Donald Trump: I'd bring back 'a hell of a lot worse than waterboarding'

originally posted by: Jamesjamo
Waterboard then shoot.

Zero sleep lost.

Would you maintain that same mindset if the "terrorist" turns out to be somebody you care about?

originally posted by: Dark Ghost

originally posted by: Jamesjamo
Waterboard then shoot.

Zero sleep lost.

Would you maintain that same mindset if the "terrorist" turns out to be somebody you care about?

Nope.

originally posted by: Jamesjamo
Waterboard then shoot.

Zero sleep lost.

And what if by mistake you were arrested as a suspect by mistake. Water boarded until you confessed something you didn’t do then shoot?

Due process is there their for a reason!

Not to protect the guilty but to protect us innocents from government incompetence and tyranny.

Its called a slippery slope! One minute the government are torturing "only" terrorist suspects the next they are water boarded and detaining without trial US citizens for alleged domestic crimes.

a reply to: crazyewok

The government isn't some invisible shadow entity. It's my family and friends and their coworkers. If they want to water board some Muslims no shats given.

a reply to: Jamesjamo

I've explained multiple times that torture is useless at best and actively harmful at worst when it comes to gathering information. The only remaining conclusion is that you advocate it for the sake of your own pleasure, whether it is based in sadism or a desire for vengeance. Hold that view if you must, but expect to be shunned by the majority of civilized society if you are open about it.

ya know what?

Let them think we out crazy them.

No sense telling everyone what we won't do. That's pretty stupid.

Hear that Obama?

originally posted by: Eilasvaleleyn
a reply to: Jamesjamo

I've explained multiple times that torture is useless at best and actively harmful at worst when it comes to gathering information. The only remaining conclusion is that you advocate it for the sake of your own pleasure, whether it is based in sadism or a desire for vengeance. Hold that view if you must, but expect to be shunned by the majority of civilized society if you are open about it.

Or it might just be that some people don't believe your explanation... just a thought?
You may have not factored that scenario into the determination of your 'only remaining conclusion'

originally posted by: Swills
a reply to: UKTruth

How many times must it be said, torture doesn't work. There are much better ways of getting info without inflicting any pain.

You can say it as much as you like, but it doesn't make it so.
I reject your argument that torture can never work to extract information.

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: Swills
a reply to: UKTruth

How many times must it be said, torture doesn't work. There are much better ways of getting info without inflicting any pain.

You can say it as much as you like, but it doesn't make it so.
I reject your argument that torture can never work to extract information.

Prove that it works?

The UK and USA don’t currently use it and our streets are not a blood bath of Muslim terrorist attacks are they? So our current tactics are working.
So if torture does work can you prove it will work enough to make sacrificing or morals, social values and freedom worthwhile?


I don’t at the end of the day care about the welfare of known convicted terrorists.
But the government is unreliable and mistakes happen and innocent people get picked up by mistake.
That is were Due process and rules governing treatment of prisoners come in.
What I do care about is the due process and civil liberties are upheld consistently as they protect the innocent from government abuse.

Once you give government the power, it’s very hard to take that power back. And when you give the government an inch they normally take a mile.

originally posted by: crazyewok

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: Swills
a reply to: UKTruth

How many times must it be said, torture doesn't work. There are much better ways of getting info without inflicting any pain.

You can say it as much as you like, but it doesn't make it so.
I reject your argument that torture can never work to extract information.

Prove that it works?

The UK and USA don’t currently use it and our streets are not a blood bath of Muslim terrorist attacks are they? So our current tactics are working.
So if torture does work can you prove it will work enough to make sacrificing or morals, social values and freedom worthwhile?


I don’t at the end of the day care about the welfare of known convicted terrorists.
But the government is unreliable and mistakes happen and innocent people get picked up by mistake.
That is were Due process and rules governing treatment of prisoners come in.
What I do care about is the due process and civil liberties are upheld consistently as they protect the innocent from government abuse.

Once you give government the power, it’s very hard to take that power back. And when you give the government an inch they normally take a mile.

The claim made was that it does not work - ever. I reject that claim. The burden of proof is on the person making the claim, not on the person rejecting the claim.

I have read through several documents citing military advsors saying it does not work, but not that it never works. There are other aspects to it in terms of deterrent also that are not really explored in the papers or documents i have read regarding the eficacy of extracting information through torture. That is why I reject the black and white claim of 'works/doesn't work'.

My position is that there should be no limits (even execution) when it is certain that the person being interrogated is guilty of mass murder through terrorist acts. Where there is not certainty, I would not support any damaging physical or mental techniques being used.

a reply to: UKTruth

There's no such thing as an absolute, there is no certain certainty. Torture is still wrong, torture is still a human rights violation, and torture still doesn't work. The extremely small minority of cases where it may actually be useful are more than offset by the issues it creates.

originally posted by: Eilasvaleleyn
a reply to: UKTruth

There's no such thing as an absolute, there is no certain certainty. Torture is still wrong, torture is still a human rights violation, and torture still doesn't work. The extremely small minority of cases where it may actually be useful are more than offset by the issues it creates.

Certain is good enough, i.e. proven - absolute certainty is probably not acheivable.

I have already rejected your view that torture doesn't work, so no need to repeat it. (Note: before getting upset with that statement, know that I am not saying you are wrong, just that I dont agree).

Do you have conclusive information on the offset of the value of information gleaned vs the issues created?

By the way, human rights violations are a part of life (and necessary) because you can never elimiate them completely. All we can do is our best to minimise them. Innocent people get locked up for life and die in jail. Their freedoms taken away through genuine mistakes in our legal systems. Would you suggest we have no prisons?

originally posted by: Eilasvaleleyn
a reply to: UKTruth

There's no such thing as an absolute, there is no certain certainty. Torture is still wrong, torture is still a human rights violation, and torture still doesn't work. The extremely small minority of cases where it may actually be useful are more than offset by the issues it creates.

I can agree the problem's it creates can make it not worth using. But reality is if torture didn't work it wouldn't have been practiced since the dawn of time. Ask John McCain if it works he is criticized for the information he gave away. I don't blame him myself he was tortured and still wears the scars from it. But it worked didn't it.

a reply to: UKTruth

You're basically saying your ignore facts and instead embrace assumptions. That's what's called ignorance.

a reply to: UKTruth

You know who proved it? The CIA, from their endless torture victims. That said, torture has been around for centuries and you only have to look up its history to find the facts that it does not work.

Stop being so ignorant. Sounds to me you just want people tortured and don't care whether it yields intelligence.

originally posted by: burgerbuddy
ya know what?

Let them think we out crazy them.

No sense telling everyone what we won't do. That's pretty stupid.

Hear that Obama?

Jihadists are totally brainwashed.

Torture only works on sane rational people.

originally posted by: Bedlam

originally posted by: WeAreAWAKE
a reply to: Swills

Serious and short question. Is waterboarding painful or does it just scare you (while you choke)? Because if it doesn't cause pain, as far as I can tell it isn't torture. All the definitions of torture include causing pain.

Having done SERE-C, I can tell you that waterboarding is everything you'd describe as torture and a bit more.

It's very panic inducing. Which is what they're after.

There are other parts that I did worse on, some better. It all sucks.

Sorry, but doesn't answer my question. Is waterboarding painful? Anyone can call anything torture. It is torture to get up early sometimes, it is torture to go to work, etc. That doesn't actually make them torture. So is it painful because unless I'm missing something...pain is required for something to be torture.

originally posted by: crazyewok

originally posted by: Freenrgy2
a reply to: Krazysh0t

No, and these techniques just might prevent them from happening.

Might, might, might.

Sacrifice our morals on a might?

I tell you what diffinate will happen if we torture and thats we become as bad as they are.

originally posted by: Freenrgy2 But, if folks like you have your way, we just might have another mass attack...something far worse than anything we've ever experienced.

Must be hard work being a coward living in fear of what might happen.

originally posted by: Freenrgy2It would do me no good to say "I told you so," but you'll have to live with the thought that maybe we should have done something different.

Will live with myself just fine thank you.

Those people died because we are free and not like the terrorists.

originally posted by: Freenrgy2As for me, if enhanced interrogation saves lives, then keep doing it.

Until your picked up by accident or mistake and denied due process and tortured..........


But cluck away cluck cluck.

Morals are overrated. I personally believe there are criminal acts bad enough where a person is no longer part of humanity. Or dare I say...no longer human. A child rapist, a mass murderer, a terrorist, etc. Stealing doesn't fall into that category nor does illegal drug use. But when a person has not only no morals or values and decides that murder, rape, etc. is fun...that person is not human and therefore...doesn't deserve any humanity. At that point, I don't care what happens to them and if torture is applied...so be it. It isn't like we are harming another person or animal...this creature is undeserving of any concern or protection. They should simply be erased from life.

Now...that may be distasteful to some. That may sound so cruel and maybe it is. But we are dealing with individuals that slice off people's heads claiming that the same God that made man wishes it. They are the radical religious eager to rape and kill women and children, cut them up into pieces and put them on display. Do you really believe THAT creature deserves to be given the same rights and protection as the rest of us? Not in my opinion.

Waterboarding? Doesn't really compare to the level of their evil...does it?

a reply to: WeAreAWAKE

Not so much. Torture can be anything that inflicts intense stress to elicit information.

If I held your face in the toilet until you lost consciousness, then slap you awake only to do it again, repeatedly, that might not be as painful as drilling a hole in your patella but it's still torture.

A lot of questionably legal interrogation techniques are like this. Putting an unloaded pistol to your head and pulling the trigger when I've led you to believe it might go off is one. The helicopter treatment is another. Different from having a soldering iron shoved up your butt but nonetheless effective. They also have the benefit of not leaving obvious marks.

As a question to you, if three or four guys hold you down and hold your nose and mouth shut, in about three minutes, will you call that torture? Even if they're really gentle as they suffocate you?

originally posted by: WeAreAWAKE

originally posted by: crazyewok

originally posted by: Freenrgy2
a reply to: Krazysh0t

No, and these techniques just might prevent them from happening.

Might, might, might.

Sacrifice our morals on a might?

I tell you what diffinate will happen if we torture and thats we become as bad as they are.

originally posted by: Freenrgy2 But, if folks like you have your way, we just might have another mass attack...something far worse than anything we've ever experienced.

Must be hard work being a coward living in fear of what might happen.

originally posted by: Freenrgy2It would do me no good to say "I told you so," but you'll have to live with the thought that maybe we should have done something different.

Will live with myself just fine thank you.

Those people died because we are free and not like the terrorists.

originally posted by: Freenrgy2As for me, if enhanced interrogation saves lives, then keep doing it.

Until your picked up by accident or mistake and denied due process and tortured..........


But cluck away cluck cluck.

Morals are overrated. I personally believe there are criminal acts bad enough where a person is no longer part of humanity. Or dare I say...no longer human. A child rapist, a mass murderer, a terrorist, etc. Stealing doesn't fall into that category nor does illegal drug use. But when a person has not only no morals or values and decides that murder, rape, etc. is fun...that person is not human and therefore...doesn't deserve any humanity. At that point, I don't care what happens to them and if torture is applied...so be it. It isn't like we are harming another person or animal...this creature is undeserving of any concern or protection. They should simply be erased from life.

Now...that may be distasteful to some. That may sound so cruel and maybe it is. But we are dealing with individuals that slice off people's heads claiming that the same God that made man wishes it. They are the radical religious eager to rape and kill women and children, cut them up into pieces and put them on display. Do you really believe THAT creature deserves to be given the same rights and protection as the rest of us? Not in my opinion.

Waterboarding? Doesn't really compare to the level of their evil...does it?

As I have stated its not really there wellfare I care about. Its giving such power to the government.

If it was up to me I would put all CONVECTED terrorists in a bare sell confined to solitary 24/7 and given a diet solely of pork. I would shoot them but I would worry im giving them what tgey want, martyrdom.


But the key is the word CONVICTED. THE CIA has a long long history of picking up the wrong person or people based of faulty intelligence. A number of Gitmo detainees were innocent and goodness knows how many innocent people ended up in the other blacks sights purely due to the fact they were denied due process. Hell look at the allegations in Chicago of the police warehouse being used as a black site!

Your constitution has due process and the banning of torture in for a reason and thats to protect YOU.

Government is inherently corrupt and incompetent and giving them such HUGE power normally has a way of back firing. Just Look at how the patriot act backfired?
One minute its those evil arab people 4000 miles away neing tortured the next your being locked in some police warehouse and are being denied access to a lawyer and basic rights over a protest at home.

You are another member who preaches the constitution. Well stick by it 100% and dont dilute or omprises it in anyway.