It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Galatians; The purpose of the Law

page: 2
4
<< 1    3 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Feb, 6 2016 @ 06:16 PM
link   
a reply to: DISRAELI

Yes.

1 Corinthians 2:
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Similarly, see Romans 8.

And there are several key verses about God creating byway of the measure of his own will/spirit/pleasure. That is, Yeshua is the body/image of what Father measures of the Spirit.

i.e. The Son leads you to Father, who is the awareness or is awareness of the Spirit.

That is what all this means.

Body of God = Yeshua
Soul of God = Father
Spirit of God = Holy Ghost

The Word leads you to the awareness of the spirit.




posted on Feb, 6 2016 @ 06:24 PM
link   
a reply to: Bleeeeep
Thank you again.
My only query is that I would see the Spirit as offering awareness of the Father, rather than the other way round.
"Because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying 'Abba! Father!'" Galatians ch4 v6



posted on Feb, 6 2016 @ 06:33 PM
link   
a reply to: DISRAELI

That's the Spirit of Yeshua being addressed there. That is the spirit you are given after baptism. The one that will baptize you by fire (trial), the one that lead you to spread the gospel (to lead people to Father), the one that makes you a child of God by being possessed by him. (Him being in you and you in him.)

Think of it like they all 3 have there own spirit yet they are one. (Like how I showed earlier that my words are to lead you to my awareness of my spirit/will and my spirit will was to will those words so that you gain spiritual awareness/awareness of my spirit. That is, they have different will/functions but all lead - all serve - to produce the same purpose (for God that same purpose units the Trinity)-- likewise, my awareness is to create images of the spirit to lead you to spiritual awareness - that is partly what it is for.)

I can look up the verses if you need me to show you where all of that is said, but I'm pretty sure you know the verses or will remember the sayings.
edit on 2/6/2016 by Bleeeeep because: (no reason given)

edit on 2/6/2016 by Bleeeeep because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 6 2016 @ 06:40 PM
link   
a reply to: Bleeeeep
But "Spirit of God" and "Spirit of Jesus" are just two alternative labels for the same Spirit; as the Nicene Creed says (unless you're Orthodox), the Spirit "proceeds from the Father and from the Son".
See Romans ch8 v9, which uses both titles at once. Or John chs14-17, where Jesus promises both to ask the Father to send the Spirit, and to send the same Spirit himself.




edit on 6-2-2016 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 6 2016 @ 06:47 PM
link   
a reply to: DISRAELI
Romans
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

You recognize 2 different spirits being mentioned there?

He speaks of both the spirit of Christ (the spirit of the Son) And the spirit of Father (the one who raised up Christ).


You need to look over that example I gave you above until you can really conceptualize what I am saying, how they are of the same spirit yet differ in functions.

Here again:



Like so:
These words are the image of my awareness/my concepts,
my awareness/conception is of my spirit/my will,
and my spirit/my will is to show you how my words are images of what is in my spirit/what is in my will, as I conceive it / measure it.


And



Think of it like they all 3 have there own spirit yet they are one. (Like how I showed earlier that my words are to lead you to my awareness of my spirit/will and my spirit will was to will those words so that you gain spiritual awareness/awareness of my spirit. That is, they have different will/functions but all lead - all serve - to produce the same purpose -- likewise, my awareness is to create images of the spirit to lead you to spiritual awareness - that is partly what it is for.)


Read it as many times as it takes for you to see how they differ yet are one.

Once you think you've got it, go read John 14... if John 14 finally makes sense, then you've got it.


Edit: As best as I can describe it, the spirit of God is God's will and his will is to produce awareness of his will and the body/images of his will.

So if your will was to produce words then those words would be your will and your will of awareness, your spirit of conception, too is apart of your will to will.

It gets complicated as it goes into infinity, but that is the basics: God does everything but everything is plural.
edit on 2/6/2016 by Bleeeeep because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 6 2016 @ 06:53 PM
link   
a reply to: Bleeeeep
No, I don't.
He talks of "being in the Spirit", provided that you have the "Spirit of God dwelling in you", and then provided that you "have the Spirit of Christ", which is obviously the same condition. He is talking about one and the same Spirit all the way through, applying different labels. There is only one Spirit.

Compare also "I will pray the Father and he will give you another Counsellor... even the Spirit of Truth" (John ch14 vv16-17) with "If I go I WILL SEND [the Counsellor] to you" (John ch v7).
The Spirit sent by the Father will be the same Spirit sent by the Son, described both times as Counsellor or Advocate.

The fathers of the early church studied the New Testament very carefully, and agreed that there is only one Spirit.
So that isn't just my own personal idea. It is and always has been the standard teaching of the church.


edit on 6-2-2016 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 6 2016 @ 07:06 PM
link   
a reply to: DISRAELI

It is easy to know because Christ did not raise up Christ.

Just like you and I have the same breath of life in us, the same spirit, we, ourselves, differ.

And read my edit above, I tried to better explain it.



posted on Feb, 6 2016 @ 07:10 PM
link   
a reply to: Bleeeeep
No, the Spirit raised him from the dead; nevertheless, he has subsequently the power to SEND the same Spirit, as I have demonstrated from John. That is why the same Spirit may also be called the Spirit of Christ.
And I remind you again that this is the teaching of the Nicene Creed and the standard teaching of the church.




edit on 6-2-2016 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 6 2016 @ 07:39 PM
link   
a reply to: DISRAELI



And I remind you again that this is the teaching of the Nicene Creed and the standard teaching of the church.


Their "standard teachings" mean nothing to me. The only authority is God. What is wrong with you, trying to make an appeal to authority like that?

Clearly they are wrong. Why would one spirit lead you to long for another, if they are not different? Why would one lead you to another, if they are one and in the same? Why does he constantly address himself as being different than, even less than, Father, if they are the same? Why do they do different things if they are the same?

They are clearly different, yet are united by a common purpose/spirit (Ruach Elohim). Yeshua is the body or form of the spirit - that is his spirit - that of the Child/body/form/physicality/Word/Bread/Vine/Branch/Shepherd, etc.

Father measures him/conceives him of the Spirit - raises him - measures him - manifests him - speaks him - that is his spirit.


I have made it very easy for you to understand. The only thing holding you back is you.

Words are image of awareness (Yeshua)
awareness is of will/spirit (Father)
spirit is to will self-awareness/spiritual awareness (The Holy Spirit)



posted on Feb, 6 2016 @ 08:28 PM
link   
a reply to: Bleeeeep

I have no horse in this race in any case...

but the creeds of the church is the standard teaching of Christianity as Disraeli said

Regardless of what Jesus actually said (which by the way puts me on your side in this issue)

Basically believing in the trinity, yet still maintaining the Father as superior is actually Arianism




posted on Feb, 7 2016 @ 02:57 AM
link   

originally posted by: Bleeeeep
Their "standard teachings" mean nothing to me. The only authority is God. What is wrong with you, trying to make an appeal to authority like that?

They mean something to me, because I am a Christian, and the consensus of the early church is what defines Christianity.
Otherwise I end up in the "Make up your own religion" school of thought.
I do not believe that the consensus of the early church lacked the ability to understand the New Testament they were studying.

I don't know why you bring up the relation between Father and Son, which I haven't been discussing.
The consensus recognises the relationship of ONE Father, ONE Son, and ONE Spirit. A famous line in Dante describes them, respectively, as Power, Wisdom, and Love. Incidentally the phrase Ruach Elohim, which you quote, is Hebrew for "spirit OF God". In other words, it identifies the Spirit as belonging to something else. The Spirit is not, by itself, the ultimate and supreme.

The consensus teaches that the Father and Son BOTH send the Spirit, between them. That is clearly evidenced in John, where Jesus tells his disciples that he will ask the Father to send the Counsellor (ch14) and will himself send the same Counsellor (ch16).
Romans ch 8 v9 says that we belong to Christ, on condition that the Spirit dwells in us, on condition that the Spirit of God dwells in us, on condition that the Spirit of Christ dwells in us. These are all different ways of describing the same condition. You are supposing that different labels MUST apply to different things. That comes from being over-literal. In this case, different labels are evidently being applied to what is only one Spirit, the Spirit jointly sent by the Father and by Christ.
All other references to the Holy Spirit in the New Testament are understandable in those terms.



posted on Feb, 7 2016 @ 12:18 PM
link   

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: Bleeeeepbut the creeds of the church is the standard teaching of Christianity as Disraeli said


When church creeds replace the Bible in the organized church it is time to get out of that group.



posted on Feb, 7 2016 @ 01:23 PM
link   
a reply to: ChesterJohn

Well... IF one subscribes to The Athanasian Creed

Its time to get out I suppose.... and that covers most of Christianity




posted on Feb, 7 2016 @ 04:32 PM
link   
a reply to: Akragon

But that creed was developed in the 6th century by the Roman Catholic Church. It was not a creed of the Bible but of religious men who thought their words weighed more than Gods.

Where creed are in disagreement with the word of God throw out the creed and get the preserved word of God.

They use not the correct scriptures of the Godhead to prove their inserted Trinity. and 1 John 5:7 they count three and say trinity but it is the godhead of which Jesus Christ was the fullness of.
edit on 7-2-2016 by ChesterJohn because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 7 2016 @ 04:41 PM
link   
a reply to: ChesterJohn

Im not going to get into 1 john 5:7...

the point is said creed is used to express equality between the "entities" of said trinity...

Which is not anything Jesus taught... Athanasius was the first to offer his idea of equality in his little dispute with Arius as far as I know, which is why said creed is named after him

Instead of celebrating such a victory, he should have been expelled from the church for his heresy... instead he was promoted from deacon to bishop soon after




posted on Feb, 8 2016 @ 12:12 AM
link   

originally posted by: DISRAELI
They mean something to me, because I am a Christian, and the consensus of the early church is what defines Christianity. Otherwise I end up in the "Make up your own religion" school of thought. I do not believe that the consensus of the early church lacked the ability to understand the New Testament they were studying.


If you were a Christian you would follow Christ.


I don't know why you bring up the relation between Father and Son, which I haven't been discussing.

The relationship between the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost is consequential to the Law. By understanding the relationship of the Trinity, you can better understand what the Law was, and was for. Didn't you understand the connection/relationship I showed you? (Yeshua is the word/law and the word is to lead you to Father, like my words here are meant to lead you to understand my awareness of my spirit.)

e.g. My spirit/will is to help you better understand God.

[The word leads you to [conception [of the spirit.]]]
[Son [Father [Holy Ghost.]]]
[God]


The consensus teaches that the Father and Son BOTH send the Spirit, between them. That is clearly evidenced in John, where Jesus tells his disciples that he will ask the Father to send the Counsellor (ch14) and will himself send the same Counsellor (ch16).
Romans ch 8 v9 says that we belong to Christ, on condition that the Spirit dwells in us, on condition that the Spirit of God dwells in us, on condition that the Spirit of Christ dwells in us. These are all different ways of describing the same condition. You are supposing that different labels MUST apply to different things. That comes from being over-literal. In this case, different labels are evidently being applied to what is only one Spirit, the Spirit jointly sent by the Father and by Christ.
All other references to the Holy Spirit in the New Testament are understandable in those terms.


You mean Comforter, not "Counsellor", and what Yeshua is trying to express there is the same relationship that I was trying to show you: That he is his father's son (his does his father's will which is the Spirit of God) -- not that he is the Father and/or the Holy Spirit.

What you are wrestling with is the issue of all life coming from the Spirit, and yet each life-form is also a spirit unto itself. You are conflating the infinity of God / the eternal Godhead with doing God's will: each life has, within it, the breath of God, and yet there is only one spirit who is, himself, the Spirit.

e.g. If Yeshua does Father's will, and you follow Yeshua (if you do Yeshua's will), then you also do Father's will.

So, yes, like all life, Yeshua has the breath of God in him, and like some, he is a child of God, but no, Yeshua is not the breath of God, himself.

And now, with this understanding, read John 14 again, and see if it doesn't make a lot more sense.

God's will is 1. And together, they all do the same will.

Again the example from the earlier post:
Like so:
1.These words are the image of my awareness/my concepts,
2.my awareness/conception is of my spirit/my will,
3.and my spirit/my will is to show you how my words are images of what is in my spirit/what is in my will, as I conceive it / measure it.

1.Son is the image of father / the godhead bodily - the Body.
2.Father is the awareness of God / the head - the Soul.
3.Holy Ghost is the will of God - the Spirit.

Once that example clicks in your mind, you will understand what I have been trying to show you. All three are a part of the same will/Spirit. Yeshua's part is to be the Son, Father's is to be the Father, The Holy Ghosts is to be the Spirit.

good luck.
edit on 2/8/2016 by Bleeeeep because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 8 2016 @ 01:59 AM
link   

originally posted by: Bleeeeep
You mean Comforter, not "Counsellor", and what Yeshua is trying to express there ... not that he is the Father and/or the Holy Spirit.

Why don't you people get away from the Authorised Version occasionally and recognise that other translations exist?
Actually I meant PARAKLETOS, translated as Comforter in the AV and Counsellor in the RSV, which is my usual quoting version. But there are also good reasons for translating it as Advocate, which is the Latinised version of the same word. I did two threads on this last summer. It might be worth your while to read them, in order to understand John's references better.

The Spirit, the Counsellor
The Spirit, the Advocate

You are guilty of not reading my words with due attention, because you are trying to refute something I did not say.
I did NOT argue that "he is the Father and/or the Holy Spirit".
I told you that he and the Father jointly SEND the Spirit, as explained in John. The word is SEND. In order to send someone, it is not necessary to be that person.

Until you have grasped the point I am making, your efforts to answer it compeletely miss the mark.

edit on 8-2-2016 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 8 2016 @ 02:10 AM
link   
a reply to: DISRAELI

I hate to drag you thread off topic... which I always seem to do... lol

Sorry...

but to the issue of "equality"?

And the doctrine of said topic?




posted on Feb, 8 2016 @ 02:15 AM
link   
a reply to: Akragon
No, that really would need a completely new thread.
I would stand by the consensus of the early church, but I'm not going to argue out the point here.



posted on Feb, 8 2016 @ 02:18 AM
link   
a reply to: DISRAELI

Fair enough...

Let me know when you deal with it... I'll be there with bells on



S&F
edit on 8-2-2016 by Akragon because: (no reason given)



new topics

top topics



 
4
<< 1    3 >>

log in

join