Jesus isn't God, doesn't claim to be God and doesn't want to be worshipped.

a reply to: JackReyes

(Philippians 2:8-10) . . .and became obedient to the point of death, yes, death on a torture stake. 9 For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name, 10 so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground. . .


So Jesus became obedient. to whom did he become obedient if he was God? God is obedient to no one.

And then God kindly gave Jesus the name that is above every other name. If Jesus already had the name above all other names, why was it necessary, at Jesus resurrection from death, back to life, to be given it? And if God cannot die, how could Jesus have been resurrected back to life, from death, at all, to begin with?


Now to understand who God is, one must understand his nature. He is an invisible Spirit. The universe itself cannot contain his glory. How much more a human body?

(2 Chronicles 6:18) . . .“But will God really dwell with mankind on the earth? Look! The heavens, yes, the heaven of the heavens, cannot contain you; how much less, then, this house that I have built!


And although some here claim that Jesus was accused of blasphemy, it was not because he claimed to be God. Rather it was, as he said, he claimed to be the son of God:

(John 10:36) . . .do you say to me whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?

a reply to: JackReyes

Damn!! Evidence galore, good job. Indeed, I was hoping to save some scripture for later but you are making it difficult!!!

Jack Reyes for president 2020! Welcome to the thread. This is so much fun and important. People need to know this.

oh how many of you misunderstand who the person of God is in the flesh.

to bad for you life would be so much more joyful to know him as he is in Christ.

a reply to: JackReyes

if God would be obedient to death it is for a purpose that you know not.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
oh how many of you misunderstand who the person of God is in the flesh.

This is a point that should be touched upon as well. And all is well that you did not refute any of the scriptural evidence given you. As no one in my decades of arguing this matter, EVER HAS. No one.

But you state that Jesus was God in the flesh, and many, and some here have even used the word "God incarnate."

Their use of that word surely and clearly shows they know not the nature of God, nor the nature of Jesus, nor what his nature was while on earth.

Jesus was not incarnate anything while on earth. Scripture states that God impregnated the virgin Mary with Jesus, and he was born into the world as a human, he was raised as a human child, and became a man. And at the age of 30 baptized himself to do his Father's will and was anointed with holy spirit.

The idea that he was incarnate is not found in the Bible. He indeed was born as a human, and died as a perfect human at the hands of wicked people who murdered him.

Now the nature of God is that of Spirit. He is a Spirit. The nature of man is that of flesh. We are made of flesh and blood, out of dust.

God is not. Nor did he ever materialize in a human body as the fallen angels did before the flood. In fact, it would be impossible for God to become flesh, as no human body could contain his glory. And he is immortal, deathless. His supreme beauty and splendor, beyond all human understanding or imagining could never be contained within a body of flesh and blood.

Now Scripture shows us, those who are to partake of divine nature will have to die, and leave behind the physical nature, of dust, of flesh and blood, and we will be resurrected to heavenly life, and will be given the spiritual nature of God himself:

(1 Corinthians 15:44-49) . . .It is sown a physical body; it is raised up a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living person.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, what is spiritual is not first. What is physical is first, and afterward what is spiritual. 47 The first man is from the earth and made of dust; the second man is from heaven. 48 Like the one made of dust, so too are those made of dust; and like the heavenly one, so too are those who are heavenly. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the one made of dust, we will bear also the image of the heavenly one.


And then, at that time, while now we cannot understand what he looks like, as he is invisible and spirit, those who become immortal spirit creatures as adopted brothers of Jesus, will then stand before Jehovah's glorious throne, and we will see him eye to eye.

And now we only see an a hazy outline, then it will be face to face and we will see him as he is. And there will never be night, for his light will be our day forever more:

(1 Corinthians 13:12) . . .For now we see in hazy outline by means of a metal mirror, but then it will be face-to-face. . . .

(Revelation 22:5) . . .Also, night will be no more, and they have no need of lamplight or sunlight, for Jehovah God will shed light upon them, and they will rule as kings forever and ever.

a reply to: Rasalghul

I did a thread a while back showing how Mohammed was right about Jesus Christ and the Catholic Church was wrong about the trinity. The Hadith contradicts some of the NT but the Quran itself does not.

The OT, NT and Quran all say the same thing about Jesus Christ if you believe what Jesus clearly said about himself.

He is our Messiah, the Word of God, the Holy Spirit and God the Father's only self created son. We were all made by, through and for the Light, and the Light was made for us.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Jesus is the Spirit of Unconditional Love that Lives within all of God's Children. If you know the Spirit of Unconditional Love you have known the Light, The Light Loves us unconditionally, forgiving even those who had him crucified because they did not understand him.

Add - Jesus said I am not here to Judge you, and that his Father is the judge.

The Light within us Loves us unconditionally, but only those who follow are lead. Freewill.

originally posted by: Awen24
You've got it completely backward.

Exactly...

Which also exposes the stealth agenda behind the Gnostic cult.

The inversion of the truth...

To understand how people are being brainwashed by The Illuminati to hate God and accept the coming Anti-Christ ... You must understand gnosticism! Even the first century church had to deal with these heretics and now here in the end times with Hellywood again we have to fight these demon doctrines!

They claim that the devil is the savior and our God is a devil! They invert the truth! Often called the deeper secrets of satan this gnosticism is being preached subliminally to the masses and we must alert them to the reality of them being satanically brainwashed!

In gnosticism all this is inverted. The God of Israel is evil. The 'heavies' of scripture, people like Cain and Korah, are heroes because they rebelled against the evil God of Israel. In this new gospel, Judas is quite consistently added to the gnostic honor roll. The snake in the Garden of Eden is good: he is mankind's 'instructor'...

thriceholy.net...

Biblical truths were inverted. They taught that the creator God was evil and that hte serpent in the garden of Eden was actually good.

littlelightstudios.tv...

...the inversion of good and evil is a central Gnostic theme. Gnosticism teaches that the Christian God is a liar who must be cast down.

Transhuman and Subhuman Part XIV

Hollywood has long used Bible stories as themes in movies but are they telling the same inverted truths as the early gnostics? Are they ultimately leading you to believe that God is evil and the devil is good?

Hollywood's Gnostic Gospels

Gnosticism as a deliberately anti- Christian heresy, a diabolic inversion or mockery of Christianity...

Gnosis: An Esoteric Tradition of Mystical Visions and Unions

Luciferianism represents a radical revaluation of humanity’s ageless adversary: Satan. It is the ultimate inversion of good and evil. The formula for this inversion is reflected by the narrative paradigm of the Gnostic Hypostasis myth. Following the Biblical revisionist tradition of the Gnostic Hypostasis myth, Transhumanists invert the roles of God and Satan.

Luciferianism: The Religion of Apotheosis

For Gnostics, the God of the Old Testament is somewhat of a cosmic clown, neither ultimate nor good. In fact, many Gnostic documents invert the meaning of Old Testament stories in order to ridicule him.

www.equip.org...

The Gnostics rejected the God of the Old Testament, claiming that Jesus was a different and unrelated God from that of creation (denying the Father and Son).

The Gnostics believed that Jesus (Yeshua) was not actually human, and that he did not really die and resurrect. These Gnostics followed the “spirit of the antichrist” that John was warning about. The Gnostics did not believe we should take the Scriptures literally, but instead taught that they must be understood allegorically

unlearnthelies.com...

originally posted by: JackReyes
To be begotten means to be created. And Jesus definitely was God's only-begotten, that is, the only created, son of God. Jehovah God is not a begotten creature, as he was never created. His Son, whom he begot, as the first of all creation, was created.

Colossians explains it very plainly this way:

(Colossians 1:15) . . .He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;

So he was indeed the first creation by God. He is the only-begotten, in the fact that all other creation was done through him. Thus God only directly created the son, then thru the son he created everything else:

(Colossians 1:16) . . .because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him.


Also the scripture that was quoted stating that Jesus and his Father were one, was not referring to their being one person, rather their being in unity.

In fact Jesus after stating that he and his Father were one, then prayed to his Father Jehovah to make his followers one with him as he was with his Father. Obviously he was not referring to them becoming one with God in the sense of being God himself:

(John 17:21) so that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, so that the world may believe that you sent me.

So that oneness was the unity the son of God had with his Father, and in no way indicated his being his Father.



Now there are three main points that cannot be disputed I use with people who claim Jesus is God, if they cannot reason with them, I leave them alone as they are unreasoning. And they are the following:

1. Jehovah God cannot be tempted with anything. If you disagree with this, then what can you tempt God with? Anyway Scripture states such:

(James 1:13) When under trial, let no one say: “I am being tried by God.” For with evil things God cannot be tried, nor does he himself try anyone.

God cannot be tempted with evil.

Now we all know that the Devil lead Jesus Christ into the wilderness to be tempted. And he was tempted three times. One of these temptations was for Jesus to do an act of worship to Satan, and he would give him all of the kingdoms of the earth.

How can Jesus be tempted with something that is his? If he was God, then the temptation was not a temptation at all, but a lie. Yet he was tempted, the scripture tells us quite clearly.

Now if Jesus was tempted with evil, to do an act of worship to Satan and then become ruler of the world, and Jehovah God cannot be tempted ever, and He, that is God, can give the power of the world to whom he chooses, how could Jesus be God?

2. God cannot learn obedience. Everything must become subject to the Father of all, but God himself subjects himself to no one, nor does he learn anything from anyone.

Jesus Christ, on the other hand, learned obedience while on earth, from the things he suffered:

(Hebrews 5:8) . . .Although he was a son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered.

In fact Jesus was not wanting to die the death he was going to, as a criminal, disparaging his Father's name, and he said as much to Jehovah in prayer before he died. He asked for Jehovah to make it another way, but then said he was willing to be obedient, and let God's will be done, he was willing to subject himself to his Father's will, and learned obedience from the things he suffered:

(Matthew 26:39) . . .And going a little way forward, he fell facedown, praying: “My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass away from me. Yet, not as I will, but as you will.”


3. Jehovah God cannot die. Scripture is quite plain on this matter:

(Habakkuk 1:12) . . .Are you not from everlasting, O Jehovah? O my God, my Holy One, you do not die.. . .

Now the whole Christian faith is based on the fact and reality that Jesus died for our sins:

(1 Corinthians 15:3, 4) . . .For among the first things I handed on to you was what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures; 4 and that he was buried. . .

If you claim that Jesus is God you have to admit that he never died. Thus the entirety of your Christian faith is made null and void, and of no use.

Yet we are assured that he did in fact die. And his Father in heaven shook the earth at the time of his passing, and made the sky grow dark, and there was an earthquake and the people trembled, and even the Roman solider at his feet said that this indeed must have been the son of God.


Another point I guess should be added:

4. No one has EVER seen God at any time. Now John said this, after Jesus had died and returned to heaven. John was an apostle of Jesus and saw Jesus and was with him on many occasions. And after Jesus was raised back to heavenly spirit life, John said this about God:

(John 1:18) . . .No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him.

No man has ever ever seen God. And the only-begotten (that is the created first-born son of God - Jesus) is the one who explained Jehovah to us.

In fact when Moses asked to see Jehovah Jehovah told him quite plainly that it was impossible for any man to see His face and continue living:

(Exodus 33:20) . . .But he added: “You cannot see my face, for no man can see me and live.”

If Jesus was God, then God is a liar. For God said that no man could see his face and live. And yet many people saw Jesus. And John himself, who saw Jesus said that no one had ever seen God.

Jesus said that Jehovah was his God. If he was God why would he worship himself and call himself his own Go?

(John 20:17) . . .But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.’”


In fact, why would Jesus need to pray? Would he not be just talking to himself, if he was God?

Imagine when Jesus was baptized, the holy spirit descended like a dove from heaven and entered into him, anointing him as the Christ, and Jehovah God spoke from the heaven saying that Jesus was the approved son of God:

(Matthew 3:16, 17) . . .the heavens were opened up, and he saw God’s spirit descending like a dove and coming upon him. 17 Look! Also, a voice from the heavens said: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.”

So where was God at that time? Was he in Jesus (although no man could see God and live) or was he God's holy spirit descending upon Jesus, or was he in heaven pretending to be on earth, yet declaring that Jesus was his son, while Jesus was in fact himself?

The notion that Jesus is God is quite ridiculous and never taught in the Bible.

Jesus quite literally said that Jehovah God was greater than himself. Now if Jesus was God, how could anyone be greater than him? How could he be greater than himself?

(John 14:28) . . .you would rejoice that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I am.

Excellent post. Only the indoctrinated fail to have eyes to see what is plainly written.

By that same standard is there anywhere when Jesus said "I am not God do not worship me. And before you bring up the quote of him saying "why call me good? No one is good except God alone."

First that does not match the 'standard' of demand and he does call himself the 'good' shepherd. In John 10:11

originally posted by: Murgatroid

originally posted by: Awen24
You've got it completely backward.

Exactly...

Which also exposes the stealth agenda behind the Gnostic cult.

The inversion of the truth...

To understand how people are being brainwashed by The Illuminati to hate God and accept the coming Anti-Christ ... You must understand gnosticism! Even the first century church had to deal with these heretics and now here in the end times with Hellywood again we have to fight these demon doctrines!

They claim that the devil is the savior and our God is a devil! They invert the truth! Often called the deeper secrets of satan this gnosticism is being preached subliminally to the masses and we must alert them to the reality of them being satanically brainwashed!

In gnosticism all this is inverted. The God of Israel is evil. The 'heavies' of scripture, people like Cain and Korah, are heroes because they rebelled against the evil God of Israel. In this new gospel, Judas is quite consistently added to the gnostic honor roll. The snake in the Garden of Eden is good: he is mankind's 'instructor'...

thriceholy.net...

Biblical truths were inverted. They taught that the creator God was evil and that hte serpent in the garden of Eden was actually good.

littlelightstudios.tv...

...the inversion of good and evil is a central Gnostic theme. Gnosticism teaches that the Christian God is a liar who must be cast down.

Transhuman and Subhuman Part XIV

Hollywood has long used Bible stories as themes in movies but are they telling the same inverted truths as the early gnostics? Are they ultimately leading you to believe that God is evil and the devil is good?

Hollywood's Gnostic Gospels

Gnosticism as a deliberately anti- Christian heresy, a diabolic inversion or mockery of Christianity...

Gnosis: An Esoteric Tradition of Mystical Visions and Unions

Luciferianism represents a radical revaluation of humanity’s ageless adversary: Satan. It is the ultimate inversion of good and evil. The formula for this inversion is reflected by the narrative paradigm of the Gnostic Hypostasis myth. Following the Biblical revisionist tradition of the Gnostic Hypostasis myth, Transhumanists invert the roles of God and Satan.

Luciferianism: The Religion of Apotheosis

For Gnostics, the God of the Old Testament is somewhat of a cosmic clown, neither ultimate nor good. In fact, many Gnostic documents invert the meaning of Old Testament stories in order to ridicule him.

www.equip.org...

The Gnostics rejected the God of the Old Testament, claiming that Jesus was a different and unrelated God from that of creation (denying the Father and Son).

The Gnostics believed that Jesus (Yeshua) was not actually human, and that he did not really die and resurrect. These Gnostics followed the “spirit of the antichrist” that John was warning about. The Gnostics did not believe we should take the Scriptures literally, but instead taught that they must be understood allegorically

unlearnthelies.com...

You have it backwards, this isnt about Gnosticism. It's about the bible.

originally posted by: Murgatroid

originally posted by: Awen24
You've got it completely backward.

Exactly...

Which also exposes the stealth agenda behind the Gnostic cult.

The inversion of the truth...

To understand how people are being brainwashed by The Illuminati to hate God and accept the coming Anti-Christ ... You must understand gnosticism! Even the first century church had to deal with these heretics and now here in the end times with Hellywood again we have to fight these demon doctrines!

They claim that the devil is the savior and our God is a devil! They invert the truth! Often called the deeper secrets of satan this gnosticism is being preached subliminally to the masses and we must alert them to the reality of them being satanically brainwashed!

In gnosticism all this is inverted. The God of Israel is evil. The 'heavies' of scripture, people like Cain and Korah, are heroes because they rebelled against the evil God of Israel. In this new gospel, Judas is quite consistently added to the gnostic honor roll. The snake in the Garden of Eden is good: he is mankind's 'instructor'...

thriceholy.net...

Biblical truths were inverted. They taught that the creator God was evil and that hte serpent in the garden of Eden was actually good.

littlelightstudios.tv...

...the inversion of good and evil is a central Gnostic theme. Gnosticism teaches that the Christian God is a liar who must be cast down.

Transhuman and Subhuman Part XIV

Hollywood has long used Bible stories as themes in movies but are they telling the same inverted truths as the early gnostics? Are they ultimately leading you to believe that God is evil and the devil is good?

Hollywood's Gnostic Gospels

Gnosticism as a deliberately anti- Christian heresy, a diabolic inversion or mockery of Christianity...

Gnosis: An Esoteric Tradition of Mystical Visions and Unions

Luciferianism represents a radical revaluation of humanity’s ageless adversary: Satan. It is the ultimate inversion of good and evil. The formula for this inversion is reflected by the narrative paradigm of the Gnostic Hypostasis myth. Following the Biblical revisionist tradition of the Gnostic Hypostasis myth, Transhumanists invert the roles of God and Satan.

Luciferianism: The Religion of Apotheosis

For Gnostics, the God of the Old Testament is somewhat of a cosmic clown, neither ultimate nor good. In fact, many Gnostic documents invert the meaning of Old Testament stories in order to ridicule him.

www.equip.org...

The Gnostics rejected the God of the Old Testament, claiming that Jesus was a different and unrelated God from that of creation (denying the Father and Son).

The Gnostics believed that Jesus (Yeshua) was not actually human, and that he did not really die and resurrect. These Gnostics followed the “spirit of the antichrist” that John was warning about. The Gnostics did not believe we should take the Scriptures literally, but instead taught that they must be understood allegorically

unlearnthelies.com...

They sound smart, whats the name of this Gnostic cult?

originally posted by: infolurker
a reply to: intrptr

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

"And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."

I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am, you shall die in your sins."

"Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM.'"

"I and the Father are one."

"For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form."

"Jesus heard that they had put him out; and finding him, He said, "Do you believe in the Son of Man?" 36 He answered and said, "And who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?" 37 Jesus said to him, "You have both seen Him, and He is the one who is talking with you." 38 And he said, "Lord, I believe." And he worshiped Him."

Lets also not forget:

Matthew 28:18 - When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful. And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

a reply to: windword

Genesis 3:15 - The LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, Cursed are you more than all cattle, And more than every beast of the field; On your belly you will go, And dust you will eat All the days of your life; 15And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel."

a reply to: DeathSlayer

When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful. And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

Yet one can't help but wonder...

WHO gave him said power over heaven and earth?

originally posted by: DeathSlayer

originally posted by: infolurker
a reply to: intrptr

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

"And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."

I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am, you shall die in your sins."

"Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM.'"

"I and the Father are one."

"For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form."

"Jesus heard that they had put him out; and finding him, He said, "Do you believe in the Son of Man?" 36 He answered and said, "And who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?" 37 Jesus said to him, "You have both seen Him, and He is the one who is talking with you." 38 And he said, "Lord, I believe." And he worshiped Him."

Lets also not forget:

Matthew 28:18 - When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful. And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

None of the above show Jesus being equal to, nevermind being, God. No claims to God status either. Or being desirous of worship. At all. Nothing you mentioned in your comments does either.

Because Jesus was not God.

Unless you are willing to accept being a polytheist, the trinity is ridiculous. It rests upon the foundation of 3 EQUAL Gods, anything less is polytheism.

But Jesus is not at all shy about being inferior to God, so you can not claim they are equal. They don't have equal powers. Jesus is not omnipotent (his power comes from the Father), omniscient (only the Father knows when the second coming will be), and therefore not equal.

So IF he was God or a god he is still inferior to God. From this point on belief that Jesus was God or a god requires acknowledging his admitted inferiority and now the trinity becomes a pagan hierachy of three Gods.

Christians don't realize it, but their beliefs are polytheistic or at least tri-theistic.®

a reply to: DeathSlayer

He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel."

And? When did that ever happen?

a reply to: JackReyes

I know none of you accept scripture as any proof and other will claim that the scriptures are false or added or in error, so this may be a moot point. Let's say these scriptures are the preserved word of God for us today.

What do these scriptures teach us about Jesus Christ?

The scriptures teach us to compare spiritual things with spiritual so here we compare scripture which is spiritual things with scripture just as the Holy Ghost does in 1Cor 2:13.

John 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
1John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
1Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: JackReyes

I know none of you accept scripture as any proof and other will claim that the scriptures .

False, first we are arguing from the perspective that it's true, and we are using scripture to prove what the intro says is true.

You made a false claim, your word is junk to me.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: JackReyes

I know none of you accept scripture as any proof and other will claim that the scriptures are false or added or in error, so this may be a moot point.

No one made those claims and that you say this without it being true makes you a L......you know what you really are.

You are always insulting people. That's not good. You aren't a prophet and all you do is bother people who don't agree with you.

Lolol