1 Corinthians 15, Where Does Paul Get His Info?

originally posted by: windword

originally posted by: Logarock
a reply to: windword


Great question Windword. Thats Jonah 3 days in the deep and as Klass said of the other, probably to do with the sacrificial laws for lamb or scape goat.

You're the first person to bring up Jonah. Star for you!

But, was it Jewish tradition to believe that Jonah died in the belly of whale and then was brought back to life, resurrected, like Jesus supposedly was? Or, did Jonah suffer through the ordeal and live to fulfill God's command?

Jesus himself was using Jonah before He died. His disciples didn't figure out what he was talking about until He resurrected. And yes there was not Jewish tradition about Jonah dying in the whale.

Could it be that that which was not told them but now Paul helps them to see

Isaiah 52:15 So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.

is about Christ dying for the sins of man that Paul taught and says is according to scriptures as seen in Isaiah 53:10 ¶ Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin,

a reply to: Logarock

Jesus himself was using Jonah before He died.

The New Testament doesn't prove the New Testament.

Anyway, I really don't see how the story of Jonah applies to Jesus' story. Jonah wasn't a supposed messiah. Jonah was rebellious, and he refused God's orders to go to Nineveh. God punished him and had a great fish swallow him up, then barf him up 3 days later. Then, Jonah went to Nineveh.

Jesus wasn't rebellious. Did what God told him to do and got murdered for it.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Isaiah's hero is NOT Jesus of Nazareth. Isaiah's hero is the personification of Israel.

Is Jesus the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53?

“Israel, the servant of God, suffered as a humiliated individual.”
~ The New English Bible, Oxford Study Edition

“…In the original historical context, however, the servant appears to have been exiled Israel. God’s deliverance and exaltation of Israel will astound the nations who formerly despised this disfigured slave.”
~ The Harper Collins Study Bible

“The Lord speaks, promising that the servant Israel, although disfigured because of the agonies of exile, will be exalted so that nations will be astonished.”
~ The New Interpreter’s Study Bible

a reply to: windword

anything but believe the Bible.

Oh well you can't say we didn't try.

Good Night sir windword

a reply to: windword

LOL

Nice link... think i'll have a look through those questions

a reply to: windword

The answer lies in the theme of the rest of the book. It speaks of spirit/Christ/last Adam vs flesh/law/dust. His reading in Christ of the scriptures takes on a new life unlike the dead reading taking place. Letter kills but spirit gives life. hes allegorising the entire oT narrative in 1 Cor. The whole exodus narrative earlier in the book where it speaks of the rock that watered them being Christ and also in ch. 15 it compares the man of heaven with the man of dust. That is the key to the mystery.

Whether you agree with Paul or not is another question. But the same situation was on the Emmaus road where the resurrected Jesus aka the man of heaven or the mind of Christ opens the eyes of the disciples to see the spiritual reading of the scriptures that is not literal, not by the letter, not a show me the chapter and verse.

Jacob I loved and Esau I hated. It's man of heaven Israel vs the hairy beast man Esau or Edom which is the exact word Adam. As in the carnal mind/man/law/letter.

These are some guide posts again take it or leave it but the question won't be answered in the manner you were hoping (IMO).

The crescendo of his message and interpretation:
1 Cor 15
As in Adam all die ( in the carnal mind all are dead, letter kills) so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

He now allegorizes the entire Jewish festival schedule to be about the resurrection.
Each in his own order. First fruits (aka Passover) then those are his at his coming (Pentecost "Christians"), then comes the end when he delivers all rule and power (feast of tabernacles, grape harvest).

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: Logarock

Jesus himself was using Jonah before He died.

The New Testament doesn't prove the New Testament.

Anyway, I really don't see how the story of Jonah applies to Jesus' story. Jonah wasn't a supposed messiah. Jonah was rebellious, and he refused God's orders to go to Nineveh. God punished him and had a great fish swallow him up, then barf him up 3 days later. Then, Jonah went to Nineveh.

Jesus wasn't rebellious. Did what God told him to do and got murdered for it.

Don't think this is a case to use the "new test don't prove the new test". Also the way you talk some times one has to wonder if you really know the material. Jesus may have not been a complete type of Jonah but He did ask the father for a way out......and considering what He must have known about the father and the mission......asking could be construed as something needing cured i.e. by his suffering He learned humility.

Anyway Jesus Himself said that He was a sign, a type of Jonah. Why don't you look that up. Its pretty strong stuff maybe to strong for you.

a reply to: Logarock

Anyway Jesus Himself said that He was a sign, a type of Jonah. Why don't you look that up. Its pretty strong stuff maybe to strong for you.

The New Testament doesn't prove the New Testament. In other words, The words penned by the authors of the gospels, having the biblical Jesus claiming that he's the Messiah, or the sign of Jonah, doesn't mean anything if it doesn't fit with Jewish messianic tradition and/or fulfill prophecies.

originally posted by: JackReyes
a reply to: windword

Well, I took the liberty to use Scripture to reason with you, since you are trying to use Scripture to refute it.

And you are correct, it does take faith to believe what Scripture states. But not a blind faith, we can prove to ourselves that it could not have been just any works of man.

But since you came to this conversation asking us to use Scripture to explain Scripture that is what I have done.

With people who don't want to reason with scripture, I won't. And to those who have no faith, but a willing to reason, I would start by helping them to understand God's word is truth, even if that takes time, and means explaining why we can trust it.

And as for prophecy, not everyone can understand it. It does take faith in God and a humble heart for it to be revealed to him.

But even Scripture states that in the last days many would rove about to and fro in Scripture and God's word would become clearly understandable to the righteous, while the wicked will continue in their wickedness and not understand anything:

(Daniel 12:4) “As for you, Daniel, keep the words secret, and seal up the book until the time of the end. Many will rove about, and the true knowledge will become abundant.”


(Daniel 12:9, 10) . . .: “Go, Daniel, because the words are to be kept secret and sealed up until the time of the end. 10 Many will cleanse themselves and whiten themselves and will be refined. And the wicked ones will act wickedly, and none of the wicked will understand; but those having insight will understand.

You must understand just how foolish it sounds, to proclaim that the scriptures show truth and does not continuously refute itself.

It does refute itself more often than can be believed, which I "believe" is the real reason it gets defended so much.

It is like an upside down spaceship, proclaiming itself heading to the stars, all the while cuttings itself down, drilling into the ground, and asking "why".

It is truly the most bizarre thing I have ever "witnessed".

The entirety of Creation has been damaged long before this book came along, which is even evident in the facts that you believe something must die for something elses problems.

No matter how one looks at this construct, they must realize that "NATURE" is a degraded damaged, and literally beyond repair system, that is held together with delusion, misinformation and "faith" of the ones who could likely repair everything, if they could get away from the incredible trap they are in.

Make no mistake, those that spread this religion, and any other, have so much promise, and yet find themselves standing in the way of victory.

It is sad, that they shall find themselves completely unrewarded as has always been the case, for no rewards abound in this system, unless one "believes" that all that is UNTRUE, is TRUE.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: windword

So for you it is ok to take what these men say without scepticism, criticism and doubts but it's OK to approach the Bible in that way.

Well I do believe the Preserved word of God is true.

What preserved word of God ?

Are you now adding to the books as has been continuously done ?

I cant wait for the next generation to add some more, and call it GODS WORDS.

originally posted by: JackReyes
a reply to: windword

That's okay. I disagree with you, and everything is written down here on record. I'll leave it at that.

I will give you this, you have a lot of valid points against the way Christendom thinks, it is full of false teachings, and anyone who understands that can sympathize with you to a point. At least we both are in agreement that Jesus is not God, and never claimed to be God.

Unfortunately you have not come to appreciate the need to believe in and put faith in him for salvation. For only through Jesus can we attain it. But everlasting life, not everyone has a heart disposed for it.

Noone has a heart disposed for it, but anyone can try a drug and see what happens can they not ?

The need to believe in something that you yourself claim is false is comical on every front.

You are even worse off than the rest who think you are crazy for denying the savior as GOD.

Avatar souls, Pavers of the way, they are all destroyed, you have no real idea what has gone on,

NOONE speaks for me, or you either, we can wipe away everything you believe, and nothing can stop that either.

Are you prepared to have your entire paradigm ripped away ?

Until recently, even all the souls that thought they were on a enlightenment path, and that they could help others, they have had, and ARE having THEIR blinders ripped off, so they can realize just how much they have crushed everything the creator intended,

The Bible is NOTHING compared to the REAL-ITY of just how messed up things are, in all of CREATION.

You will be BEGGING for the simplicity, but none will come.

I speak this way, because I can actually see the bonds you shrowd yourselves, and others in, they are actually far worse in overall effect than the destroyed addicts in the streets, because they can affect EVERYTHING.

It is sad, because initially you mean well, but do not realize the hijack in its lowest form, much less highest and the big picture of what really is CREATION.

The WARGAMES, are about to become REAL.

originally posted by: superluminal11
a reply to: windword

GENESIS 3:22

Behold, the man has become as one of "us" to know what is good and what is evil.

This is where it all went south and the fallin ones took over making man to believe they were God or The Prime Creator

There is no time space good evil right wrong light or darkness in the Fathers Kingdom. But if you must---Wear it down to the bone til you have had enough.

Take it a step further, and realize the "Father" was gone at the same moment "choice" appeared.

The Kingdom you think you seek, does not , and will not, exist.

originally posted by: ParasuvO

originally posted by: JackReyes
a reply to: windword

Well, I took the liberty to use Scripture to reason with you, since you are trying to use Scripture to refute it.

And you are correct, it does take faith to believe what Scripture states. But not a blind faith, we can prove to ourselves that it could not have been just any works of man.

But since you came to this conversation asking us to use Scripture to explain Scripture that is what I have done.

With people who don't want to reason with scripture, I won't. And to those who have no faith, but a willing to reason, I would start by helping them to understand God's word is truth, even if that takes time, and means explaining why we can trust it.

And as for prophecy, not everyone can understand it. It does take faith in God and a humble heart for it to be revealed to him.

But even Scripture states that in the last days many would rove about to and fro in Scripture and God's word would become clearly understandable to the righteous, while the wicked will continue in their wickedness and not understand anything:

(Daniel 12:4) “As for you, Daniel, keep the words secret, and seal up the book until the time of the end. Many will rove about, and the true knowledge will become abundant.”


(Daniel 12:9, 10) . . .: “Go, Daniel, because the words are to be kept secret and sealed up until the time of the end. 10 Many will cleanse themselves and whiten themselves and will be refined. And the wicked ones will act wickedly, and none of the wicked will understand; but those having insight will understand.

You must understand just how foolish it sounds, to proclaim that the scriptures show truth and does not continuously refute itself..

I understand that it is foolish to a person with no spirituality. Even scripture states that God's word is foolishness to the unreasoning and stupid:

(1 Corinthians 2:14) . . .But a physical man does not accept the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot get to know them, because they are examined spiritually.


So yes I can understand very much the reality of the truth of God's word in Holy Scripture being foolish to the physical man who cannot see with the eyes of faith.

But on the other hand, can you comprehend, while the spiritual man can see this, the physical man cannot grasp what he can see. For the spiritual man can see all things, yes, even the deep things of God, which seem foolish to the physical man.

And there is no physical man that denies scriptures, that does not understand prophecy, that can instruct a spiritual man. While at the same time the spiritual man is able to examine all things.


(1 Corinthians 2:15, 16) . . .However, the spiritual man examines all things, but he himself is not examined by any man. 16 For “who has come to know the mind of Jehovah, so that he may instruct him?” But we do have the mind of Christ.

originally posted by: ParasuvO

originally posted by: JackReyes
a reply to: windword

That's okay. I disagree with you, and everything is written down here on record. I'll leave it at that.

I will give you this, you have a lot of valid points against the way Christendom thinks, it is full of false teachings, and anyone who understands that can sympathize with you to a point. At least we both are in agreement that Jesus is not God, and never claimed to be God.

Unfortunately you have not come to appreciate the need to believe in and put faith in him for salvation. For only through Jesus can we attain it. But everlasting life, not everyone has a heart disposed for it.

Noone has a heart disposed for it, but anyone can try a drug and see what happens can they not ?

(Acts 13:48) . . .When those of the nations heard this, they began to rejoice and to glorify the word of Jehovah, and all those who were rightly disposed for everlasting life became believers.

originally posted by: ParasuvO
The entirety of Creation has been damaged long before this book came along, which is even evident in the facts that you believe something must die for something elses problems.

No matter how one looks at this construct, they must realize that "NATURE" is a degraded damaged, and literally beyond repair system, that is held together with delusion, misinformation and "faith" of the ones who could likely repair everything, if they could get away from the incredible trap they are in.

The damaged Creation might not be everything; the mere fact you refuse its validity implies that you're acknowledging & tuning into something else, even if it can't be "physically" sensed yet.

a reply to: zardust

Jacob I loved and Esau I hated. It's man of heaven Israel vs the hairy beast man Esau or Edom which is the exact word Adam. As in the carnal mind/man/law/letter.

Did you watch the video I posted "Rape of the Virgin"? It addresses just that, beautifully.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

a reply to: windword

the trust of corrupt men over God's Preserved perfect and uncorruptible words is a spiritual defect that can only be remedied by the Blood of Christ.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: windword

the trust of corrupt men over God's Preserved perfect and uncorruptible words is a spiritual defect that can only be remedied by the Blood of Christ.

The very belief in blood sacrifice is to think that some form of sanity can somehow be gained in a backwards compatible way with the insane practices of ancient priests.

a reply to: yosako

It is not any sacrifice I have made by bulls or goats but God himself I only access that salvation and changed life by faith

Hebrews 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

Hebrews 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Hebrews 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

Hebrews 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Romans 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.