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Paul vs Jesus, Christianity vs Judaism

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posted on Feb, 18 2016 @ 12:46 AM
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How does history support Christianity as Bible based when it is so hostile to almost every aspect of Torah? Paul rejected Torah and established a religion based on faith claiming Jesus died to forgive sins. But Jesus died on Pesach, or pass over, not Yom Kippur, day of atonement. That the blood of Jesus forgives sin is not supported by Hebrew Bible as is the virgin birth. A son of god born of a virgin was foundational in almost every pagan religion in the Roman Empire and born on Dec 25 so this was an easy sell. Just get rid of all that pesky law Moses dreamed up while hanging out on some mountain. Where does Paul get the authority to do all this? You won't find it in scripture anywhere but don't worry, Paul declares "all scripture is God breathed" and the New testament says Paul's letters are scripture. When there is conflict the art of denial knows no boundary because the Bible is the "word of God" the Bible is "Infallible" the Bible is "Holy". Even though nobody can point out the verses that make this TRUTH clear to me. The Church has spent the last 2000 years destroying every Hebrew scroll they could find and killing or suppressing any voices that spoke out against them. What Bible verse allowed the murder on millions of America's natives so Europeans could over take their property? What Bible verse allowed negros bought at African slave markets to be abused in the new world violating Moses laws of the human rights all poor and slaves owned under the God of Israel. Paul hated Moses and like Korah I recommend all move away from his tents. Like Pharaoh who made Joseph into a false deity his brothers could no longer recognize, Paul makes rabbi Jesus into a god that no Jew could ever follow without ignoring Torah. Moses spoke of messiah as "a prophet like me" a human who bled, wept and died just like any other human.
The God of Israel has no limits, no boundaries, is not aided by human servants. Rabbi Jesus spoke a gospel of restoration, not a new religion.




posted on Feb, 18 2016 @ 01:20 AM
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a reply to: thegimprider

When Paul stated "all scripture is god breathed" he wasn't talking about the NT... it wasn't written yet...

Perhaps Jesus did speak of some "restoration" though I can't recall the passage that states that... he didn't follow the laws of Moses like most people believe... he changed and broke quite a few of his laws...

And in any case, the god of the OT was not, and is not God

Welcome to the lions den...




posted on Feb, 18 2016 @ 01:25 AM
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a reply to: Akragon

Yahweh means Behold the nail, behold the hand

www.youtube.com...

Jesus is God, you can argue till the moon turns fairy floss but Yahweh and Jesus are one.
In fact the whole Old Testament points to Jesus

Jesus and Paul both taught love, never violence.
Its a lie that some teach their is violence in the New Testament



posted on Feb, 18 2016 @ 01:26 AM
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no....and install a paragraph for fun and profit..

gotta do better than Paul vs Jesus



posted on Feb, 18 2016 @ 01:28 AM
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a reply to: Raggedyman

No Jesus is not God...

Christians believe the OT points to Jesus due to deliberate mistranslations made to suit their doctrine

And if you believe there is no violence in the OT... you either haven't actually read it... or you are completely deceived by your preacher... whoever that might be




posted on Feb, 18 2016 @ 01:34 AM
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a reply to: Akragon

No Jesus is God...

Christians believe the OT points to Jesus due to translation, so do many Messianic Jews

And if you believe there is violence in the NT... you either haven't actually read it... or you are completely deceived by your preacher... whoever that might be



posted on Feb, 18 2016 @ 01:36 AM
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a reply to: Raggedyman

heh cute...

my mistake... I seemed to read OT

one way or the other, this is inappropriate for an introduction thread...

Welcome our new member and lets take this elsewhere if you're planning to be civil




posted on Feb, 18 2016 @ 02:25 AM
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a reply to: thegimprider

Introductions forum is for introducing yourself, being welcomed, and possibly a pointer/tip or two. This probably belongs in the "Religion, Faith and Theology" or "Conspiracies in Religions" forums.

As for an introduction, they usually consist of: What are your interests? What brought you here? What do you hope to gain/share? Those kind of tidbits (You don't have to give us these answers, but it's helpful.)

I had to stop reading your OP about 1/4 of the way through the Wall of Text, so I'll leave it at: welcome to the site, and a tip:

For best results, use paragraphs. People will pay more attention to what you've written, and the conversation to follow will be more rewarding as a result.



posted on Feb, 18 2016 @ 03:06 AM
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originally posted by: thegimprider
That the blood of Jesus forgives sin is not supported by Hebrew Bible...

Source?


originally posted by: thegimprider
A son of god born of a virgin was foundational in almost every pagan religion in the Roman Empire..

Source?


originally posted by: thegimprider
The Church has spent the last 2000 years destroying every Hebrew scroll they could find and killing or suppressing any voices that spoke out against them...

Source?


originally posted by: thegimprider
Paul hated Moses...

Source?



posted on Feb, 18 2016 @ 03:01 PM
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a reply to: Akragon
And what LAWS did Jesus break? He only ignored the restrictions of law
Example...dairy and meat rule. "Do not boil a kid in it's mother's milk"...This is a very clear ban on child and mother, not meat and dairy yet centuries of that rule is a hard bond to break.

Dogma is delusion in a tuxedo!

My introduction is this, G-d told me to shred dogma, that is the job of any prophet just like Paul Simon spoke, "a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest.

Did anyone bother reading Duet 32?



posted on Feb, 18 2016 @ 03:09 PM
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a reply to: thegimprider

Oh a prophet... That should be interesting...

Perhaps you might make a thread on your status and tell the members about said proclamation?

I see you're well above the 20 post requirement, but beware... Prophets are not welcomed gracefully on this forum

just a heads up...

Looking forward to hearing what you have to say

btw I agree.... Dogma can be dangerous to buy into


edit on 18-2-2016 by Akragon because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 18 2016 @ 03:30 PM
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a reply to: thegimprider

It seems your thread has been moved so I am obliged to reply


And what LAWS did Jesus break?


Lev 20
8 And ye shall keep my statutes, and do them: I am the Lord which sanctify you.

10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

That's a good place to start




posted on Feb, 18 2016 @ 03:34 PM
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a reply to: thegimprider

Christianity is not hostile to the Torah. The Torah explains the reasons for Jesus' incarnation and sacrifice. The Torah is at the basis of Christianity.

Paul was a devout Benjamite Jew. He several times mentions that scripture (which, when he wrote it, was ONLY the Law & Prophets - i.e: the Old Testament), was valid and 'God breathed' (as you noted).

The four gospels make up 48% of the New Testament. Paul's contributions (if he was actually the author of all of them), only 20%. Those who identify Paul as having a different message than the rest of the New Testament have probably not studied the other four fifths of it.

The Hebrew Bible in the Septuagint and Dead Sea Scrolls versions (which were both from before Christ's incarnation) mention explicitly the virgin birth and the sacrifice of the Messiah for the healing and forgiveness of sins of others.

The Masoretic version of the Hebrew Bible (which was written well after Christ) translates the meanings of some words alternately, so as be less obviously pointing out Jesus as the fulfillment of the Messianic prophecies (this also makes the alternately translated sections fairly mundane and pointless, too).

Similarly, the Church has a monastic and academic thread that has chosen to preserve ancient texts, not destroy them. Even those that are contrary to its belief like Gnostic or Masoretic texts (the Masoretic text was the primary source for the Old Testament in the King James translation).

The Jewish faith is monotheistic as Christian faith is monotheistic. Christian doctrine is that the God of the Old testament, the one and the only God, is the same God that Jesus is part of. There is no 'other God', there is no pantheon of gods. The God of the Jews IS the God of the Christians.

2,000 years of criticism of Christianity from the greatest minds and academics have failed to raise any unequivocal and valid point that demolishes its basis. Perhaps you might consider things from the long perspective before your next post.

edit on 18/2/2016 by chr0naut because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 18 2016 @ 03:52 PM
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a reply to: thegimprider

I have noted that there are many who are new to ATS (since November last year) who immediately jump into posts with topics like 'Paul was a false prophet", 'YHWH wasn't the God of the New Testament' and similar.

When challenged for evidence of their assertions, these newcomers simply repeat them or change the topic and don't post any corroborative information.

Several of these newcomers have been banned for using multiple identities.

I believe there may be an agenda going on with a certain group or individual trolling ATS.



posted on Feb, 18 2016 @ 03:53 PM
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a reply to: Akragon
"words of the prophets are written on the subway walls and tenement halls" PS
Prophets are rarely accepted anywhere because the main job of prophets is to attack the dogma that is foundational to rulers and priests. When we stop focusing on burning bushes and fire falling from heaven we see the prophet is only a person declaring truth, truth that is deadly to the propaganda of control.

Any idea that produces an angry or fearful reaction is a strong symptom of delusion.



posted on Feb, 18 2016 @ 03:56 PM
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a reply to: chr0naut

Im not so sure about an agenda...

I think its more possible that since the invention of the search engine, people can actually find and compare info for themselves instead of just trusting the words of their pastor...

Its not hard to find the differences between Pauls message and Jesus'..

And its even easier to find the difference between the god of the OT, and the one Jesus spoke of...

I don't think theres an agenda though... just people using basic logic




posted on Feb, 18 2016 @ 03:58 PM
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originally posted by: thegimprider
a reply to: Akragon
"words of the prophets are written on the subway walls and tenement halls" PS
Prophets are rarely accepted anywhere because the main job of prophets is to attack the dogma that is foundational to rulers and priests. When we stop focusing on burning bushes and fire falling from heaven we see the prophet is only a person declaring truth, truth that is deadly to the propaganda of control.

Any idea that produces an angry or fearful reaction is a strong symptom of delusion.


Good point...

Funny that your last line is completely true, yet does not "echo the sounds of silence"




posted on Feb, 18 2016 @ 04:03 PM
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originally posted by: thegimprider
a reply to: Akragon
...

Any idea that produces an angry or fearful reaction is a strong symptom of delusion.


So when I put together a reply to another 'I have proof that Einstein was wrong' wannabe post, I am being delusional?




posted on Feb, 18 2016 @ 04:11 PM
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a reply to: Akragon
So according to Lev 20 Nathan is guilty for not calling for the stunning of King David?

"The Law of the Lord is perfect" Psalm 19
Torah is not Perfect even though the Jew's love to claim that. It was not completed until the return from Babylon
Many errors and contradictions exist and no claim is ever made that Moses wrote it. Hosea most likely acted as Moses' scribe and I have no doubt many scrolls were produced during 40 years of wilderness.
Did G-d care more for sheep than children? Man has sex with sheep=kill them both! Man has sex with children? Not even mentioned.

Abram, Job. and Joseph all clearly understood the law of the Lord just like the laws of physics, ignore them to your own peril. A perfect law is self enforcing, jump off a cliff and you go splat. Apply the laws of aerodynamics and you fly.

Read the Bible cover to cover, read it out loud in multiple translations, sing the Psalms and the law of the Lord becomes clear. Love your neighbor as yourself. Justice, truth, MERCY!



posted on Feb, 18 2016 @ 04:20 PM
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a reply to: chr0naut
Try reading "The Kingdom of God is Within You" by Tolstoy
This is the first major assault on Church/Government propaganda that was not suppressed. Tolstoy was excommunicated and that backfired because he was Russia's greatest author and from a wealthy family.

Michael Servitus was burned at the stake by John Calvin for proving the trinity a false doctrine, he also established cardio vascular system in science yet this discovery was not proved until 150 years later because all of his own books were burned.

Try reading your Bible and try reading a little church history before diving into theological debates.
Google each of my claims if you have any interest other than personal attack. I am not thin skinned.




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