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Bernie Sanders: ‘Democratic Socialist’ Or Out-And-Out Stalinist?

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posted on Feb, 20 2016 @ 07:32 PM
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a reply to: Semicollegiate



Your standards are to have the gov do whatever to get you what you want.


That is incorrect. The things that I would "want" are easily done outside of the control of the government, and can be achieved by the collective will of the people itself.



Which is by default socialism because it uses a gov with the power to do anything.


This doesn't make much sense. Government, as well as certain other areas has to be strictly limited in it's scope, outside of what the people allow.

Again, it seems you have a generic or "canned" understanding of socialism. Black and White, but it's not black and white at all. You cannot fathom that a "socialist" would believe anything outside of complete and total government control. That is not what I advocate for.

You make many assumptions and those assumptions only feed your own ignorance.
edit on 20-2-2016 by introvert because: (no reason given)




posted on Feb, 20 2016 @ 08:23 PM
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originally posted by: Wardaddy454
I dunno about his youth activities, But the man is a liar.



Start from the 7:58 mark.



Hmm it would seem someone doesn't want this seen too much..



posted on Feb, 20 2016 @ 08:33 PM
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originally posted by: introvert
a reply to: Semicollegiate


That is incorrect. The things that I would "want" are easily done outside of the control of the government, and can be achieved by the collective will of the people itself.


If there were such a real unicorn as the "collective will of the people" there would be no governments in the first place. Despots would disappear.



This doesn't make much sense. Government, as well as certain other areas has to be strictly limited in it's scope, outside of what the people allow.



A government that can rule on the size of beverages, with no beverage shortage, and decide how much of your income to take has no legal limits. It has only practical limits like how much can it take before it kills the Golden Goose.




Again, it seems you have a generic or "canned" understanding of socialism. Black and White, but it's not black and white at all. You cannot fathom that a "socialist" would believe anything outside of complete and total government control. That is not what I advocate for.


It is black and white. Not obviously so, I suppose.

Once the gov intervenes, natural behavior is retarded and production is either reduced or the prices go up. That ruins the goal of the intervention and so there must be another intervention. The second intervention also curtails normal human behavior and thus the second intervention will not achieve its goal, and in total the interventions are twice as damaging as no intervention. The gov must keep intervening until it has control of everything or it must stop intervention all together.

Intervention is black and white.






You make many assumptions and those assumptions only feed your own ignorance.


Projection on your part.

Human have human qualities. They are better at taking care of themselves than they are at taking care of others. They know more about themselves and their own situations than they know about others. They can do things in different ways and so more freedom means more gets done.

Increasing wealth through out society is the only way to help the poor, who at some time will be relatively poor but not absolutely poor. The only way to increase wealth is through increasing production, which takes everyone's fulltime motivation, attention and effort. Keeping the wealth made by one's own efforts is the only way to increase production and needs no government. All gov reduces production, and sells rule by man over man.

edit on 20-2-2016 by Semicollegiate because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 20 2016 @ 08:34 PM
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originally posted by: MystikMushroom
a reply to: Teikiatsu

Uh...

You aren't making any logical sense.


Considering the source of that analysis and the nonsense that was posted afterwards, I'm not too worried by that critique.



posted on Feb, 20 2016 @ 08:38 PM
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originally posted by: tabularosa
Bernie Sanders: ‘Democratic Socialist’ Or Out-And-Out Stalinist? Easy. He is a democratic socialist who wants America to have a government for the People, by the People. Vote for Bernie. He is the only candidate running who is for all of us





posted on Feb, 20 2016 @ 08:55 PM
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originally posted by: yesyesyes
The thing people do not consider is the authoritarian part of Stalin... In this, Stalin was much more like the GOP,


Ah yes... projecting negativity by trying to create similarities.


punitive, pro torture, pro prison, pro big military and huge on "national security".


Stalin and his communists were punitive to those who were not communists. They tortured dissidents. They jailed political opponents. Their military was a state police. The 'national security' was in place to keep people in Russia, not to keep other people out.

Seriously, there is no comparison.

Liberals dehumanize their ideological and political opponents, They seek to make conservative and republicans a faceless enemy that is easy to hate. They cry out 'hate crime' and micr-aggressions to try and silence those who disagree with them.

I have a much easier time seeing liberals veering towards punitive, military police policies. I have no problems seeing liberals call for policies that force people and companies stay in place and lose their freedom of movement.


If people would think critically, they could see that these things, arguably the worst part of Stalinism are aspects that appeal to the GOP.


If people thought critically we wouldn't have nearly as many Democrats in government right now.


Sanders is against punitive usage of government, war and big government security apparatus.


How will he enforce his taxation? You do realize he needs bigger government to achieve his agenda, right?


I just think the American population is demented, sedated and unable to think critically. The best many can do is regurgitate what they see on their TV screens.


Insult the entire American electorate... that's a winning strategy.


This is why most conservatives hold the same, half witted ideas. 90% watch the same TV station and get information from a centralized source, because all other information has been deemed "liberal bias".


Written by someone who obviously doesn't watch Fox news.
edit on 20-2-2016 by Teikiatsu because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 20 2016 @ 09:01 PM
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originally posted by: TerryMcGuire

originally posted by: xuenchen
a reply to: TerryMcGuire

But the problem is many people might think this is true.

How many votes could this cost?

Supporters need to somehow counter this.



No, I think the problem here is you HOPE people might think it is true.


Admittedly, I'm only at the end of the first page, but so far I've seen a whole page of people screaming "LIES!", but not a single post of actual refutation. In other words, I've yet to see anyone, Sanders supporters included, show it to be NOT true.

Maybe someone can tackle that in the next few pages.



posted on Feb, 20 2016 @ 09:32 PM
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a reply to: nenothtu

Hey, there's this thing called "Burden of Proof," y'know...



posted on Feb, 20 2016 @ 09:32 PM
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originally posted by: Teikiatsu

originally posted by: yesyesyes
The thing people do not consider is the authoritarian part of Stalin... In this, Stalin was much more like the GOP,


Ah yes... projecting negativity by trying to create similarities.




Stalin and his communists were punitive to those who were not communists. They tortured dissidents. They jailed political opponents. Their military was a state police. The 'national security' was in place to keep people in Russia, not to keep other people out.


Yes and the point is the GOP panders to a base that is pro torture, pro war, pro police militarism, pro police, pro domestic spying, pro big military and pro industrial military complex. This represents the authoritarian axis of political leanings that the GOP and Stalinists have in common.

Bernie Sanders who may hold economic commonalities with Stalinist ideas, is against all these things that the GOP base and the Stalinists were very much for. These are basic idealistic components that do not applies to Sanders or his bases core issues. If you fail to concede it, chances are you are keen to protect your ego and over being intellectual honest with yourself.


Seriously, there is no comparison.


Seriously, you are not being honest with yourself denial.




Liberals dehumanize their ideological and political opponents, They seek to make conservative and republicans a faceless enemy that is easy to hate. They cry out 'hate crime' and micr-aggressions to try and silence those who disagree with them.


You mean the same isn't true of conservatives? Mitt Romney called half the population TAKERS. Obama has been painted for 8 years as a secret homosexual, muslim, communist, illegal alien who is hiding his true identity and nationality. You have got to be kidding me if you believe political polarization is purely perpetuated by liberals.



I have a much easier time seeing liberals veering towards punitive, military police policies. I have no problems seeing liberals call for policies that force people and companies stay in place and lose their freedom of movement.


That is pretty outlandish considering that the people regularly protesting the war and police militarization are liberals.
Tell me, how many times have you seen conservatives protesting police of military action?

You really are in serious denial.

Conservative America regularly expands the government through the auspices of national security, expands corporate domination over the political process and works to make the richer, richer and increase burden on the middle class so the makers make more.



posted on Feb, 20 2016 @ 09:45 PM
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originally posted by: nenothtu

originally posted by: TerryMcGuire

originally posted by: xuenchen
a reply to: TerryMcGuire

But the problem is many people might think this is true.

How many votes could this cost?

Supporters need to somehow counter this.



No, I think the problem here is you HOPE people might think it is true.


Admittedly, I'm only at the end of the first page, but so far I've seen a whole page of people screaming "LIES!", but not a single post of actual refutation. In other words, I've yet to see anyone, Sanders supporters included, show it to be NOT true.

Maybe someone can tackle that in the next few pages.







Sanders is firmly opposed to the authoritarian policies that Stalin carried out.

American conservatives are far more in line with the authoritarian aspects of Stalinism, pro torture, pro military might, pro mass incarceration, among other things.

More denial



posted on Feb, 20 2016 @ 09:53 PM
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"Yes and the point is the GOP panders to a base that is pro torture, pro war, pro police militarism, pro police, pro domestic spying, pro big military and pro industrial military complex. This represents the authoritarian axis of political leanings that the GOP and Stalinists have in common. "

Pro-torture, no. Pro-interrogation of a known terror leader, sure why not?
Pro-war, no. Pro-Peace through Superior Firepower, yep.
Pro-Police Militarism... hell no. You haven't been paying attention if you believe that.
Pro-Police, yes. Pro-bad cop, no.
Pro-Domestic Spying... no again, and you haven't been paying attention if you believe that. I've seen Dems support it more.
Pro-Military Complex... mixed bag. See 'Peace through Superior Firepower'

Again, you have your wires crossed about Stalinists/Communists and Conservatives.

"Bernie Sanders who may hold economic commonalities with Stalinist ideas, is against all these things that the GOP base and the Stalinists were very much for. These are basic idealistic components that do not applies to Sanders or his bases core issues. If you fail to concede it, chances are you are keen to protect your ego and over being intellectual honest with yourself."

If I fail to concede... meaning that since I don't agree with your false premise I must be a poopy head. Duly noted.

"Seriously, you are not being honest with yourself denial. "

There's the projection again.

"You mean the same isn't true of conservatives? Mitt Romney called half the population TAKERS."

Yeah his numbers were way off. More like 10%, maybe 15%.

"Obama has been painted for 8 years as a secret homosexual, muslim, communist, illegal alien who is hiding his true identity and nationality. You have got to be kidding me if you believe political polarization is purely perpetuated by liberals. "

I don't deny that polarization occurs. But I challenge you to name a leader of the Republican party or Conservatives that has made those allegations, instead of some random anonymous commentators on a blog somewhere.

Personally I think Obama is a closet atheist with dual American/British citizenship... but I'm not a political leader.

"That is pretty outlandish considering that the people regularly protesting the war and police militarization are liberals.
Tell me, how many times have you seen conservatives protesting police of military action? "

Haven't seen too many Tea Party rallies where the police showed up in riot gear, huh? Haven't paid attention to the outcry against the hyper-militarization that led to martial law in Massachusetts after the Boston Marathon bombing, huh? Heck, we were pointing out that the armed response to Ferguson was overblown.

"You really are in serious denial."

Since you are talking to yourself at this point I'll move on.

"Conservative America regularly expands the government through the auspices of national security,"

Example?

"expands corporate domination over the political process and works to make the richer, richer"

You really aren't paying attention to conservatives. If you were you'd see that this is one point where the Tea Party and OWS agreed on. It's where Cruz and Sanders agree too. There is too much money and cronyism in government. The Tea Party started with Bush and TARP, not Obama and his Stimulus.

" and increase burden on the middle class so the makers make more."

Burden on the People, no. Allowing the People to be more productive, heck yes.



posted on Feb, 20 2016 @ 09:54 PM
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originally posted by: yesyesyes
Sanders is firmly opposed to the authoritarian policies that Stalin carried out.

American conservatives are far more in line with the authoritarian aspects of Stalinism, pro torture, pro military might, pro mass incarceration, among other things.

More denial


Trying to repeat a lie often enough that it sounds true?



posted on Feb, 20 2016 @ 10:55 PM
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originally posted by: nenothtu

originally posted by: TerryMcGuire

originally posted by: xuenchen
a reply to: TerryMcGuire

But the problem is many people might think this is true.

How many votes could this cost?

Supporters need to somehow counter this.






No, I think the problem here is you HOPE people might think it is true.


Admittedly, I'm only at the end of the first page, but so far I've seen a whole page of people screaming "LIES!", but not a single post of actual refutation. In other words, I've yet to see anyone, Sanders supporters included, show it to be NOT true.

Maybe someone can tackle that in the next few pages.




I see that no one has refuted it, as you will note neither have I. My point is that it need not be refuted, as I think the case must be made by the original poster, which you will note, he did not do. The claim made was picked up by OP from someone else's site and put up here with no further research on the part of the OP. Nor did I find anyone else who could provide additional information on the claim, and like you I got through the first page and left.



posted on Feb, 21 2016 @ 02:36 PM
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Everyone already knows the Bernie is a Socialist. Thats what they like about him. This will only get him more votes. They will admire his dedication.

The USA has been pseudo-socialist for quite some time, Bernie just wants to go all the way. I think he is trailing the criminal Hillary by around 400 atm so soon probably not worth talking about anyhow. Hillary will be left-led politics as usual and the mafia will continue.



posted on Feb, 21 2016 @ 04:21 PM
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originally posted by: Teikiatsu
"Yes and the point is the GOP panders to a base that is pro torture, pro war, pro police militarism, pro police, pro domestic spying, pro big military and pro industrial military complex. This represents the authoritarian axis of political leanings that the GOP and Stalinists have in common. "

Pro-torture, no. Pro-interrogation of a known terror leader, sure why not?
Pro-war, no. Pro-Peace through Superior Firepower, yep.
Pro-Police Militarism... hell no. You haven't been paying attention if you believe that.
Pro-Police, yes. Pro-bad cop, no.
Pro-Domestic Spying... no again, and you haven't been paying attention if you believe that. I've seen Dems support it more.
Pro-Military Complex... mixed bag. See 'Peace through Superior Firepower'

Again, you have your wires crossed about Stalinists/Communists and Conservatives.

"Bernie Sanders who may hold economic commonalities with Stalinist ideas, is against all these things that the GOP base and the Stalinists were very much for. These are basic idealistic components that do not applies to Sanders or his bases core issues. If you fail to concede it, chances are you are keen to protect your ego and over being intellectual honest with yourself."

If I fail to concede... meaning that since I don't agree with your false premise I must be a poopy head. Duly noted.

"Seriously, you are not being honest with yourself denial. "

There's the projection again.

"You mean the same isn't true of conservatives? Mitt Romney called half the population TAKERS."

Yeah his numbers were way off. More like 10%, maybe 15%.

"Obama has been painted for 8 years as a secret homosexual, muslim, communist, illegal alien who is hiding his true identity and nationality. You have got to be kidding me if you believe political polarization is purely perpetuated by liberals. "

I don't deny that polarization occurs. But I challenge you to name a leader of the Republican party or Conservatives that has made those allegations, instead of some random anonymous commentators on a blog somewhere.

Personally I think Obama is a closet atheist with dual American/British citizenship... but I'm not a political leader.

"That is pretty outlandish considering that the people regularly protesting the war and police militarization are liberals.
Tell me, how many times have you seen conservatives protesting police of military action? "

Haven't seen too many Tea Party rallies where the police showed up in riot gear, huh? Haven't paid attention to the outcry against the hyper-militarization that led to martial law in Massachusetts after the Boston Marathon bombing, huh? Heck, we were pointing out that the armed response to Ferguson was overblown.

"You really are in serious denial."

Since you are talking to yourself at this point I'll move on.

"Conservative America regularly expands the government through the auspices of national security,"

Example?

"expands corporate domination over the political process and works to make the richer, richer"

You really aren't paying attention to conservatives. If you were you'd see that this is one point where the Tea Party and OWS agreed on. It's where Cruz and Sanders agree too. There is too much money and cronyism in government. The Tea Party started with Bush and TARP, not Obama and his Stimulus.

" and increase burden on the middle class so the makers make more."

Burden on the People, no. Allowing the People to be more productive, heck yes.



You are not playing the concept of projection properly in this case so I do think there is much point in debating you.
The points I ascribe to modern American conservatism are attributes that most conservatives would embrace. Yet you are trying to posit that I am assigning my secret desires to conservatives which is about as inaccurate as you could be.

The genesis of this entire domestic spying was predicated by 9/11; and George Bush and Fox News selling the idea that America needed to empower the government to prevent terrorism, via the war on terror. Again, if you were an intellectual honest person, or better informed you would concede that liberal America staunchly opposed the war and a slue of government programs like the Patriot Act, FISA system, GITMO and rendition (torture). The majority of my friends marched in the streets to protest the president and the conservative agenda that brought America perpetual war, destabilization of the Middle East, DHS and TSA and the vast expanse of domestic surveillance systems. (fine examples of conservatives expanding government and increasing deficit spending)

George W Bush garnered his political power and support from conservative America not liberal America.



posted on Feb, 21 2016 @ 04:26 PM
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originally posted by: Teikiatsu

originally posted by: yesyesyes
Sanders is firmly opposed to the authoritarian policies that Stalin carried out.

American conservatives are far more in line with the authoritarian aspects of Stalinism, pro torture, pro military might, pro mass incarceration, among other things.

More denial


Trying to repeat a lie often enough that it sounds true?


It is true. Rendition and torture was defended by Cheney and Fox news a like.

You conceded already that you are pro military might.

The GOP regularly pushes harsher penalties and sentencing in locales across the country. They are also the primary proponents for the privatization of the prison system which will only create an economic impetus to increase incarceration linking it to Wall Street, capital investment and job creation.

Now that that is said, please point out where I'm lying.

edit on 21-2-2016 by yesyesyes because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 21 2016 @ 04:32 PM
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a reply to: yesyesyes

Except for the Democrat Senators that liked the Iraq war ideas....


Senate Democratic votes for the Iraq War

If you remember that day, it was a day of speeches. And at least out among the Littles, the final count wasn’t known until the roll was called. Here are your brave warrior Dems, those who voted Yes, covered in testosterone (or confusion) and glory. I’ve highlighted a few names to note:

YEAs — 77

Bayh (D-IN)
Biden (D-DE)
Breaux (D-LA)
Cantwell (D-WA)
Carnahan (D-MO)
Carper (D-DE)
Cleland (D-GA)
Clinton (D-NY)
Daschle (D-SD)
Dodd (D-CT)
Dorgan (D-ND)
Edwards (D-NC)
Feinstein (D-CA)
Harkin (D-IA)
Hollings (D-SC)
Johnson (D-SD)
Kerry (D-MA)
Kohl (D-WI)
Landrieu (D-LA)
Lieberman (D-CT)
Lincoln (D-AR)
Miller (D-GA)
Nelson (D-FL)
Nelson (D-NE)
Reid (D-NV)
Rockefeller (D-WV)
Schumer (D-NY)
Torricelli (D-NJ)

Democrats love WAR





posted on Feb, 21 2016 @ 04:33 PM
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a reply to: yesyesyes

What about harsh penalties for crimes in places like Chicago, Detroit, San Francisco, etc. etc.




posted on Feb, 21 2016 @ 04:36 PM
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a reply to: xuenchen

For what crimes?



posted on Feb, 21 2016 @ 05:04 PM
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a reply to: Teikiatsu


Pro-war, no. Pro-Peace through Superior Firepower, yep.


How very Orwellian of you.....



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