1 Corinthians 15, Where Does Paul Get His Info?

a reply to: nenothtu

Tried pointing out the Comma Johanneum to the above member and several others that currently post on the forum...

They just shrug and continue on... likely without even bothering to read

Probably better you didn't waste your time

a reply to: ChesterJohn

I will speak to you, as I believe the other speaker has finished his discussion with you, in largest part. I want you to take some things into consideration.

First, that man's very nature is sinful. There is no good to be found in us, aside from the gifts of salvation from Jesus Christ, and the Gifts of the Spirit inside us.

The new covenant is now, right here, in this moment. According to Jeremiah it says:

31:33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel after that time,” declares the LORD. “I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.

This is very important. AFTER that time. All the promises for Israel are now - and have been since the Life, Death, Resurrection of Jesus Christ, and the subsequent outpouring of the Holy Spirit to the believers. All of it, already happened. It was in the process of happening in Jesus' life, and His death and resurrection was the fulfillment of the Kingdom. The only thing left after the outpouring of the Holy Spirit was the destruction of the temple.

It wasn't what the people wanted, it was not an earthly government such as what people imagine an earthly government to be - it is personal, individual, and exists today.

God's Kingdom, is here. Inside every single of His own. We are Israel, they, are Israel - why? Because we followed Him, our hearts are circumcised, we are in His Kingdom. There is not something separate for a plot of ground - it covers the whole of the earth. We, who are filled with the Holy Spirit, are in Zion. We are now the temple of the living God. There will never be another temple that is HIS, as we are the temple of God. We have a high priest, and none other is needed. Our bodies, are the temples of God, ALL those who are filled with the Holy Spirit.

Revelation is past, except for one final event, and that event could be 10,000 years future. We do not know. And, once filled with the Holy Spirit, it ceases to matter = because you found what matters. You have your eyes set on something earthly, but that is here. Instead, seek His face. If you find it, you will see the Kingdom here, right now.

We are a new creation, if we, still in the same bodies, can be called a new creation, how is it that you look for a different earth or a different heaven? But rather, you should look instead for something reborn, in each and every believer. Satan is defeated.

The thousand years you dream of, you will never see with your eyes. Because each and every person is depraved, thinks only evil continually. Man does not need Satan for that. Satan could be gone and you would never recognize it, such is the nature of man. The lion lays down with the lamb, right now.

Do you think that daily the dead to not come to life? Do you think the blind do not see every day? Do you think those miracles were literal only, with no representation of what happens in the life of the believer who comes to Christ and His Holy Spirit?

I was blind, but now I see. I am like Lazarus, who was raised from the dead. What do you think it means, let the dead bury the dead? You will never see these earthly things, because your eyes are not looking in the right place. Only your heart can see.

God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit, are not magic fairies who give you all your earthly worldly desires - They give that which is better. Look for that which is better than worldly desires.

a reply to: Kitana

First, that man's very nature is sinful. There is no good to be found in us, aside from the gifts of salvation from Jesus Christ, and the Gifts of the Spirit inside us.

This attitude is what I most dislike about Chrisianity, that and the need for a scapegoat to carry your sins for you.

And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Even after Adam and Eve were ejected from Garden, they maintained a personal relationship with God, without the need of a emissary. Noah had a personal relationship with God, as did Abraham and Moses, Joshua, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, et al.

In Genesis 4, God affirms the need to do good works, to be accepted by God.

But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.

6 And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?

7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

a reply to: Kitana

All Indications of a covenant reveal that it is a contract between two parties and one will do something if the other will do something. If there is a failure to do what is agreed to then the other party is not liable to keep his covenant.

A testament is where one person decides to bestow on another party something that the testator has and it is not contingent on anything the receiving party has done. Except that they accept what has been given them

Most of your post is speaking on two levels on spiritual and one physical. The two are not the same yet one affects the other. I have seen spiritually blind men have their eyes opened by the gospel of the grace of God. I have seen a man who has a irreparable hip become whole again with no surgery or medications and within a 24 hour period of Time. So does that answer you question.

I am a new creature spiritually despite my body still remaining in its present state of corruption. I look forward to the promise of a new body in Christ.

I am a member of a spiritual Kingdom spiritually at this time. But the earthly Kingdom is a promise to Israel and in order for God to show himself faithful and true he will fulfil that promise. If he does not then he is not worth following.

I believe that God provides for me everyday. He watches over us and answers prayers according to his will. I seek his face everyday, I pray with my family and alone everyday, I study his word as he commands everyday, I assemble with believers a few times a week if I can. But God has nor prospered me in the way Hagee, Olsteen and the others claim he should. But I am content in what ever state I am in and I do my best to provide and the lord does the rest.

I await my Lords return to gather me unto himself ever more to be with him.

a reply to: nenothtu

I prefer to believe God is a god who keeps his word and preserved his words as he promises. AS I said if he can't keep his promises then he is not worth following.

So I believe God Preserved word is correct in preserving all his words in the Holy Bible I have and hold in my hand everyday, than in the multitude of bibles men have created over the last 200 years that have removed verses, words, sections, phrases, that have caused more confusion and division.

a reply to: windword

I didn't write what I wrote to you, although I know it was in the thread.

I wrote it in the hopes that someday, the person to whom I was replying would read their bible and understand something. I was not trying to explain a concept, so much as give food for thought in the future. If I was trying to thoroughly explain a concept I would make posts much like the last one.

Take care.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Have a nice life, as I said, it was something to think about. Maybe when your heart is ready, you will understand what I said.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

This right here, actually amazes me. I am shocked beyond belief really. Akragon was right - that is too sad.

Double post.

a reply to: windword

You do know that God created the first use of the scapegoat.

Lev 16:20 ¶ And when he hath made an end of reconciling the holy place, and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat:
21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:
22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

I don't believe for one minute that "God" said that. That is superstitious tribal malarkey!

a reply to: windword

Okay, so let me do my best to explain a concept. Adam and Eve, in the garden of Eden, ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil - after specifically being told not to. The very first sin ever committed.

God did not say “If you eat from the tree, the fruit will kill you.” He said, “in the day that you eat from it you shall surely die.” The death-knell was not in the fruit, but in disobeying God. Adam and Eve were tried in something that was evil only because it was forbidden. Prior to the moment they had a relationship with God, that was pleasing to both God and man. It was a walking talking type of relationship with God, with only one rule, and great benefit.

That disobedience, placed a barrier between God and man, not of God's will, but of mankind's. We can argue that God should never have given mankind the choice but the fact is, God did. The relationship changed in that moment from one of closeness to one which was barred. In order to cover the shame of Adam and Eve, when they realized their nakedness before God, God himself killed animals - which at this time were not a food source - in order to cover their nakedness.

In effect, it was a senseless death brought on through realization of self disobedience, before God, to cover the shame of sin.

After this point, we see Cain and Able offering sacrifice - but are offered no explanation as to why. Perhaps it served as a reminder of the shame of sin, and the need to cover that shame before God, so God commanded it. This thought process is perhaps the most viable. Sacrifice at this point, became a reminder of the fall from Grace and the need for the shame of sin/disobedience to be covered. Sin is, in its very nature, antithetical to the nature of God. (Think lies verses truth, disobedience verses obedience, death verses life and so forth, everything which is opposing to, and opposite of, God's nature)

Now, sacrifice was not what God wanted from mankind. This was not his desire, it was the result - and the reminder. The nature of sin itself, the antithesis of God's nature, is what prevents man from approaching God in the manner that Adam and Eve were able. Sin, all that is antithetical to God's nature, becomes a barrier to that relationship with God.

We see later, that God speaks to His people through a high priest, someone set apart and aside for the express purpose of sacrifice for the people as well as the named communicator between God and His people. Jesus, later - became the removal of the barrier that sin brought, for us, and became our High Priest, through Him, we reestablished our relationship with God, similarly to how it was in the garden of Eden for Adam and Eve. He is, in effect, our covering of sin, His perfect nature, through the Holy Spirit, covers our antithetical (sinful) nature, so that we may have that relationship again (we become, in effect, clothed in Christ), and our High Priest, the one who stands before God for us - and the Holy Spirit the means of communication. So that now, even though we are no longer in the garden of Eden, that walking talking relationship is once more restored.

The physical, is always the reminder, or the representation, of the spiritual. The nature, taken on by Adam and Eve, was a different nature, and they took it on, through choice. That nature, is antithetical to God. And their offspring, had that nature then by default. Jesus, offered a way to take on a different nature in order to restore to us what we lost, through the sin of Adam.

"In those days they shall no longer say: “‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge.’ But everyone shall die for his own sin." Jeremiah 31:29

a reply to: Kitana

God did not say “If you eat from the tree, the fruit will kill you.” He said, “in the day that you eat from it you shall surely die.” The death-knell was not in the fruit, but in disobeying God. Adam and Eve were tried in something that was evil only because it was forbidden.

No. Adam and Eve did not do something that was evil in eating of the fruit. They exercised their "God given" free will. They were not ejected from the Garden because they disobeyed God, but because their eyes were opened and they became too much like God(s).

And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

Adam and Eve were created in God's image, after all.

The relationship changed in that moment from one of closeness to one which was barred. In order to cover the shame of Adam and Eve, when they realized their nakedness before God, God himself killed animals - which at this time were not a food source - in order to cover their nakedness.

The only change in the relationship between God and Adam and Eve was that they were cut off from free food and shelter, aka, daddy's wallet, and had to go out and earn their living, something that happens to every adolescent when they reach a certain maturity.

Also, there is no indication that God killed an animal to give Adam and Eve clothes.

And the LORD God made clothing from animal skins for Adam and his wife.

On the contrary, many believe that this represent incarnation into our animal body. God gave us the animal skin that we are born with, as well as the knowledge of "good and evil".

After this point, we see Cain and Able offering sacrifice

Biblical sacrifices were always food. It comes from mankind's natural empathy for all life, even animals, and in Cains case, plants. We must kill in order to live. Those are the rules of this world. Death is a guarantee here on planet earth. We all sacrificed our divinity, leaving God's side to experience the physical universe. And, to his side we all return.

Even Jesus, during the Last Supper, offers himself as food. The moral of the lesson? There's more to life than eating, consuming, materialism. Sacrifice from the heart, good works, loving your fellow man, forgiving people who hurt you, that's the message., not that you need an intercession to talk to God, or a martyr to bear you shame.

Jesus, on the Sermon on the Mount, taught us how to pray directly to the father, not to the "Son of Man".

After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

That being said, I respect your views and appreciate your taking the time to post your ideas and thoughts. You certainly are not alone in your beliefs. We'll just have to agree to disagree on doctrine.

a reply to: windword

to deny one is to deny it all. At least I know where you stand and you I.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

to deny one is to deny it all.

No it isn't. The Bible is a useful tool in navigating the inner journey that each soul accepts, experiencing God's wonderful creation. That being said, it's 98% allegory, and NOT to be taken literally, in my opinion.

a reply to: windword

I would agree with most of what you said, and tried to stay according to a more literal interpretation for those who need it, (they seem to be around) but I agree. The bible does not say God killed specifically, it just says He made, and you can take that as you wish - as it does not say more, all we can do is make suppositions on the rest without further information.

I did add a last and parting thought, that strayed from literal in my post, I did it in edit, perhaps after you read. So I will repost it here in response to this statement of yours:

not that you need an intercession to talk to God, or a martyr to bear you shame.

My addition was this:

The physical, is always the reminder, or the representation, of the spiritual. The nature, taken on by Adam and Eve, was a different nature, and they took it on, through choice. That nature, is antithetical to God. And their offspring, had that nature then by default. Jesus, offered a way to take on a different nature (clothed in HIM Galatians 3:27) in order to restore to us what we lost, through the sin of Adam.

"In those days they shall no longer say: “‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge.’ But everyone shall die for his own sin." Jeremiah 31:29

We diverge here more than likely, but this is the biblical explanation without going overly literal, in a short statement. But, I must say, I respect where you are in your beliefs as well.

God Bless.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: nenothtu

I prefer to believe God is a god who keeps his word and preserved his words as he promises. AS I said if he can't keep his promises then he is not worth following.

So I believe God Preserved word is correct in preserving all his words in the Holy Bible I have and hold in my hand everyday, than in the multitude of bibles men have created over the last 200 years that have removed verses, words, sections, phrases, that have caused more confusion and division.

Fair enough - I'm not here to dissuade you from your version of the Bible. I never said anything was removed - I said something was added, by men, not from God. The evidence bears that out wonderfully, and those who have eyes can see, those who have ears, can hear.

I find it somewhat amusing, in a tragic sort of way, that you will cling to a Bible version that is 400 years old - a mere drop in the bucket of Biblical time - and believe everything before or since is inferior. You mention the versions in the past 200 years, as if they are "not Bible", yet are silent on the versions from before the Anglican Version - are they "not Bible" too? I ask because they, too have this "omission", which points precisely to the notion that it is not an omission, but rather an addition.

It's fine if you believe that way - your belief is not mine, nor should it be. Unlike Kitana, I am not surprised, because I have been at this a long time. I've actually had preachers turn purple in the face as they vehemently argue with me that the Anglican Version was the original "word of God", and even the original autographs (if they were available), if they do not agree with that relatively new version, must necessarily be inferior.

Some minds may boggle, but mine does not, because I've seen it all before. To borrow a notion from the Shi'ites, "to you be your religion, and to me mine". Walk in peace.

a reply to: nenothtu

I know by comparison the versions over the last 200 have words and verse even chapters omitted, they have words changed and where words change meanings change.

I chose to use the Authorized version because after 11 years of studying from all but that version(I used and accessed over 30 different versions during that time). During that time I came across so many inconsistencies, and when comparing them to each other I found contradictions as well. That to me was unacceptable and it made it harder to trust God.

Then having a conversation with another pastor I admitted that if Gods words were in contradiction then that God was not worth following.

He gave me an Authorized Bible and asked I read it through. I never had one. I was always told it was to hard to read. By that time I knew it couldn't be any harder than the NASB (a college reading level version) I had used for years as the basis of my studies.

I have somewhat of a ritual when I get a new Bible the first thing I do is pray for God to reveal truth and then I went to Proverbs, There I checked and judge myself (I did that with all of them) Proverbs is a humbling book for me. That takes me a month to do that. After I am done doing that I proceeded to read it through.

I put all other versions aside and I did not make any attempts to go to the original languages during that time as well. I ended up reading the New Testament 3 times during the time it took me to read the Old Testament that was one year.

When I was finished I saw things I never seen in any of the 25 plus versions I had read and studied from. I was able to understand it which made me wonder why everyone was always saying it was so hard too. I found that I could define word unknown to me by the context of the verses that surrounded it. It was not that way with any other version I had read. I always had to use a dictionary or go to one of my Greek and Hebrew Word study Dictionaries to get meanings but not so with the AV.

I also noted a supernatural or divinely built in cross reference in it that connect things together. And upon comparison over the years that followed I saw that the divine cross reference was lost in the other versions. Not only that but I began to see where the words were changed and omitted. It was at that time I started to look to the Internet to see if others had found these things. And I was shocked that for many years people had been trying to expose these truths about the modern versions. But what shocked me more was the aggression they had for one another.

I saw that men on both sides of the issue would war against each other and call each other names and literally hate each other. Which was against the bibles teaches that we love one another. I stopped reading the commentaries of men and their books after that and ever since I have taught and preached using only the AV. I trusted that God had kept his promise to keep his words to this generation via the AV, something that the other versions could not convince me of seeing they all differed, but what made it more obvious was they all had pieces missing. The AV is the only modern version that has ALL the verses in it. Whether those verse are wrong or in error does not matter to me but that it contained them does matter.

I found I could teach everything any of the those other versions could teach from the AV so nothing was lost. I do not trust the systems of theology men teach, even through I have multiple degrees in theology myself. I count that all as lost and have endeavoured these last 13 years to stick to the Bible, compare the things in it with itself and no teachings of men at all. The thesis I submitted just 6 years ago though was not accepted by all my scholars but they did give me my last degree. I did not write anything to change their minds on their theology but instead showed through the word that God's Son was the purpose this earth was originally made from the beginning of God's way, I was able to weave a thread showing this and much more. My grade was not the highest and a few were offended that I used the AV. But all of them were amazed that from scriptures I showed something many never find, that the Book really does speak of Jesus Christ and his Exaltation and Glory from everlasting unto everlasting. One of those things is the earth is indeed older than 6,500 years old and believe me they were not agreeable to that but with the Biblical proof that I presented they could not deny the possibility.

I have lost friends and associations because I saw that men's systems of theology that formed the different denominations and sects were because people used God's word. They would go back to the Greek and Hebrew to change words they did not agree with in the English, they would reinterpret it to justify their doctrines and cause divisions of God's people and promote their own agenda.

Today, I still preach and teach but I will no longer give in to the slight of men but will trust God to be true. So that means I believe God kept his word and preserved his words to this generation in the AV (remember it is the only version with all the verses in it) and I will never give that up. If I am wrong I will have hurt no one and my life will be judged by the righteous judge. My faith is in God my saviour Jesus Christ and in him I stand.

Maybe I rambled to much but I hope it makes some sense to you on why I feel the way I do.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Whether those verse are wrong or in error does not matter to me but that it contained them does matter.

This here, is so wrong. Wrong in ways that are an affront to the bible itself. You are saying you don't care if what you read is true or not, so long as it says what you want it to say. Gee, why don't you just write your own bible then, so long as it fits what you want it to fit. The fact its a lie and the words are not in the original Greek writings just don't matter Right?

What you have said in that post, is that people who made it to professorial level in biblical study, all disagreed with your view, and you made it through seminary by the skin of your teeth at best.

I don't think they should ever have passed you. It is a shame that you teach anyone, anything that has to do with God's Holy Word. Seriously, just start your own religion since what the bible originally and actually says makes no difference to you.

"He (the devil) was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. "But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me."

Who are you following then, if you prefer falsehoods over truth?

a reply to: Kitana
I was not replying to you but fair enough, be careful on how you judge others, surely it is not Christian to do so as a matter of fact as I have had been told plenty of times on ATS

Mt 7:1, 2 Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

I don't have to write my own I have a preserved Bible kept by God unto this generation. The real problem is many men have written their own bible versions and cause more confusion, contradictions and doubt in the word and remember that is not of God.

1Co 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Any Bible that does not a have all of Gods words and cannot be found to be the fulfilled promise is not Holy, it is a cursed counterfeit.

Deut 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.
Deut 12:32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.
Pr 30:6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
Rev 22:18, 19 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

I believe the preserved word of God, the Holy Bible as found in the AV to all be true and without error, and are a blessing to all who trust in them.

Pr 30:5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
Ps 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
Ps 18:30 As for God, his way is perfect: the word of the LORD is tried: he is a buckler to all those that trust in him.
Ps 119:140 ¶ Thy word is very pure: therefore thy servant loveth it.
Pr 30:5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
Joh 17:17 ¶ Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

You will be held accountable for your own words as I mine.

Go in peace