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Why You Can't Argue With a Liberal 2.0

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posted on Feb, 14 2016 @ 02:46 PM
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originally posted by: corvuscorrax
a reply to: ExNihiloRed

You stated capitalism is the BEST economic system. I said that seems unlikely given the position we're in, unless the position we're in is the BEST we can hope for.



You seem to want an unattainable utopia. Comparatively, versus what else has been tried, it is the best. If you want to create something brand new that exceeds it, I'm happy to hear, consider, and discuss.




posted on Feb, 14 2016 @ 02:56 PM
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originally posted by: TerryMcGuire

originally posted by: ExNihiloRed

originally posted by: corvuscorrax


If the BEST economic system, hands down, period, is the one that lead this country to where we are than we truly are doomed.

Unless the based in reality part just accepts that humans are terrible creatures who can't do much of anything right and never will.


Not sure how you can say capitalism in and of itself is the sole source for all of our problems.


But he did not say capitalism is the sole source for all our problems, just that it is the economic system that has lead to where we are now. Do you see how you conflated that statement into something else?

The governing religion of capitalism is the belief in the 'Hidden Hand' a quasi spiritual belief that there is somehow built into human nature a guidance system so perfect that if left alone, free of human manipulation, it will guide us into the best of possible worlds. This I think could not be farther from the truth.

The truth is that among us humans there are those who would exploit as many people as possible. Capitalism not only does not in it's hidden hand do anything to quell this tendency but serves as the agency, the vehicle for those exploiters to do so with near impunity, and all under the rubric of "It's capitalism, our best and only hope'


If your concern is exploitation/manipulation, are you suggesting that socialist/communist (or other non-capitalist) societies have not been exploited or manipulated? You do not think it is worse?

Socialism, Corruption, Tyranny: Connecting The Dots



posted on Feb, 14 2016 @ 02:59 PM
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a reply to: ExNihiloRed

I can't believe how many ATS members are still living their lives looking in the rear view mirror...


The type of capitalism y'all are fantasing and drooling over ended 60+ years ago, for crying out loud.

Did none of you get the memo ?!




posted on Feb, 14 2016 @ 03:03 PM
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Liberals who hold no liberal values are not liberals. Conservatives who hold no conservative values are not conservative. The spirit of reasoned debate and dialectic are fundamental to both, yet reasoned debate and dialectic are often eschewed for the path of least resistance and most utility—fallacy and sophistry. These are sophists.

Notice the argument, "you do it to", which is no more than an admission that one is willing to refer to hypocrisy instead of their own principles.



posted on Feb, 14 2016 @ 03:07 PM
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originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
Liberals who hold no liberal values are not liberals. Conservatives who hold no conservative values are not conservative. The spirit of reasoned debate and dialectic are fundamental to both, yet reasoned debate and dialectic are often eschewed for the path of least resistance and most utility—fallacy and sophistry. These are sophists.

Notice the argument, "you do it to", which is no more than an admission that one is willing to refer to hypocrisy instead of their own principles.



I am not sure what intrigues me more: the substance of what you said, or that people will misunderstand your post and read it as support of their own positions (thereby confirming the substance of your post).



posted on Feb, 14 2016 @ 03:24 PM
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Its easier for me as a balanced person to argue with a conservative then a socialist. My dad is a very conservative scientist.He supported the Nixon admin, and even went to the White House during that admin for a private meeting with the vice president (Spiro ) and the Secretary of Ag. He later admitted to me that Nixon was a criminal. Ive had others make admissions about the bushes to me. I have not gotten admissions from liberals, just excuses. Its funny that you made this thread, because I have been saying the same thing for awhile. Liberalisim is a religion. Their god is the government.

There was one other thing.... Many Christians believe the world is very old, they believe dinosaurs were here long ago, and that sex is a good thing that was created by God.
So, all your ducks arent in a row, but overall, you did a pretty good job



posted on Feb, 14 2016 @ 03:30 PM
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a reply to: LesMisanthrope " They do it too" Bush did it so Obama can too. The Republicans did some evil so the Democrats can too. That is the same reply I have gotten time after time. It doesnt make sense to me. I stand in the middle, with a lean to the right (because capitalisim works) and look at the clowns to the left of me, and Jokers to the right, here I am, stuck in the middle with you....



posted on Feb, 14 2016 @ 03:33 PM
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originally posted by: visitedbythem
a reply to: LesMisanthrope " They do it too" Bush did it so Obama can too. The Republicans did some evil so the Democrats can too. That is the same reply I have gotten time after time. It doesnt make sense to me. I stand in the middle, with a lean to the right (because capitalisim works) and look at the clowns to the left of me, and Jokers to the right, here I am, stuck in the middle with you....



The true dilemma.



posted on Feb, 14 2016 @ 03:43 PM
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a reply to: ExNihiloRed

I feel neither liberalism nor conservatism should be associated with the type of sophistry we see in the media nowadays—social and mass—for the simple reason that such tactics and tastes go against these ideologies. What we are not seeing is a change in core values, enlightenment or classical ideas, but we are seeing the forgetting of them. The principles are undermined and dying, losing their moral authority, leaving the authority to the relative emotions, sensations and thoughts of those who have them.

Though "liberal 2.0" has a good bite to it, I'm not sure it is apt enough.

Good thread.



posted on Feb, 14 2016 @ 03:52 PM
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originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: ExNihiloRed

I feel neither liberalism nor conservatism should be associated with the type of sophistry we see in the media nowadays—social and mass—for the simple reason that such tactics and tastes go against these ideologies. What we are not seeing is a change in core values, enlightenment or classical ideas, but we are seeing the forgetting of them. The principles are undermined and dying, losing their moral authority, leaving the authority to the relative emotions, sensations and thoughts of those who have them.

Though "liberal 2.0" has a good bite to it, I'm not sure it is apt enough.

Good thread.


Might have something to do with our seemingly undereducated (or ill-informed), punchline culture. Although, I'm sure the qualms raised today were similarly levied against past societies.

Consider what Mark Twain famously said on the matter: "History doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme."
edit on 14-2-2016 by ExNihiloRed because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 14 2016 @ 04:37 PM
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originally posted by: visitedbythem
Liberalisim is a religion. Their god is the government.

This I believe is what makes it such an effective scam.

It would also explain the impossible task of arguing with them.

I see the liberal machine as one of many political mind control tools in the elites arsenal.


Liberalism Is a Hoax. Contemporary liberalism is a scheme for the already affluent and influential to increase their power.

www.nationalreview.com...

Arguably, the unstated goals of the liberal elite political machine are the unchristian values of tyranny and cronyism—ultimately the obliteration of anything that gets in the way of their lust for power.

The Dirty Little Secret of Liberalism

Liberals are always the first ones to deride and mock people of faith. To those on the left, all religions are equivalent to a cult. Yet, secular or not, liberals themselves are the most cult-like of all Americans. For example, modern-day progressives would never admit that Jim Jones of Jonestown fame adhered to the same socialist Utopian ideologies as their esteemed leader Barack Obama. Now, in the political realm, the past is repeating itself. Liberal devotees are exhibiting a religious zeal they themselves would normally mock in others.

Even more disturbing is that, with an eerie similarity to Jonestown’s cult-like enthusiasm, anti-religion liberals are eagerly lining up to partake of a cyanide-laced socialistic healthcare plan being fed to them by a charismatic leader named Barack Obama. And while Obama is certainly not encouraging mass suicide, in essence, the end result will be larger and more devastating.

Is a Political Jonestown Coming to America?

On the other side, liberalism is now not merely a political philosophy compatible with many kinds of religion but has itself become a religion. Although the social sciences have long defined religion in very broad terms, it is expedient for liberals that their movement not be seen as a religion, since it thereby escapes the accusations of dogmatism and intolerance that are routinely made against conventional religions.

Liberalism is a religion because, for liberals, ultimate meaning lies in a commitment both to the ever-expanding welfare state, which is the fulfillment of the ideal of justice, and to the continuing liberation of individuals from all binding authority, which is the key to personal happiness.? Liberal ideology ultimately rests on an act of faith.

It can never be discredited by historical events, because the believer simply knows it to be right. Liberal ideas are considered self-evidently true, and, in their present ascendancy, liberals prefer merely to assert those ideas rather than discuss them. The religion of liberalism makes demands on the individual that traditional religion is no longer allowed to make.

The Religion of Liberalism & the New Heretics



posted on Feb, 14 2016 @ 05:11 PM
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a reply to: ExNihiloRed



Let's grow up and use some rational thought and intellectually honesty.

You say this after claiming liberalism is a religion?



posted on Feb, 14 2016 @ 05:11 PM
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Both conservatives and liberals can become idealists, where they believe in one ideology. Conservatives will believe that everything is best served being run by the public sector so that taxes can be kept low. Liberals believe everything should be provided by the state in return for high taxes. Each side will have usually one fundamental belief "the private sector is more efficient that the public sector" or "only the public sector can avoid the rampant profiteering".

Unfortunately, Conservatives won't really understand that privatizing everything will create a monopoly causing prices to be higher than they should be, and that cut-throat competition will drive down costs, at the expense of salaries and job security. Nationalizing anything usually leads to political interference from politicians trying to win election points.

And so it goes on with just about anything.



posted on Feb, 14 2016 @ 06:17 PM
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a reply to: ExNihiloRed


If your concern is exploitation/manipulation, are you suggesting that socialist/communist (or other non-capitalist) societies have not been exploited or manipulated? You do not think it is worse?


Because I caution against unfettered capitalism is, to my mind, no reason to suggest that I am any happier with the exploits of those in power in other countries who call themselves communist. Can you see? Your reply indicates to me an either/or approach to dealing with our plight. It is this either/or fallacy that so many of us so easily fall into, both left and right.

I think that to completely hold to either side of these political issues is to doom ourselves. I get it that the present system is no longer working and that we need to re-evaluate our governance of ourselves. I just do not believe that this can be achieved by denying that there is any validity to how " the other side" understands things to be.



posted on Feb, 14 2016 @ 08:07 PM
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a reply to: ExNihiloRed

This blog is quoted from a man who believes mental illnesses are fake due to laziness;Laziness Explains 100% of Fake Mental Disorders
The captain aka Aaron Clarey is an extremely ignorant source of any kind of information, both economical and political.

Although I have to concede on his one valid point that in fact liberals are highly devoted to the ideology of liberalism and others that fall in the left wing category to the point of blind "faith" so to speak. I don't think this devotion stems from ignorance so much as it does from the idealism of political principles.

However idealism and ignorance can be found on all sides of the political spectrum, some libertarians idealize a system of free market capitalism with unbridled privatization of all institutions for the purpose of profit and some socialist Idealize a centralized system of collective control with the potential of going full totalitarianism.
Realistically all these ideologies are flawed and all that can be done is to find the best policies from all sides that work at the right times and in the right places.




edit on 14-2-2016 by NateTheAnimator because: Grammatical error



posted on Feb, 14 2016 @ 08:11 PM
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a reply to: ExNihiloRed

You can't have a rational debate with someone who's viewpoint is strictly emotional.



posted on Feb, 14 2016 @ 10:19 PM
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originally posted by: CranialSponge
a reply to: ExNihiloRed

I think you should rename your thread title to:

"Unregulated Capitalism: A Love Story"



Wall Street makes the tastiest koolaid on the block !
Yum yum yum.






Yeah, I really hate it too when the kids next door can just set up their lemonade stand and sell to anyone, or the little old lady down the street with that huge and magnificent garden decides to sell some of her overflow produce. Who really needs extra garden ripe tomatoes or zucchini and we ALL know she doesn't need any extra dollars to supplement her income. And why on earth would I want to sell of the extra things I have that are still good but I never use in a garage sale?

I mean, the government needs to move and make sure we are all doing it safely and fairly and license us and take a whopping huge cut of our profits and set a minimum wage on anyone who wants to just earn a few extra bucks babysitting for the neighbor or or washing a few cars or cutting a few lawns.

Man! You are SO right unrestrained capitalism is horrid.



posted on Feb, 14 2016 @ 10:43 PM
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a reply to: ketsuko

Yeah...


Banks gambling billions on derivatives.

Corporate bubbles bursting everywhere.

Global free trade run amok.

Banksters run amok.

Offshore tax havens.

Taxpayer bailouts.

Corporate interests paying off and controlling political governance.

Deregulation and tax cuts to multinational cartels.

Quantitative easing that makes counterfeiters look like Mother Theresa.





... But you go ahead and keep on thinking that "unregulated capitalism" is all about lemonade stands and granny's garden.




posted on Feb, 14 2016 @ 11:33 PM
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a reply to: CranialSponge

And you go on thinking that all your regulations will only impact the guys at the top. That's why cops now shut down those kids with their lemonade stand and you and I cannot risk a garage sale because we might be selling something that has materials the state doesn't like in them (CA has determined that EVERYTHING causes cancer in lab rats) and if those tomatoes go out of state ... well, that little old lady needs to be inspected to make sure there is no e. coli on her tomatoes. The nice lady next door who offers to watch your kids at the bus stop along with hers? Yeah, the state childcare providers union passed a law through congress that automatically makes her a childcare provider and unionized her. Now she owes them dues if she watches your kid and someone catches her at it. She could get in trouble if she's not licensed.

Yep, those regulations are making everyone's lives so much better and I don't notice that they've done anything to fix the problems at the top ...



posted on Feb, 14 2016 @ 11:43 PM
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a reply to: ketsuko

It's a shame that you guys aren't allowed to have garage sales and lemonade stands and selling a few tomatoes out of your garden down there.

It really is, you have my sympathies.

But if your corporate bought politicians are tightening the grip on granny's tomatoes while at the same time loosening the grip on multi-billion dollar corporations... then I guess you guys need to do something about all that crazy corruption, no ?!




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