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1 Corinthians 15, Where Does Paul Get His Info?

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posted on Feb, 21 2016 @ 02:55 PM
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a reply to: windword

For starters, this article references about 3 dozen scriptures which you claim do not exist.

www.icr.org...




posted on Feb, 21 2016 @ 03:17 PM
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a reply to: KEACHI
amazing isn't it?



posted on Feb, 21 2016 @ 03:41 PM
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originally posted by: KEACHI
a reply to: windword

For starters, this article references about 3 dozen scriptures which you claim do not exist.

www.icr.org...


If you had read this thread, you'd see that those scriptures have been addresses and discussed in depth.

If you think that we've missed something that your article expounds on, that might clear these questions up, please, by all means, quote your cited article. But I'm not going to read a bunch of rhetoric that's already been debunked.


edit on 21-2-2016 by windword because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 21 2016 @ 04:42 PM
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a reply to: windword


You wrote QUOTE:

"Where did Paul, AKA Saul of Tarsus, get his information when he wrote the following 'For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures that he was buried and that he was raised on the third day according to the scriptures...." UNQUOTE

The process of looking up verses in the Tanakh (i.e. Old Testament & Apocrypha) to support a theological argument is loosely called 'proof-texting' and we see a number of these OT citation-collections among the Dead Sea Scrolls.

Obviously all of the exact 'scriptures' Paul is here referring to can never be known for his own proof-texting, but he does make a number of quotations from the Tanakh in his Epistles which shows where he was looking.

Here is what he wrote in 1 Corinithians 15:3ff

παρέδωκα γὰρ ὑμῖν ἐν πρώτοις, ὃ καὶ παρέλαβον, ὅτι Χριστὸς ἀπέθανεν ὑπὲρ τῶν ἁμαρτιῶν ἡμῶν κατὰ τὰς γραφάς, 4 καὶ ὅτι ἐτάφη, καὶ ὅτι ἐγήγερται τῇ ἡμέρᾳ τῇ τρίτῃ κατὰ τὰς γραφάς,

For what I received I passed on to you as of primary importance that

1. Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
2. that he was buried [kata tas graphas = according to the Scriptures]
3. that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.

Also cf: Romans 1:2
"which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy Scriptures..."

Romans 15:4
"For whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction, so that through perseverance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope..."

Romans 16:26
"but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal Theos, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith..."

The passages from the Tanakh which reflect #1 above would most likely be taken from Isaiah 53:3-6, 12

"Surely he took up our pain and bore our suffering, yet we considered him punished by God, stricken by him, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions,he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him,and by his wounds we are healed. We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to our own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all - Yet it was YHWH's will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though YHWH makes his life an offering for sin. For he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors."

Interestingly, the Talmudic Rebbes wrote in terms of the suffering Messiah the following:

cf: 'And when Israel is sinful, the Messiah seeks for mercy upon them, as it is written, "By His stripes we were healed, and He carried the sins of the many; and made intercession for the transgressors." (B're#h Rabbah)

also cf: "Messiah son of Joseph was slain, as it is written, "They shall look unto me whom they have pierced; and they shall mourn for him as one mourneth for his only son" (Suk. 52a)

Whether the last quotation (from Zechariah 12:10) was meant to be part of Paul's proof texting for the Messiah is not known (although the 4th Gospel makes use of it) .

For the burial aspect (which Paul mentioned as part of the tradition he inherited) we can turn to the same text (Isaiah 53:8-9) which show that the whole of Isaiah 53 was probably in his mind and those of the early Nazorean churches..

"He was cut off from the land of the Living - for the Transgression of my people was he stricken - he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death."

For the Resurrection we have a number of choices

e.g.Hosea 6:2
"After two days he will revive us : on the third day he shall raise us up..."

Psalms 16:10
'For you will not abandon his soul to Sheol, neither will you allow your Holy One to see corruption...'
to which may be added various and sundry passages

e.g. again Isaiah 53:10
"Yet it was the Will of YHWH to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though YHWH made his life an offering for sin,he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of YHWH will prosper in his hand. After he has suffered, he will see the light of life..."

Isaiah 25:8 'He shall swallow up death in Victory..." quoted in 1 Corinthians 15:54

There are a number of 'exaltation' and 'escape from death' passages in the Psalms which also may have been in the back of the minds of the earliest Christians who were midrashing the 'Scriptures' to make sense of the unexpected crucifixion of their Master....

Psalms 80:17
"Let your hand rest on the man at your right hand, the son of man you have raised up yourself."

Psalms 118:15ff
"The right hand of YHWH is exalted: the right hand of YHWH doeth valiantly. I shall not die, but live, and declare the works of YHWH. YHWH hath chastened me sore: but he hath not given me over unto death. Open to me the gates of righteousness: that I may go through them..."

Psalms 30:1-3
"I will exalt you, YHWH for you lifted me out of the depths and did not let my enemies gloat over me. YHWH my clan-god I called to you for help, and you healed me. You, O YHWH, was the one who brought me up from the realm of the dead;
you spared me from going down to the pit."

Psalms 17:14ff
"Rise up, YHWH and with your sword rescue me from the wicked.By your hand save me from such people, YHWH from those of this world whose reward is in this life.As for me, I will be vindicated and will see your face; when I awake, I will be satisfied with seeing your likenesses..."

There are more than a dozen of these exaltation / salvation passages in addition from the above taken from the prophets and psalms, but this gives a general idea of the midrashic proof-texting citation-process at work....





edit on 21-2-2016 by Sigismundus because: stuttttttttering computterr keyboardddd



posted on Feb, 21 2016 @ 04:54 PM
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a reply to: Seede

You wrote QUOTE " My above source lists Phillipians, 1st Corinthians, 2nd Corinthians, Colossians, Philemon, Ephesians, and Hebrews as being Pseudepigraphal letters. That leaves Romans, 1st Timothy, 2nd Timothy, Titus, 1st Thessalonians, 2nd Thessalonians, and Galations as genuine. Difference in scholarship? " UNQUOTE

Actually, the list of 'probably' authentic Pauline letters are (according to CK Barrett and others in the field):

Philemon, 1 Corinthians, Galatians, Romans, 1 Thessalonians and possibly Philippians.

2 Corinthians seems to have been patched together from at least 3 shorter Pauline letter fragments, and no serious scholar to-day believes the Pastoral Epistles are Pauline in the form in which we read them to-day (1-2 Timothy and Titus) - they are deutero-Pauline as is Ephesians (which in some mSS have it as 'to the Laodeceans') Colossians and 2nd Thessalonians. And Hebrews was definitely not a Pauline epistle at all.

Just a quick FYI to let you know where modern scholarship rests to-day on this issue.



edit on 21-2-2016 by Sigismundus because: stutteringg compputerrr keyboardddddd



posted on Feb, 21 2016 @ 05:58 PM
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a reply to: Sigismundus

I accept all that are found in the Preserved word of God.



posted on Feb, 21 2016 @ 06:33 PM
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a reply to: Sigismundus




There are more than a dozen of these exaltation / salvation passages in addition from the above taken from the prophets and psalms, but this gives a general idea of the midrashic proof-texting citation-process at work....


Are we supposed to believe that every time there is an exaltation, or every time the Psalms say's "I", "Me" or "He", it's referring to the Messiah? Every time someone complains of suffering, it's the Messiah?

We've already looked at Isaiah. Isaiah's character only fits the life and death of Jesus in a few forced verses, the rest doesn't fit him at all, unless you use a big shoehorn and cut off some toes!




edit on 21-2-2016 by windword because: (no reason given)

edit on 21-2-2016 by windword because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 21 2016 @ 07:38 PM
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Well Windword....it is blatantly obvious that you have no intention of adopting a new view on this subject...in fact I can see that the most likely reason for the thread was to proselytize on behalf of your own brand of religion. (Yes I did watch the video ).
But....thats ok. We all like to share our belief systems ...if we have one.
I would like to ask you something though....you readily admitted in your response to my post....that there was no question that Israel practiced animal sacrifice. Where do you believe this practice came from and why ? Why did Israel build a temple and follow the temple ceremonies ? Do you think that they mistakenly took Moses words literally when it was all meant to be allegory ?
I have no problem with interpreting stories in the bible as metaphors ...although I think it is too big of a stretch to interpret ALL of them that way ( most of them include too much detail to be seen that way... imo) I personally don't have a problem seeing the stories as true...and finding metaphors within them. Also...How could the nation of Israel even exist...if the story of Abraham isnt true ?
edit on 21-2-2016 by HarryJoy because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 21 2016 @ 07:53 PM
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a reply to: windword

Isaiah was not always speaking of him self he was a prophet of God he spoke for God to the people about future things as well as the present.



posted on Feb, 21 2016 @ 07:59 PM
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a reply to: HarryJoy
Just a note metaphors and allegories are not the same thing.


Allegory vs Metaphor

Allegory and metaphor are figures of speeches often seen in literature and art. Metaphor is a phrasal expression, which is used to make a comparison of unrelated objects and actions. Allegory can be said to be an extended metaphor. Allegory is a comparison on a deeper note.

When compared to metaphor, allegory can be longer passages of comparison. An allegory, which is a substitute for another object or action, includes more fine points than a metaphor.

While metaphors are generally seen in literature, allegories are seen in literature, sculptures, painting and a lot more, which means that allegory has a wider presentation than metaphor.
www.differencebetween.net...



posted on Feb, 21 2016 @ 08:30 PM
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a reply to: HarryJoy




I would like to ask you something though....you readily admitted in your response to my post....that there was no question that Israel practiced animal sacrifice. Where do you believe this practice came from and why ?


It started out as a respect for nature and reverence for all life. The first sacrifices were called "love feasts"


Leviticus 19:5
And if ye offer a sacrifice of peace offerings unto the Lord, ye shall offer it at your own will.

6 It shall be eaten the same day ye offer it, and on the morrow: and if ought remain until the third day, it shall be burnt in the fire.

7 And if it be eaten at all on the third day, it is abominable; it shall not be accepted.


This goes with the idea that God takes the soul of the faithful before it can experience the shame of rotting flesh. As cited in Hosea and Psalms.



Do you think that they mistakenly took Moses words literally when it was all meant to be allegory ?


Who are "they"?



How could the nation of Israel even exist...if the story of Abraham isnt true ?


How could Egypt exist without ISIS and RA?

How could Rome exist without Romulus and Remus?

How could Greece exist without Zeus?



posted on Feb, 21 2016 @ 08:34 PM
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a reply to: ChesterJohn

Isaiah wasn't ever speaking of himself. He was writing a poem, a saga of sorts, about the sorrows of his people, who were captive in Babylon. His hero was the personification of The Nation of Israel.



posted on Feb, 21 2016 @ 09:16 PM
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a reply to: windword

the literature that Isaiah uses may contain Poetry or song but it is classified as Prophecy. Once the literature type is established then it is study accordingly as such.

As far as he being in Babylon that is an error he was a prophet under King Hezekiah in Jerusalem and he prophesied of Babylon conquering Jerusalem, He prophesied against Assyria and Babylon. And the Lord Promised Hezekiah that none of the prophecies spoken again Jerusalem and Judah would take place until after he died.

2 Chronicles 32:26 Notwithstanding Hezekiah humbled himself for the pride of his heart, both he and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, so that the wrath of the LORD came not upon them in the days of Hezekiah.


His Hero was God



posted on Feb, 21 2016 @ 09:40 PM
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a reply to: ChesterJohn


What does the Suffering Servant have to do with Abraham Lincoln?

Nothing, but all this talk of shoehorning known events into vague prophecies made me wonder… would it be possible to take another iconic individual and match him up to the Suffering Servant?

Abraham Lincoln was the first person to come to mind, so let’s gave it a try…



He acted wisely and was highly exalted (52:1)
He was disfigured –Lincoln was taller than most men, and shot in the head (52:2)
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him — he wasn’t very attractive and came from a poor family (53:2)
He was despised and rejected — by the South and slave owners (53:3)
He was familiar with suffering — he suffered from chronic depression, lost two young children, and constantly anguished over the Civil War (53:3)
He was pierced — shot in the head! (53:5)
And died for our transgressions — he died because of our immoral desire to enslave others (53:5)
The punishment that brought us peace was upon him — he kept the union together while bringing freedom to the slaves (53:5)
Lincoln did not open his mouth when he was slaughtered (53:7)
He was cut off from the land of the living (53:8)
He was assigned a grave with the wicked — he was murdered by an assassin (53:9)
And with the rich in his death — via costly and elaborate monuments (53:9)
It was the Lord’s will for Lincoln to suffer for the freedom of others — can you prove it wasn’t? (53:10)
Lincoln had literal offspring (53:10)
God prolonged his days — He died at 56, when life expectancy was less than 40 (53:10)
Lincoln’s knowledge justified many (53:11)
And he was given a portion among the great — he is remembered as one of our greatest Presidents (53:12)
He made intercession for the transgressors — the South (53:12)
And he poured out his life — in service to his cause — unto death (53:12)
And just for good measure, Lincoln was also seen by several credible eye-witnesses after his death!

If we can find 19 similarities between the Suffering Servant and Abraham Lincoln, is it really so hard to imagine that early Christians couldn’t do the same with Jesus?

The Christians inside my head are now yelling: “But wait! Lincoln never fulfilled all the messianic prophecies!” True, but neither did Jesus! Perhaps these unfulfilled prophecies are still on Lincoln’s to-do list for when he returns… perhaps his return is right around the corner… we’ll just have to wait and see. (Or not.)
500questions.wordpress.com...



posted on Feb, 22 2016 @ 08:41 AM
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Windword, I am sorry I got busy yesterday and didn't get online but for about 5 minutes yesterday. I have noticed that while no one has touched upon the points I was planning on discussing with you, from a brief glance at this thread, it seems you do a lot of sticking your fingers in your ears saying la la la la la, instead of discussing. So on that note, I will simply leave the thread to follow its natural conclusion, without me.

Take care and good luck.

And no, its not an insult to you, it's just how I am. I don't like playing games really, I prefer discussion.
edit on 22-2-2016 by Kitana because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 22 2016 @ 08:51 AM
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a reply to: Kitana

That's fine. Perhaps you might consider putting your thoughts down and making your own thread with your own angle.


edit on 22-2-2016 by windword because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 22 2016 @ 10:05 AM
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a reply to: windword

You can not debunk the fact they are there. And I do not have to address every post when commenting on an OP.



posted on Feb, 22 2016 @ 10:55 AM
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originally posted by: windword
a reply to: Logarock




Anyway Jesus Himself said that He was a sign, a type of Jonah. Why don't you look that up. Its pretty strong stuff maybe to strong for you.


The New Testament doesn't prove the New Testament. In other words, The words penned by the authors of the gospels, having the biblical Jesus claiming that he's the Messiah, or the sign of Jonah, doesn't mean anything if it doesn't fit with Jewish messianic tradition and/or fulfill prophecies.



The New Testament must be used in a debate like this......without breaking down the academically observed rules for debates like this.

You certainly cant use the New Testament in your OP and then make it off limits for use by others in the debate. I mean the sophomoric logic ends up being "and you cant disprove the new testament with the new testament". Do you see how stupid that is? You just want free fields of fire for yourself in a debate.



posted on Feb, 22 2016 @ 11:48 AM
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a reply to: Logarock

I used the New Testament, where Paul's words are found, to ask: "What Old Testament scriptures require the Messiah to die for our sins and rise again on the 3rd day?"

So far, people have tried to superimpose the life and time of Jesus of Nazareth over Isaiah's hero, taking scriptures that work for their thesis and ignoring the ones that don't. Cherry picking, in other words.

Either Jesus fulfilled the prophecies, or he did not. Belief that he will, one day, come back and finish the job is just that, belief. It is in no way proof that Jesus was, in fact, the incarnation of Isaiah's hero.



posted on Feb, 22 2016 @ 11:58 AM
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a reply to: windword

19 similarities does not a prophecy fulfil.

However there are over 600 prophecies concerning Jesus Christ. At his first visitation 353 have already been FULFILLED (not just similar but fulfilled), and another 300 plus await fulfilment at his second visitation at which time he will established the promised earthly Kingdom with Israel.

353 Prophecies Fulfilled


edit on 22-2-2016 by ChesterJohn because: (no reason given)



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