Theory that may help explain the Problem Of Evil

a reply to: Dark Ghost

The standard answer to the problem of evil is, firstly, that evil is necessary for development. Consider the evolutionary concept of natural selection, based upon "survival of the fittest". The flip side of that is the non-survival of the organisms who are not at the pinnacle of 'fitness', a biological evil. Without this destructive engine of biological evil, there would be no change in population traits and therefore no evolution.

So, for the universe to develop, there must be evil. For us to make choices, the options that we may choose from; have to exist.

But philosophy and science can only go so far in the solution to the problem of evil. At this stage, it would appear that evil is inevitable and permanent. Our situation from the point of these intellectual disciplines is hopeless. The removal of evil also removes free will, development and change.

Religion then offers us an ultimate solution to evil as God has revealed that evil will be eradicated at some future point but that personality will be retained. As a step towards this future we have the example of Jesus Christ's power of atonement. His ability to absolve ourselves of past evils grants us the first step in beginning to extricate ourselves from the web of evil. The Holy Spirit may then guide us in preventing our contribution to evil and our path to that perfected state.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Dark Ghost

I'm pretty sure that moral relativism is true and there is no such thing as good and evil.

Then why be moral at all? Surely amorality is a survival trait.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Dark Ghost

But that's the thing. Nothing I said disproves a god could exist. A deity could well exist; it just doesn't have much concern for things like good and evil since it knows the actions a human performs while on earth regardless of their scope are rather insignificant in the grand scheme of things.

Or because such a God knows that he will "right all wrongs", nullifying all evil that has occurred.

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Dark Ghost

I'm pretty sure that moral relativism is true and there is no such thing as good and evil.

Then why be moral at all? Surely amorality is a survival trait.

Good question. I believe that morality arose from our pack like mentality since apes and their kin are social animals and tend to group up in social hierarchies. As we became more intelligent, we put conditions on things that made us identifiable among our pack. This was early morality. Slowly it arose to be a concept to define social cohesion, which is more or less its function in this day and time.

Personally, I prefer social cohesion versus anarchy so I'm game for adopting relativistic morals to propagate better social cohesion. This being said, this also means that I have to be willing to accept morals from other groups of humans that make better sense than the ones I'm currently using.

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Dark Ghost

But that's the thing. Nothing I said disproves a god could exist. A deity could well exist; it just doesn't have much concern for things like good and evil since it knows the actions a human performs while on earth regardless of their scope are rather insignificant in the grand scheme of things.

Or because such a God knows that he will "right all wrongs", nullifying all evil that has occurred.

But in that case, you are arguing for a case where only good can exist. Since all evil is nullified, then how can we say anything is truly evil? Seems to be just a roundabout way of saying that everything is just shades of grey.

a reply to: Dark Ghost

What if our "God" is not the "God" of the universe and everything else

but our "God" was created with those sacrifices you were talking about

and we the humans are talking about "God" if he/she/it has a face

but God is just some kind of a energy hehe

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Dark Ghost

But that's the thing. Nothing I said disproves a god could exist. A deity could well exist; it just doesn't have much concern for things like good and evil since it knows the actions a human performs while on earth regardless of their scope are rather insignificant in the grand scheme of things.

Or because such a God knows that he will "right all wrongs", nullifying all evil that has occurred.

But in that case, you are arguing for a case where only good can exist. Since all evil is nullified, then how can we say anything is truly evil? Seems to be just a roundabout way of saying that everything is just shades of grey.

I don't think one can say that only good can exist by taking the long view and averaging things out.

If I have my feet in ice-water and someone is holding my hands over a flame, I am not, on average, comfortable.

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Dark Ghost

But that's the thing. Nothing I said disproves a god could exist. A deity could well exist; it just doesn't have much concern for things like good and evil since it knows the actions a human performs while on earth regardless of their scope are rather insignificant in the grand scheme of things.

Or because such a God knows that he will "right all wrongs", nullifying all evil that has occurred.

And in the meantime, just suck it up?......never mind those living a life of constant suffering, rape, torture and pain?

It's all worth it because the god will maybe one day punish the perpetrators (or forgive them) and everyone will live in heaven (as long as you fulfill it's list of conditions...)?



How is this moral?

a reply to: chr0naut

So you are saying that evil exists as microaggressions that get leveled out to good in the long run? I'm not sure I'm understanding your point clearly here.

Can you describe to me evil on a galactic or universal scale? How would humans perpetuate it?

wait.. why is there a notion that its gods job to prevent pain and suffering. heres a theory. the universe actually has a purpose. and that purpose isnt for everyone to live in a perfect place. its to learn.

a reply to: AVoiceOfReason

If I had the power to prevent pain and suffering I would, that's the difference between me and your god and why I'm more moral than your god.

Whatever it's 'teaching' isn't worth the death and suffering of children or anyone else.

originally posted by: Prezbo369

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Dark Ghost

But that's the thing. Nothing I said disproves a god could exist. A deity could well exist; it just doesn't have much concern for things like good and evil since it knows the actions a human performs while on earth regardless of their scope are rather insignificant in the grand scheme of things.

Or because such a God knows that he will "right all wrongs", nullifying all evil that has occurred.

And in the meantime, just suck it up?......never mind those living a life of constant suffering, rape, torture and pain?

It's all worth it because the god will maybe one day punish the perpetrators (or forgive them) and everyone will live in heaven (as long as you fulfill it's list of conditions...)?

How is this moral?

[start sarcasm]

Surely pain is just a signal in a particular set of neurons, as is any sort of mental anguish. Isn't that the most accurate description under scientific empiricism?

Isn't pain necessary to motivate us away from self harming, where is the moral evil in that?

Isn't rape just the result of an uninhibited procreational urge?

Isn't torture the action of one with mental illness? They need rehabilitation, not moral condemnation.

Surely you see the tremendous advantages of moral relativism and an empirical view?

[end sarcasm]

You seem to allocate a lot of blame to an entity that you deny exists.

originally posted by: AVoiceOfReason
wait.. why is there a notion that its gods job to prevent pain and suffering. heres a theory. the universe actually has a purpose. and that purpose isnt for everyone to live in a perfect place. its to learn.

What does a 1 year old learn after being blown up and killed in an indiscriminate bombing?

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: chr0naut

So you are saying that evil exists as microaggressions that get leveled out to good in the long run? I'm not sure I'm understanding your point clearly here.

Can you describe to me evil on a galactic or universal scale? How would humans perpetuate it?

God will specifically negate each and every instance of evil. This is different than having a set of accrued positive and negative balances. It is individual and specific.

Perhaps an allegory could demonstrate: When I was a child, I touched a hot iron and it hurt. My mother, immediately picked me up and ran cold water over my fingers (which weren't actually burnt) and showed her sympathy for me. It was an expression of love as much as a life lesson. I feel that the descriptions given of God "comforting" those who are hurting and "wiping away all tears, and there will be no more dying or pain" as an expression of love. It isn't just some sort of cosmic tally.

I have also used the term "evil" in a broader sense than just malign moral intent. Evil could be a circumstance, action or outcome (intended or not) that causes harm.

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: chr0naut

So you are saying that evil exists as microaggressions that get leveled out to good in the long run? I'm not sure I'm understanding your point clearly here.

Can you describe to me evil on a galactic or universal scale? How would humans perpetuate it?

God will specifically negate each and every instance of evil. This is different than having a set of accrued positive and negative balances. It is individual and specific.

How does that work? He certainly isn't negating the repercussions of any evil performed in this world, because many people are still suffering from the "evils" of others in the world. So what exactly is negated here?

Perhaps an allegory could demonstrate: When I was a child, I touched a hot iron and it hurt. My mother, immediately picked me up and ran cold water over my fingers (which weren't actually burnt) and showed her sympathy for me. It was an expression of love as much as a life lesson. I feel that the descriptions given of God "comforting" those who are hurting and "wiping away all tears, and there will be no more dying or pain" as an expression of love. It isn't just some sort of cosmic tally.

Ok. I just don't see how that relates to evil.

I have also used the term "evil" in a broader sense than just malign moral intent. Evil could be a circumstance, action or outcome (intended or not) that causes harm.

You didn't answer my questions about galactic and universal evil.

How about this? Evil is just a label humans use to describe things that they don't like and wish weren't so in the world.

originally posted by: chr0naut
You seem to allocate a lot of blame to an entity that you deny exists.

Ahh yeah, the response from a theist that has nowhere else to go.

Some spectacularly pathetic apologetics there bud, sarcastic or not...

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: chr0naut

So you are saying that evil exists as microaggressions that get leveled out to good in the long run? I'm not sure I'm understanding your point clearly here.

Can you describe to me evil on a galactic or universal scale? How would humans perpetuate it?

God will specifically negate each and every instance of evil. This is different than having a set of accrued positive and negative balances. It is individual and specific.

How does that work? He certainly isn't negating the repercussions of any evil performed in this world, because many people are still suffering from the "evils" of others in the world. So what exactly is negated here?

I have no idea about how god would negate evil, but I do know that it has been promised.

Perhaps an allegory could demonstrate: When I was a child, I touched a hot iron and it hurt. My mother, immediately picked me up and ran cold water over my fingers (which weren't actually burnt) and showed her sympathy for me. It was an expression of love as much as a life lesson. I feel that the descriptions given of God "comforting" those who are hurting and "wiping away all tears, and there will be no more dying or pain" as an expression of love. It isn't just some sort of cosmic tally.

Ok. I just don't see how that relates to evil.

I have also used the term "evil" in a broader sense than just malign moral intent. Evil could be a circumstance, action or outcome (intended or not) that causes harm.

You didn't answer my questions about galactic and universal evil.

How about this? Evil is just a label humans use to describe things that they don't like and wish weren't so in the world.

I believe you seem to be defining evil as an object. Evil does not have a weight, color, shape, sound or similar physical attributes. While it IS existent, it isn't a 'thing' in that sense, nor is it a person.

My definition of evil is quite simple and fits with your last statement: Something that has the attribute of evil, does us harm.

We could say HIV has the attribute of an evil. Warfare has the attribute of an evil. The child who smashes another child's toy has an attribute of evil. The absconding father of a child has an attribute of evil. A wildfire that demolishes homes has an attribute of an evil.

So, yes, evil could be a label humans use to describe things that they don't like and wish weren't so in the world.

originally posted by: Prezbo369

originally posted by: chr0naut
You seem to allocate a lot of blame to an entity that you deny exists.

Ahh yeah, the response from a theist that has nowhere else to go.

Some spectacularly pathetic apologetics there bud, sarcastic or not...

Guilty as charged.

originally posted by: chr0naut
I have no idea about how god would negate evil, but I do know that it has been promised.

Come on chr0naut, you should know me by now. I don't accept vague promises like this as being true. I want something that can be shown and demonstrated. I mean, if I cannot see the results, how do I know that my faith is being rewarded?

I believe you seem to be defining evil as an object. Evil does not have a weight, color, shape, sound or similar physical attributes. While it IS existent, it isn't a 'thing' in that sense, nor is it a person.

My definition of evil is quite simple and fits with your last statement: Something that has the attribute of evil, does us harm.

We could say HIV has the attribute of an evil. Warfare has the attribute of an evil. The child who smashes another child's toy has an attribute of evil. The absconding father of a child has an attribute of evil. A wildfire that demolishes homes has an attribute of an evil.

So, yes, evil could be a label humans use to describe things that they don't like and wish weren't so in the world.

Actually I'm defining it as an adjective. And I don't see how those things are evil. Unfortunate? Yes. Evil. Not sure. I mean some of those circumstances are just natural events or things that are completely out of the hands of one person. By your same reasoning, an asteroid crashing into earth would be a characteristic of evil, but in reality it is just a rock orbiting around the sun and its orbit ended up aligning with Earth's orbit and they collided. But orbits being what they are, that collision could have been predicted millions of years ago though.

You still haven't answered my question. Are you avoiding it because evil can only exist on earth or because you don't know?

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: chr0naut
I have no idea about how god would negate evil, but I do know that it has been promised.

Come on chr0naut, you should know me by now. I don't accept vague promises like this as being true. I want something that can be shown and demonstrated. I mean, if I cannot see the results, how do I know that my faith is being rewarded?

I believe you seem to be defining evil as an object. Evil does not have a weight, color, shape, sound or similar physical attributes. While it IS existent, it isn't a 'thing' in that sense, nor is it a person.

My definition of evil is quite simple and fits with your last statement: Something that has the attribute of evil, does us harm.

We could say HIV has the attribute of an evil. Warfare has the attribute of an evil. The child who smashes another child's toy has an attribute of evil. The absconding father of a child has an attribute of evil. A wildfire that demolishes homes has an attribute of an evil.

So, yes, evil could be a label humans use to describe things that they don't like and wish weren't so in the world.

Actually I'm defining it as an adjective. And I don't see how those things are evil. Unfortunate? Yes. Evil. Not sure. I mean some of those circumstances are just natural events or things that are completely out of the hands of one person. By your same reasoning, an asteroid crashing into earth would be a characteristic of evil, but in reality it is just a rock orbiting around the sun and its orbit ended up aligning with Earth's orbit and they collided. But orbits being what they are, that collision could have been predicted millions of years ago though.

You still haven't answered my question. Are you avoiding it because evil can only exist on earth or because you don't know?

Think of the "Evil has befallen us, and the whole village dying of the plague!" kind of definition for the word. Like I said, I was speaking of "evil" in greater context than it being something 'morally bad', which implies intent.

But Satan's fall (the initial evil) was not on Earth as far as I know. So I don't think it is a purely terrestrial thing.

Perhaps you could re-state your question because I thought I had answered?