1 Corinthians 15, Where Does Paul Get His Info?

a reply to: Klassified

TextThe disputed letters... 2 Thessalonians, Colossians, Ephesians, 1 and 2 Timothy, and Titus.

My above source lists Phillipians, 1st Corinthians, 2nd Corinthians, Colossians, Philemon, Ephesians, and Hebrews as being Pseudepigraphal letters. That leaves Romans, 1st Timothy, 2nd Timothy, Titus, 1st Thessalonians, 2nd Thessalonians, and Galations as genuine.
Difference in scholarship?

a reply to: Seede

Difference in scholarship?

More of the usual. Even Christianity's most learned men and women cannot agree on what's what. Par for the course.

a reply to: Klassified

Just curious. Where do you personally see the conflict?

I thought I outlined it pretty well in the OP, but oh well, let's try this again.

For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

There is no Hebrew scripture that prophesied, nor is there any expectation of "The Christ", the Jewish Messiah, to "die for our sins.

To wit:

John 20:9
For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.

What scripture? Not yet written New Testament scripture?

Who were the Corinthians that Paul was addresses? Were they Jewish scholars of the Law? Probably not. They were probably new Gentile converts who were versed in pagan tradition, both written and oral. So, perhaps Paul was quoting Pagan scripture?

As to the women seeing Jesus first. Peter was allegedly the first "DISCIPLE" to see Jesus.

Wasn't Peter one of the 12?

And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

Who was Cephas?

According to Luke, Simon was the first to disciple to see Jesus.

Luke 24:33
And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them, Saying, The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon.

According to the Gospels, Peter first saw Jesus later in the day, together with the others.

Matthew 28:16
Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

John 20:18
Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that he had spoken these things unto her.

19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

Paul's account of the appearances of Jesus are in conflict with the Gospels, which we are led to believe were penned by "eye witnesses".

a reply to: windword

Texta reply to: windword What scripture was Paul considering when he said "Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures", and "that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures"?

Both Peter and Saul/Paul were close friends as is inferred in Galatians 1:18.

Peter, at this time, was the third in order of the synagogue of James with James being the Nasi or president. The liturgy of this first congregation was formed by James, John and Peter who also taught and preached to this first Hebrew Synagogue of Jesus.

As Paul spent over two weeks with Peter, I assume that Paul was also taught, by the Congregates, the liturgy of James, John, and Peter. This synagogue flourished up to the 1st revolution of 68-70 CE. with James, John and Peter being the heads of the synagogue. This liturgy of this 1st synagogue is what I believe was what Paul referenced as scripture and almost all was destroyed by Rome in the final revolt of 135 CE.
My opinions of course --

I see. As you and I both know, even the gospels don't always agree on the events. So is it any wonder that the epistles and the gospels don't always agree either. Cephas of course, is Peter as noted in John chapter 1.

As to scriptures Paul was referring to, I did my best on that above without writing a book. Your questions are good as usual. The bible, and all religious texts need to be scrutinized. I just don't see a problem with Paul. Those who prefer legalism will gravitate toward the OT, and a pre-crucified Jesus. Those who understand the concept of salvation apart from the works of the law through faith/grace will gravitate toward a post-crucified/resurrected Jesus, and a "Paulian" view of scripture. Personally, I think Paul nailed it.

a reply to: windword

And as I always say, It is a matter of rightly dividing the word of Truth failure to do so will result in a mishmash of ideas and contradictions.

All inconstancies, errors, and contradictions fade away when one Studies as one is instructed to rightly divide the word of truth.

Just try obeying 2Tim 2:15 and see for yourself if what I say is true or not.

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

originally posted by: GBP/JPY
wild thread but to answer the title.....he spent three years in the desert....I suppose outside Damascus...

It is quite easy to see that he DID NOT spend three years in the desert but in Damascus. Look at what the preserved words of God says. The Holy Scriptures do not say how long he was in Arabia (the desert).

Ga 1:10 ¶ For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:
14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.

When he makes his about then after three years English would lend itself that we look at the last Noun (place) Damascus as the place he spent three years

a reply to: Klassified

Personally, I think Paul nailed it.

I think that Paul wove his own theology using parts of traditional Judaism, parts of Hellenized Judaism and parts of the Eleusinian Mysteries.

I don't think that the Old Testament prophesied the advent of Jesus of Nazareth or of Jesus Christ. But, I do agree that the New Testament was back engineered to try to do just that. That's why Jews reject Christianity and such twisting of their scriptures and theology.

a reply to: windword

I think that Paul wove his own theology using parts of traditional Judaism, parts of Hellenized Judaism and parts of the Eleusinian Mysteries.

As well as statements attributed to Jesus, and probably kabbalistic and gnostic tradition.

I don't think that the Old Testament prophesied the advent of Jesus of Nazareth or of Jesus Christ. But, I do agree that the New Testament was back engineered to try to do just that. That's why Jews reject Christianity and such twisting of their scriptures and theology.

You won't get any argument from me on the retro-rewriting. I would also include some of the old testament in that. As to the latter part, there was no better man or men to do it at the time than the probably more than one person who wrote under the name of Paul. Nevertheless, Paul is Christianity. Without him, modern Christianity would not exist as it is.

Ok....I havent seen what I would consider a satisfactory answer ( if I had asked the question )... So I am going to give one that I personally would find satisfactory.
First of all..let me say that if Paul is wrong in his assertion that the OT scriptures testify of Jesus sacrafice...then Jesus himself is wrong as well. For we find that in John 5:39 Jesus is quoted as saying...." You study the scriptures diligently...because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very scriptures that testify about me " NIV.
Now...it's easy to see that Paul and Jesus are very much in the same boat on this issue.

Now back to the question about which OT scriptures talk about Jesus sacrafice. First of all...right in Genesis 4:4 we see a sacrafice being made and being found acceptable by God. This can easily be construed to be a type of a sacrafice to come.. On top of that...the entire temple service given by God to mosed can be seen to foreshadow the sacrafice of Christ. Another scripture that can be seen to point toward this sacrafice of Christ is in Isaiah 53:5 . " He was pierced for our transgressions ..he was bruised by our iniquities and by his stripes we are healed. " not an exact quote but certainly an acceptable rendition. If I were on my laptop instead of my phone I would give you many more examples...Jesus himself quoted Zech. 13:7 and said that it applied to himself...thats found in Matt 26:31

a reply to: HarryJoy

First of all..let me say that if Paul is wrong in his assertion that the OT scriptures testify of Jesus sacrafice...then Jesus himself is wrong as well.

Well, the proof is in the pudding, and, the New Testament doesn't prove the New Testament. We must go back and check for ourselves.

First of all...right in Genesis 4:4 we see a sacrafice being made and being found acceptable by God.

Nobody is arguing that Hebrew tradition didn't employ animal sacrifice. But human sacrifice, especially the sacrifice of a messiah, was not a part of their tradition.

Another scripture that can be seen to point toward this sacrafice of Christ is in Isaiah 53:5 .

Is it? Was Jesus just a man, a servant of God who was elevated and rewarded for his suffering, sharing in the spoils of conquest? Or was he God incarnate, an equal part of the Trinitarian God head?

After all, King Saul was a messiah, as was King David and Cyrus the Great. All warriors who fought and won actual wars.

Isaiah 53:12
“Therefore I will give him a portion among the great and he will divide the spoils with the strong.”

Did Jesus have children?

Isaiah 53:10:
“he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.”

What? No 3 day miraculous resurrection?

Has this happened?

Isaiah 9
For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

7There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness From then on and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this.

Nope. Instead, this supposedly happened.

Acts 1:6
After saying this, he was taken up into a cloud while they were watching, and they could no longer see him.

At best, Isaiah's character represents the personification of Israel. At worse, the New Testament attempts, very sloppily, to create a narrative that superimposes Jesus onto Isaiah's character, putting Jewish hope of "The Messiah" to death.

a reply to: windword

It looks as if Isa 53:312 is that which Paul may have been referring too.

Isa 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 ¶ Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10 ¶ Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

It looks as if Isa 53:312 is that which Paul may have been referring too.

Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin,
he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Not even close!

You have, in other threads, accused me of cherry picking and not seeing deeply enough into scripture, yet you throw this out and expect it be taken as credible evidence? Read the rest, from beginning to end, about the character that Isaiah writes about.

What kind of sacrifice was Jesus' if he doesn't die, has children and gets a big reward?

Isaiah 53:12
“Therefore I will give him a portion among the great and he will divide the spoils with the strong.”

Jesus will be given status among the great?

a reply to: Klassified

As well as statements attributed to Jesus,

which statements would you be referring to?

Paul is Christianity. Without him, modern Christianity would not exist as it is.

Profound yet Unfortunate?

Holy Scripture is very plain about the Messiah having to be cut off. A few that come to mind right off hand, after reading the scripture in your question were these:

(Psalm 22:15) My strength has dried up like a piece of pottery; My tongue sticks to my gums; You are bringing me down to the dust of death.

(Isaiah 53:8) Because of restraint and judgment he was taken away; And who will concern himself with the details of his generation? For he was cut off from the land of the living; Because of the transgression of my people he received the stroke.

(Isaiah 53:12) For that reason I will assign him a portion among the many, And he will apportion the spoil with the mighty, Because he poured out his life even to death And was counted among the transgressors; He carried the sin of many people, And he interceded for the transgressors.

(Daniel 9:26) “And after the 62 weeks, Mes·siʹah will be cut off, with nothing for himself. “And the people of a leader who is coming will destroy the city and the holy place. And its end will be by the flood. And until the end there will be war; what is decided upon is desolations.


If you would like a further explanation, if you can't understand them on your own please let me know.

I would actually gladly uncork the good wine and bring out all the proofs if I thought you would believe, but you're clearly moving the goalposts and I'm not allowed to pour new wine into old wineskin. First you were complaining about Paul, now you're saying that Jesus is fake. You want the Deuteronomy 18:15 to outright say "The L-RD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you [whose name will be Jesus and He will be G-d incarnate and He'll be virgin-born and His disciples will be named...], from your countrymen, you shall listen to him." The OT very specifically doesn't do this because only the people that the L-rd selects are supposed to be willing to believe it [John 6:29!]. If the Father makes you willing to believe it, you will adduce all the scriptural proofs yourself, as it says "Messiah is the culmination of the Torah as far as righteousness is concerned" [Romans 10:4]. The hard proof is out there for anyone to read; the Jewish oral and received tradition about the OT (which is *required* to understand how circumcision or anything is to be interpreted) confirms Mashiach ben Yosef. You can read a book like Jesus and the Third Temple (without even having to read the source material like you would a generation ago) and only scratch the surface of the mountain of proof. My university library has a whole aisle that's entirely thousand-page commentaries on single epistles; instead you talk about "googling" things! If you spend all your days proving the Truth, He will bless your work. If you spend just enough time to disprove it to yourself and be satisfied, He will also bless your work.

a reply to: JackReyes

(Psalm 22:15) My strength has dried up like a piece of pottery; My tongue sticks to my gums; You are bringing me down to the dust of death.

That's a very human experience that every human feels from time to time in their life. Why do you think that every prayer and cry out to God in the Old Testament is JESUS suffering? It's OUR suffering!

The rest of your post is cherry picked verses, that match your narrative, while you leave out the others that prove your assertion to be false.

Isaiah 53:12
“Therefore I will give him a portion among the great and he will divide the spoils with the strong.”

Tell me, was Jesus elevated to a stature so that he could stand among the great, or is he equal to and an aspect of God Almighty himself?

You need to read the entire book of Isaiah. At least read the entire chapter containing the verses you cite as proof. Then you'll see that Isaiah's character is God's Servant, the personification of the Nation of Israel, a character that suffers from the slings and arrows of his people's projected scorn and must take on the iniquities of the imperfection of those around him.

For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

But, at the final moment, while willing to die and lay in a criminal's grave, this character is spared from death and rewarded the likes of Job, for his righteous efforts.

For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

7There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness From then on and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this.

This can't be Jesus of Nazareth, because this hasn't happened. The Jewish people are still waiting for ZION, The New Jerusalem.

Christians believe that the Kingdom of God was established, for us, in Heaven by Jesus, when Jesus died and rose. His Kingdom is not here on earth, they say. Well, that's not Isaiah's vision. (Nor was it Daniel's vision) Was Isaiah wrong?

You're going to tell me that this is 2 part deal. That Jesus is coming back to fulfill the rest of the prophecy. That's quite a stretch, 2000 years and lot of imagination.

a reply to: windword

Of course Jesus isn't Almighty God. That makes no sense. In fact, it wasn't until Jesus was raised from the dead that Jehovah kindly gave him the name that was above all other names. (Giving him his portion among the mighty -other stalwart faithful men who died true to God.)

But I'm not here to argue the wrongness of the teaching that Jesus is God. You just asked to be shown where in Hebrew Scripture it said the Messiah must die.

And you still didn't even touch on the last scripture quoted you that tells you very very directly the Messiah would be cut off.

(Daniel 9:26) . . .“And after the 62 weeks, Mes·siʹah will be cut off, with nothing for himself.. . .

This scripture referring to the arrival of, and actually the exact time the Christ (Messiah) would be cut off while on earth.


Here is a postI made a couple of days ago to help you understand Jesus is not God:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

a reply to: windword


Great question Windword. Thats Jonah 3 days in the deep and as Klass said of the other, probably to do with the sacrificial laws for lamb or scape goat.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: HarryJoy

First of all..let me say that if Paul is wrong in his assertion that the OT scriptures testify of Jesus sacrafice...then Jesus himself is wrong as well.

Well, the proof is in the pudding, and, the New Testament doesn't prove the New Testament. We must go back and check for ourselves.

First of all...right in Genesis 4:4 we see a sacrafice being made and being found acceptable by God.

Nobody is arguing that Hebrew tradition didn't employ animal sacrifice. But human sacrifice, especially the sacrifice of a messiah, was not a part of their tradition.

Their tradition and sacrifice were a tradition of type. Even they that killed Him were unaware they were fulfilling the type. They thought they were just killing something else.

As for the first part above dude is just saying that even Christ Himself stated that HE was fulfilling prophesy. Rasing the dead, healing lepers, blind ect, ect.