Liberal economists to Bernie Sanders: Your economic plan is unrealistic.

a reply to: peck420

GDP is income. The monetary value of production and services. The main result of an economy.

originally posted by: TheBandit795
GDP is income. The monetary value of production and services. The main result of an economy.

So, no answer to my question?

GDP is to the economy like HP is to engines.

It is a mathematically derived number designed to offer fairly quick comparisons between two extremely complicated and differing economies (external).

It will not tell of the health of the 'engine', nor will it tell the the actual performance of the 'engine'.

Using it to gauge fiscal policy is the same as using HP to determine the winner of LeMans.

a reply to: introvert

I wholehearted agree... It's about corruption not economics.

originally posted by: TheBandit795
a reply to: Willtell

It's a good thing he won't get any of his major plans through congress, because they would be disastrous for the U.S. economy. Especially his tax plan.

Not that this takes only the tax plans into consideration, not government spending. Because if it does they would all probably be negative.

Sources:

taxfoundation.org...

taxfoundation.org...

Your source, the Tax Foundation, was accused of deliberate fraud by Paul Krugman, the same guy the OP cites in his criticism of Sanders' campaign. Regardless they are a group which always advocate lower taxes, and their data always mystically match their objectives.

Back on topic, it's probably true that Friedman's numbers are too high. Sanders hasn't personally cited them to my knowledge, it was his campaign staff, and unsurprisingly, members of his campaign have cited the most favorable study. A bit like Republicans and the chart above.

And yet: Top Economists Are Backing Sen. Bernie Sanders on Establishing a $15 an Hour Minimum Wage

There's 210 economists who signed that letter.

Economists and financial experts in favor of Sen. Sanders' Wall St. Reform

There's 170 signatures on that one.

a reply to: TheBandit795

Forbes wrote an article about the Tax Foundation's findings;

The problem with the Tax Foundation analysis is that it does not account for the fact that all those businesses and individuals will not be paying for health insurance anymore.

originally posted by: peck420

originally posted by: TheBandit795
GDP is income. The monetary value of production and services. The main result of an economy.

So, no answer to my question?

GDP is to the economy like HP is to engines.

What is 'Gross Domestic Product - GDP'

Gross domestic product (GDP) is the monetary value of all the finished goods and services produced within a country's borders in a specific time period. Though GDP is usually calculated on an annual basis, it can be calculated on a quarterly basis as well. GDP includes all private and public consumption, government outlays, investments and exports minus imports that occur within a defined territory. Put simply, GDP is a broad measurement of a nation’s overall economic activity.

BREAKING DOWN 'Gross Domestic Product - GDP'

GDP is commonly used as an indicator of the economic health of a country, as well as a gauge of a country's standard of living. Since the mode of measuring GDP is uniform from country to country, GDP can be used to compare the productivity of various countries with a high degree of accuracy. Adjusting for inflation from year to year allows for the seamless comparison of current GDP measurements with measurements from previous years or quarters. In this way, a nation’s GDP from any period can be measured as a percentage relative to previous years or quarters. When measured in this way, GDP can be tracked over long spans of time and used in measuring a nation’s economic growth or decline, as well as in determining if an economy is in recession.

www.investopedia.com...

originally posted by: WhateverYouSay

Your source, the Tax Foundation, was accused of deliberate fraud by Paul Krugman, the same guy the OP cites in his criticism of Sanders' campaign. Regardless they are a group which always advocate lower taxes, and their data always mystically match their objectives.

Paul Krugman is a Keynesian. Nuff said. The only reason I quoted him in the OP is because he is highly regarded by the left wing.

As for lower taxes. Countries with lower taxes have historically preformed better than countries with higher taxes. That you can see in my earlier thread here. Lower taxes are one of the ingredients of an economically free country.

Back on topic, it's probably true that Friedman's numbers are too high. Sanders hasn't personally cited them to my knowledge, it was his campaign staff, and unsurprisingly, members of his campaign have cited the most favorable study. A bit like Republicans and the chart above.

They are too high IMO .

a reply to: TheBandit795

There's one thing that bothers me about that, where is their counter argument?

That just says, NO it won't do what you say, cause we said so.

Or did I miss something?

~Tenth

originally posted by: links234
And yet: Top Economists Are Backing Sen. Bernie Sanders on Establishing a $15 an Hour Minimum Wage

There's 210 economists who signed that letter.

A $15 an hour minimum wage would be a disaster. There would be more unemployment because the costs to employ minimum wage quality workers would be higher. Fast food restaurants for example are already replacing employees with machines. That's just one of the unintended consequences.

www.zerohedge.com...

Economists and financial experts in favor of Sen. Sanders' Wall St. Reform

There's 170 signatures on that one.

Break up the banks and they will grow back to where they where before, because it's not a true free market. They are able to defraud the system by creating loans out of thin air.

Forbes wrote an article about the Tax Foundation's findings;

The problem with the Tax Foundation analysis is that it does not account for the fact that all those businesses and individuals will not be paying for health insurance anymore.

Thanks for the link.

a reply to: tothetenthpower

Have you ever seen people like Paul Krugman having a valid counter argument to anything they criticise?

a reply to: TheBandit795

This is expected. I was reading a while ago that this was part of Hilary's upcoming smear campaign. The war chest normally reserved (and funded by Super PAC's) for the general election is now being broken open and spent to get rid of Sanders.

a reply to: MystikMushroom

Let them fight each other and make each other look ridiculous. In fact I wish for all Republican and Democrat candidates to lose credibility, and for people to start looking at alternatives.

a reply to: TheBandit795

It's not destroying Washington State...

Washington state in particular hit a sweet spot of both strong employment and wage growth, the report found.

An ADP index that combines both factors shows the Evergreen State far outpacing any other state in growth during the fourth quarter of 2015 compared with the year-earlier period.

Washington earned an index score of 117.9 — topping the national average of 106.8 and other states such as California, 108.7; Texas, 108.8; and New York, 105.4.

Washington state ranks No. 1 for combined job and wage growth

originally posted by: jrod
a reply to: TheBandit795
Coming from the same 'think-tanks' who told us 'trickle down economics' is a good thing.

Stuff like this tells me the establishment, the oligarchy is afraid of Bernie, very afraid of his popularity.

I'm not establishment, but I am definitely concerned by his economic illiteracy and the mobs of useful idiots latching on to him.

a reply to: Teikiatsu

I could say the same of the "useful idiots" attaching themselves to any other candidate.

originally posted by: introvert
Whether it's socialism or capitalism, it will not work if the people at the top manipulate the system to benefit the elite.

Socialism seeks to manipulating the system in toto by people at the top, so by your statement it can be extrapolated that Socialism does not work, period.

originally posted by: MystikMushroom
a reply to: Teikiatsu

I could say the same of the "useful idiots" attaching themselves to any other candidate.

You could, but that's rubber/glue reasoning.

Sanders is drawing YUGE crowds of naive youth who have not been tempered by reality. The same cannot be said for the other candidates.

originally posted by: TheBandit795
a reply to: tothetenthpower

Have you ever seen people like Paul Krugman having a valid counter argument to anything they criticise?

I'm just not impressed with open letters signed by economists when they claim to have done fact checking work, but won't provide it to the people they are criticizing.

I can't take their concerns seriously, without them educating me on WHY they think that. And, I don't think Bernie's plan is amazing either, don't get me wrong, but at least he has something on paper I can do math with to see if he's lying.

~Tenth

originally posted by: TheBandit795
Fast food restaurants for example are already replacing employees with machines. That's just one of the unintended consequences.

I know you're trying to make a point about people losing jobs because it'll be cheaper to employ machines/computers and I get that and that's fine. I don't want to stray too far off topic with what I'm about to say, I just want you to be aware of what some people are saying/suggesting.

Here are the jobs automation will kill next

Why AI could destroy more jobs than it creates, and how to save them

Robots Will Take Your Job, But First They'll Be Your Annoying Co-Worker

You can read about this concept, called Technological Unemployment.

People losing jobs to automation is coming no matter what the minimum wage is. You can order Taco Bell from an app, drive to the restaurant and pick up your food. It's not wildly different from walking into the restaurant, punching your order into a screen and walking away from the counter without having ever interacted with a cashier.

Businesses don't employ people just to employ them. If automation is better, faster, cheaper then that's the way it's going to go.

It's not restricted to just minimum wage jobs either; The Rise of Automated Cars Will Kill Thousands of Jobs Beyond Driving

Socialism is always short-burst successful. Then any effort to sustain the cash-flow requires regulation and taxation in evermore increases. Those choke off income to companies, individuals and especially governments in a death spiral. The delay in damaging effects caused by the loss of capital permits lying politicians that it's someone else's fault, not socialism.