for doing better economically than any other member state by increasing

the sum we already paid in. That's a new one on me Penalties for doing well

a reply to: Flavian

Like the vast majority of people who I know who currently intend to vote OUT I fully understand the benefits of being part of a Free Trade Association - and that is what the British people signed up for.

What we don't want is political union and the transfer of sovereignty to Brussels.

And that is the aim of the EU - full political union and the reduction, possibly elimination, of power for the elected governments of the constituent nations.

I support devolved power to the regions, not increased centralised power to Brussels.

I'd even support a common, shared foreign policy to a certain extent.

But I can not and will not support political union.

Everyone on here already has their mind made up so it is completely pointless to keep trying to change your minds!

And exactly the same accusation could be levelled towards you could it not?

I'm trying my best to have an open mind.
I read alternative points of view - see my post earlier - and try to come to my own point of view using reasoned and cognitive thought.
Yes, at present I'm firmly in the OUT camp but there's still over 2 months till the referendum and who knows how I'll feel come the day......but one thing is certain, the way I vote will be a considered decision based on all the facts that have been presented to me.

originally posted by: Freeborn
Of course they would try to 'hammer' us, only an idiot would expect anything else.
It would be up to 'our' politicians to fight for what's best for the UK - again, surely everyone here realises that?

The ^^^^^ bolded bit is what scares the hell out of me when you look at

the pathetic negotiations David Cameron's is capable of, and the two together

(Cameron and Osborne) have as much charisma and go in them as a limp salad.

And the fear and dread being spouted by the pro-EU side is quite frankly laughable.
Of course we'll survive if we vote to leave.
And in time we'll grow and prosper - like we always have.

To ye of little faith

a reply to: Freeborn

What we don't want is political union and the transfer of sovereignty to Brussels.

It seems to be counter to the trend seen particularly in the US - the dislike of big government and government interference in people's lives.

Even Cameron doesn't want political union but, naïvely, believes he can negotiate to avoid it and to keep the pound.

a reply to: Freeborn

I can't say i fault your thinking. I reach my decisions the same way (have noticed over the years we often come to similar conclusions but usually from completeky different starting points!).

My issue with the Leave camp is that they just won't give answers. The Remain camp may spout rubbish but at least they attempt to answer questions. It is a rubbish rule, but i generally go on the maxim that i will always believe the bull #ter over the one that simply refuses to answer.

Anyhow, back on topic, the FT has broken down the Treasury release today - and actually back up what they are saying. In point of fact, according to the experts, the Treasury release errs on the side of caution.

UK Treasury's analysis of Brexit is reasonable

Now, this certainly shouldn't make people's minds up one way or the other but any rational person will at least take on board what they are saying - in short, the government isn't simply making up these claims.