UK Referendum 23 June 2016 - Will it be an EU BREXIT or Not?

originally posted by: bigyin
Does this mean anything to you

...

Ravenscraig known to be most profitable steel plant in Europe in 1988, shut by Tories in 1992

Absolutely, I remember it well.

Ravenscraig was expendable as far as the Tories were concerned though, production at others including Redcar and Port Talbot ensured continued steel making in the UK.
What this current situation is about is does the UK continue to make it's own steel or not, and if the answer is a wish to continue that primary industry it is related to this thread because the EU prohibits most state help.

I assume you do not wish the fate of Ravenscraig on the town of Port Talbot.

originally posted by: bigyin
The benefits are not English benefits they are UK and are still controlled by Westminster for the whole of UK.
Another case of dilusion

My, my you do carry a hefty chip on your shoulders .........

I don't believe I stated anywhere that they were *English* benefits did I.

They were/are UK benefits which the English, Welsh, Scots and Irish are all

entitled to. As it is the UK its Hardly surprising things are controlled from a

central point?

@grainofsand - perhaps you should make your own thread about the steel industry, if there isn't one already?

I've just watched a great speech by Daniel Hannan. I highly recommend watching.

Britain is too good to be in the EU...

a reply to: bigyin

The Barnett Formula, which has been used since the 80's, shows your statement to be completely false.

The Barnett formula dictates the level of public spending in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland and is based on the population of each nation and which powers are devolved to them.

They each receive greater public expenditure per head than England under the formula.

An extra £1,623 per head, or 19 per cent, is given to Scotland compared to England.

In 2013 Scotland got £10,152 per head, Wales got £9,709 and England got £8,529.

What is the Barnett formula?

originally posted by: 83Liberty
@grainofsand - perhaps you should make your own thread about the steel industry, if there isn't one already?

Ah, I'm not really feeling the love for the necessary thread reply management right now, so instead just dropped it into this discussion as a current real example of EU regulations tying the hands of member governments.
I'm interested in hearing a 'remain' voter explaining how member states being prohibited from supporting it's industries of choice, however it chooses, is a good thing?

I've just watched a great speech by Daniel Hannan. I highly recommend watching.
Britain is too good to be in the EU...

I'll have a look in a bit, cheers.

originally posted by: bigyin


This is what happens to Scottish earnings. They are given to Westminster and they give us back a fraction of what we would have if we kept the lot to ourselves.

SIGH....YAWN.... again

Yea of course we all do English, Scots, Welsh, Irish we are the UK

We're ALL in it together. We are not exactly foreign to each other??

a reply to: eletheia

The honourable member has previously stated here that he/she is against EU membership but is voting 'remain' solely in an attempt to force a second Scottish independence referendum if the rest of the UK votes leave.
I think that is shameful, but what do you expect from a bitter, England hating Scot, who probably hates the 55% of his countryfolk who voted to stay in the UK?

I'd be happy to see the back of those 45% who lost the referendum...auld whingebags.

originally posted by: grainofsand


Ah that wasn't the stance I was taking, I was thinking of subsidised energy through tax breaks on steel plant bills, that, and reduced/zero corporation tax would absolutely help to retain steel production in the UK
All these things are not allowed as long term measures while we are members of the EU though, so yes that directly affects the measures the UK government can take.

I believe completely that the costs of saving the last blast furnaces in the UK is a worthwhile investment, but the government's hands are tied under the strict 'state help' rules. A sovereign UK would be free to help it's businesses in any imaginative way it likes.

Cant pretend to know anything about the steel industry even though I can claim

that my late grandfather did work for Tata till 1947.

I came across the following which I found to be very interesting, seems to me

things are run unfairly in the EU re. the stresses and taxes etc. the constraint

the UK is under regarding the 'green' issue.

The GERMAN and ITALLIAN steel industries are exempt from the green
taxes, and allowed to fuel their power stations with ignite (dirty coal)
three new ones opened in March ....and are government funded, and not subject
to tariffs.
WHY NOT THE UK?
What are they going to kill off next? WW11 still looms large in their memory ....
believe me the sooner we make our own decisions the better.
We need a tough government, and a tough leader who supports the population
without considering what cushy number is lined up for them when they chuck the
towel in like Blair, Kinnock etc.

originally posted by: pikestaff
The UK has sent five trillion pounds to brussels since joining, just how many schools, hospitals, flood defences, doctors, nurses, teachers, para medics and police would that have paid for???
Also railroads, roads, airports, sea defences?

Do you realise that in my 'personal' new way of perceiving that amount is by

looking at it as £1 per second... it would take 164,890 years to accumulate

Frightening isn't it

originally posted by: eletheia
We need a tough government, and a tough leader who supports the population
without considering what cushy number is lined up for them when they chuck the
towel in like Blair, Kinnock etc.

Right now though, a leader that most of the country didn't vote for or want, who is supporting a call to remain in the EU, is potentially political gold for those who wish to leave.
Trust Dave because he says it's the correct choice so, you know...lol.

originally posted by: anxiouswens
For those interested this is link for ongoing vote on EU which will run up until 23 Junewww.pollstation.uk...

Only 3,514 votes so far as just started but so far 61% to Leave which interestingly is similar to voting trend on here. I sure hope this is true. I wonder why the official polls are so different to these results?

In another poll for the think tank the 'Bruges Group' said 58% polled would prefer

the UK to be part of the *European Free Trade Association* (EFTA) that compares

to 42% who prefer to remain in the EU.

That result was shared in Scotland despite the SNP's pro-EU policy. According to

the poll 52% preferred EFTA over EU membership.

The 'Bruges group' said there is an alternative to the EU and that the poll proves

that Britons have not changed their view's on European integration since the UK

voted in 1975, more than 40 years ago. The *European Free Trades Association*

promotes free trade to the benefits of its four non EU member states ... Iceland

Norway Switzerland and Liechtenstein.

Joining it (EFTA) means the UK would keep full access to the EU single market

while being allowed to pursue world wide trade deals of its own.

Under *EFTA* Brussels would no longer have any say in the UK's Fisheries,

Agriculture, Home affairs or Justice policies.

MP Jacob Rees-Mogg said the British public had been *fooled* in 1975, the British

people didn't want political union....that was not a necessary requisite for free

trade.


In a separate poll of small/medium sized business's .....

# 32% said EU rules hindered their business

# 40% said it made no difference, while only

# 25% said it helped them!!

looking promising??

Latest on the new website Pollstation nearly 10,000 votes 77% leave, 18% remain and 5% undecided!

www.pollstation.uk...

Weekly Review of the issues from Vote Leave:

EU membership threatens our national security

Justice Minister Dominic Raab delivered an important speech on Wednesday in which he highlighted how the EU makes us less safe. He stressed that if we stay in the EU, we will be unable to take the steps needed to ensure our security, such as controlling our own borders, deporting dangerous criminals and fully supporting our NATO allies.

His speech followed Vote Leave research which pointed to 50 of the most dangerous EU criminals who came to the UK and committed serious crimes. The EU’s ‘free movement’ rules mean that many criminals can travel from the EU to the UK undetected. This makes the UK less safe and less secure.
www.voteleavetakecontrol.org... ce=voteleave

d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net...


Not only have we lost control of who can and can’t come to Britain, now we can’t even afford to patrol our coastline. 40% of the UK border force fleet of cutters has been moved to the Aegean Sea to deal with the migration crisis leaving just two cutters to patrol the UK coastline. This comes as Vote Leave revealed that the EU will spend more on promoting the EU project than on counter-terrorism. Instead of handing Brussels £350 million a week which it wastes on propaganda and bureaucrats, we should spend our money on our priorities, like national security.
www.voteleavetakecontrol.org... m_source=voteleave


All this backs up the views of Sir Richard Dearlove, former head of MI6, and ex-CIA director General Michael Hayden who both believe that the EU weakens our national security and that the UK will be safer and more secure outside the EU.
www.prospectmagazine.co.uk...

www.bbc.co.uk...


After we Vote Leave, we will be able to take back control of our borders to ensure we can keep out criminals who represent a danger to society. The safer choice is to Vote Leave on 23 June.



UK powerless to save our steel

This week exposed how powerless the UK government is in protecting its industries whilst we are members of the European Union. EU restrictions on our trade policy have cost the British steel industry thousands of jobs, leaving entire communities devastated.

On top of this, EU state aid laws severely limit what the UK Government can do to help the steel industry. It should be elected British politicians, not unelected EU bureaucrats and judges, who should be in control of how we support strategic industries.

Simon Boyd, the regional chairman of Business for Britain, South West told Sky News that the UK cannot protect the steel industry whilst within the EU. John Longworth, Chairman of the Vote Leave Business Council, echoed this, stating that the EU ‘blocks our ability to give our steel industry a fair chance’.

www.youtube.com...

www.voteleavetakecontrol.org... 60401_c_news&utm_medium=email&utm_source=voteleave


Outside the EU, we could take steps that would protect our industries. The only way to do this and to take back control is to Vote Leave.



Leading business figures announce their support for Vote Leave

250 business leaders and entrepreneurs from a range of industries announced their support for Vote Leave. Smaller businesses are the backbone of the UK economy, yet they are too often hindered by burdensome EU regulation.
www.voteleavetakecontrol.org... news&utm_medium=email&utm_source=voteleave


The unveiling of the list of business supporters came as a new poll revealed that twice as many small and medium-sized companies say the EU makes it harder rather than easier for them to employ people.
www.voteleavetakecontrol.org... news&utm_medium=email&utm_source=voteleave


Businesses of all shapes and sizes want the UK to take back control. Employment will increase, wages will rise and our economy will continue to thrive after we Vote Leave on 23 June.



One of Europe’s biggest airlines disputes IN campaign's scare stories

The IN campaign claims that the cost of air travel will rise if we leave the EU. However, the boss of one of Europe’s largest budget airlines has poured cold water on this claim. Norwegian Air chief executive, Bjorn Kjos told ITV that if we Vote Leave, jobs will not be at risk and that prices will not go up.

www.itv.com...


As each day passes the key arguments of the pro-EU camp continue to unravel. Businesses invest in the UK because of our highly skilled workforce, strong legal system and because English is the language of business. These are all qualities the UK will continue to have after we Vote Leave.



Don’t believe the scare stories about the UK leaving the EU. Remember…

As the Chairman of the IN campaign admitted: ‘Nothing is going to happen if we come out ... There will be absolutely no change … It’s not going to be a step change or somebody’s going to turn the lights out.’

www.thetimes.co.uk...

Best reads of the week

Deadly cost of our open borders - Mail
www.dailymail.co.uk... iminals-let-EU-rules.html

Living wage will increase immigration, minister warns - Times
www.thetimes.co.uk... _source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

European judges could water down security powers ahead of vote - Telegraph
www.telegraph.co.uk...

EU are ‘too slack on travel ID checks’, Justice Minister is set to claim - Sun
www.thesun.co.uk... ium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

EU admits plot for FEDERAL superstate and describes Brussels attacks as an 'opportunity' - Express
www.express.co.uk... um=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

a reply to: eletheia

I don't want EFTA for the UK.
EFTA membership means we continue to have no control over free movement of EU criminals and those who do not benefit the UK.

Strange how an engineer or doctor from say India or Australia must jump through hoops to get a visa to the UK but an unskilled European convicted paedophile can just catch a train here with no questions asked.

I just don't understand the lack of belief the Remain side has in the UK.
In my opinion we're one of the greatest and most prosperous nations on Earth.

It's true we're a small island on the cold north west coast of Europe and we shouldn't have any reason to have much influence in the World, yet we do! We're...

- A permanent member of the UN security council
- A leading member of NATO
- The leading member of the Common Wealth
- The fifth biggest economy in the World

We're also the nation of Isaac Newton, William Shakespeare, Ernest Rutherford, Michael Faraday, James Watt and Alexander Flemming to name a few.

The English language is the most dominant language of the intellectual World. In science, engineering, medicine, internet, media, commerce and law.

Why do we need to surrender our democracy in order to stay attached to a declining trade block when every other continent in the World is growing and would very much like to do more business with us. Yet we can't sign our own free trade agreements...

a reply to: 83Liberty

Excellent points, hopefully a pro 'remain' advocate will respond and explain to us why we would be better in the EU than out?

originally posted by: grainofsand


I don't want EFTA for the UK.
EFTA membership means we continue to have no control over free movement of EU criminals and those who do not benefit the UK.

Strange how an engineer or doctor from say India or Australia must jump through hoops to get a visa to the UK but an unskilled European convicted paedophile can just catch a train here with no questions asked.

As I understood the article it was a preference not a must, and for the SNP?

However

Under EFTA Brussels would have no say on *Home Affairs* and *Justice Policies*

surely that still gives us full control as it is only a *trading association*?

a reply to: eletheia

Nope, EFTA membership still involves free movement of people in the EU.
A sovereign UK is the only way to regain control over immigration and end the discriminatory rules which apply to anyone outside of Europe.

As I said, why demand high standards for the visa chasing qualified Australian engineer, when an unqualified Hungarian rapist can catch a train here no questions asked?

I hope a pro 'remain' person can explain that to me.

a reply to: 83Liberty



An excellent post.

You have put into words what I believe, and like you

I don't understand the 'naysayers'

just as well the Brits of the past were not as apathetic

as they are today,or we would never have been*Great Britain*

originally posted by: grainofsand


Nope, EFTA membership still involves free movement of people in the EU.
A sovereign UK is the only way to regain control over immigration and end the discriminatory rules which apply to anyone outside of Europe.

I really think that would require an explanation and verification on a severance

from the EU as Free trading is a misnomer if it applies to people too?

EU = European Union

EFTA = European Free Trading Association?

I hope a pro 'remain' person can explain that to me.

The silence from that quarter has been deafening!!