It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Breaking: Lavoy Finicum Tased By OSP Implicates Murder By The Feds

page: 10
30
<< 7  8  9    11  12  13 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Feb, 6 2016 @ 08:23 PM
link   
a reply to: imitator

Applying labels like "hero" and "thugs" and "tyrants" certainly speaks to just how open your mind really is.

I think most people would rather crash into a powder snow bank than other vehicles. And I would think that most people are aware by now that the act of reaching towards your waist when dealing with law enforcement is usually a good way to get shot. Whether that's justified in your eyes is pretty immaterial.

I'll let you get back to your name calling, though. All open minded and such.




posted on Feb, 6 2016 @ 09:30 PM
link   

originally posted by: TheBadCabbie

originally posted by: CharlesT
a reply to: TheBadCabbie

The authorities may have provoked them into believing they had no other option. Wouldn't be the first time someone was forced to react to hostile intent by authorities.

Indeed. If they actually shot at him at the first stop, though, then I think most people would have had a personal apocolyptic moment. For you at that point, the rule of law has broken down, and you really have no reasonable expectation that the authorities expect to return anything other than a body to the government facility. At that point, it's a "the man's tryin' to gun me down" type scenario, so anyone with the cajones is going to try and do just about whatever he can to protect himself and those he cares about. If that is actually how it went down, I think he could have shot all those cops and in an actual fair court, might have even been acquitted of the charges. You have no reasonable expectation of the rule of law prevailing in that type of situation.

Even if that's not true(if he wasn't shot at at the first stop), they were on their way to a meeting that was orchestrating a process that would have led to a peaceful resolution. He probably could've plowed that roadblock in his truck and kept rolling if he wanted to be mean. Instead he swerved to the side, knowing he would get stuck, and stepped out of the vehicle(his only hard cover close enough at hand to be of any use in a firefight) with his hands held away from his body and clearly visible to all of the guys with the guns(and probably yelling), and got shot to death. He was perhaps a threat to the authorities within their minds, but nothing more, in my speculative opinion. The authorities got the ol' itchy trigger finger like they tend to do, or it was a calculated hit for whatever reason.

If he'd gotten mean enough, he might've survived the roadblock, and possibly even escaped. I would imagine fully escaping and evading would have been very unlikely, if the authorities had chosen their terrain well enough for the ambush; but it would still have been a possibility, however unlikely. If anything, his desire for a peaceful resolution is what cost him his life, in my opinion.


Very well presented. 5 star reply.



posted on Feb, 6 2016 @ 09:52 PM
link   
a reply to: intrptr

No, they knew exactly who he was. This was an ambush, clearly!!!



posted on Feb, 6 2016 @ 11:31 PM
link   
I just wanted to write a more general reply here to clarify my overall position in regards to the issues we've been dicussing so far.

Regarding law enforcement, I honestly have no particular dislike for LEO's. I've lived in areas where the majority of LEO's in the area were corrupt and had little respect for individual rights. I have in more recent years had the good fortune to reside in an area where the opposite has been true, at least in my sujective experience of this region. Sure, I've been shaken down a few times here, but nothing like the treatment I experienced in the other region. There is corruption here, but it is actually prosecuted, whereas the other region was largely corrupt and highly antagonistic of any attempts at addressing the corruption that existed there. I've seen both sides of that issue: that many LEO's are very responsible and even handed in their approach, but that there is also a nasty side to the culture of policing that exists within the culture as a whole, and is more or less prevalent in the differring regions of our great nation, depending on where you are.

Driving a taxi on the graveyard shift I think helped me to develop a slight rapport and camraderie with the local LEO's, as well as a vague understanding of some of the issues that these men and women have to deal with on a day to day basis. After all, I had to prowl the sketchy apartment complexes and ghettoes that they themselves would be apprehensive about entering, on a nightly basis, just to earn my pay. I took my life in my hands every time I got behind the wheel, and with much less of a support system than those LEO's enjoyed. You really never know who's going to get in your car next(and no, no plexiglass divider). I like to think, then, that there was at least a little bit of unspoken mutual respect that existed between us, due to our similar and risky occupations.

Sometimes I needed their help, and was glad to have it. Other times they asked for mine, and I was happy to oblige. I wrote this to provide context for my commentary, so that you folks know that I am not approaching this discussion as some kind of cop hater, though I have directly experienced how unpleasant life can be when law enforcement activities are conducted poorly.

As a proud Libertarian I tend to an anti-establishment point of view due to my philosophical beliefs. I dislike an overabundance of bureaucracy, but I have a healthy respect for the law and the rule of law. I strongly defend the constitution and the founding fathers' philosophies because they're so beautiful, and beacuse I believe they are the best philosophy of government that there is, but I have no desire to see the rule of law break down in this great nation.

That's a little more context for my point of view. Some deeper thoughts then.
There seems to be an impasse on reconciling the natural common law philosophy of government and the statist philosophy of government that is at the core of the debate we're having. We're all dancing around it without codifying it. Anyhow, both groups it seems will cling strongly to their beliefs(I know I will) but I think this is one of the underlying currents in the debate we're having now that until reconciled will continue to be a dividing factor to our nation, weakening us as a people. The best answer of course in my opinion would be for you statists to convert over to common law.


The culture of policing...Heavy handed government action from federal, state, and local levels is nothing new in this country and is a problem that needs to be reconciled, if we want to move forward as a nation. I can dig out stories all day long about trigger happy cops and I could probably do that for five years without running out of material. Taking all the guns away isn't a realistic option, and wouldn't really fix it anyway. What's the answer here, then? What's the magic rule that we need to create or method to institute to curb this issue, whether you think this incident was one or not? Sensitivity training? Stricter laws governing initiation of force? More/other training? What? This is not a slam on cops! There's a problem here. How do we fix it?

I think part of the policing culture issue also involves the impasse on philosophy of government that I referenced above.

As to insurrections...They will occur in lockstep with the creeping government reach of authority, or at least we can hope that they do. The peoples right to become unruly is a counterbalance to the natural tendency for government to become overbearing. Let us hope that our leaders take notice, and adjust their behavior accordingly (I personally have my doubts about that), so that things never have to truly get ugly here. If we go there, we all lose, and we'll be lucky if we still have a constitutional republic when we get done. Those ranchers got involved because of personal serious events that occurred in their lives urging them to that point, which I think was as it should be. They took action in a manner which I personally found to be admirable. Not a shot fired, not a soul killed or injured(except poor Mr. Finicum
). Got the attention of the governing bodies that they had been aggrieved with. They did their civic duty, though not in the way you or I would normally think of it. That's my opinion, anyhow.



posted on Feb, 6 2016 @ 11:41 PM
link   
Oh, and context provided, hate to say it, but it looks like murder. Manslaughter at least. An unjustified killing. I want the cops to be the good guys, I really do, but from what I've seen so far they didn't do too good out there that day, in my opinion. This was a classic example of heavy handed government action, in my opinion. They screwed up. They popped off too quick. That, or his murder had been prearranged, and this truly was murder.
edit on 6-2-2016 by TheBadCabbie because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 6 2016 @ 11:42 PM
link   
Romanticized views about the realities of our legal system, our government, and our history all combined with a particularly nasty version of theocratic yearnings (Skousenite claptrap) in Mr. Finicum's case and created the sad situation that culminated in his death.

Idealism, and particularly, extremist idealism is not the answer to our problems. We have the greatest system of government in the world, the most optimum balance between individual liberty and collective control and effort.

We need to focus on what our Constitution actually says and we need to root out, wherever we find it, opposition to that Constitutional Way ... whether that is within our Government or without ... even in passionate, likable cowboys who have misunderstood and misinterpreted the American way.



posted on Feb, 6 2016 @ 11:45 PM
link   
a reply to: TheBadCabbie

I gave you a star since you made several good points. However I do have to disagree with one their actions did indeed hurt someone in fact got them killed. The constitution is an incredible document it gives so many ways for citizens to express their grievences. And none if these involve taking up arms. Their is a huge novemny right now to change the federal government many are probably not aware of but its legal under the constitution. So far 5 state legislatures have approved what is called a convention of states. To give you the quick run down states get together to amend the constitution. This particular one is being called to set term limits and add a balanced budget requirement in the constition. I was going to actually create a three on it when I had the time. But here this will explain how it works.

www.conventionofstates.com...



posted on Feb, 7 2016 @ 12:06 AM
link   

originally posted by: TheBadCabbie
They screwed up. They popped off too quick.


So you think the police should have waited for the nutter Finicum to shoot them before they are allowed to shoot him back...



posted on Feb, 7 2016 @ 12:08 AM
link   
a reply to: dragonridr

a reply to: Gryphon66

Right, right. Kinda figured you guys for statists. I still think civil unrest is an integral part of what drives the cultural evolution of this nation. Root it out? You might as well try to root out culture itself. A nation as diverse as this will generate unrest from time to time simply as a matter of course. Sometimes very calculated, others almost accidental. Sometimes well warranted, others not so much.

We could have my TheBadCabbie's super constitutional revolution that was the greatest thing that ever happened to this country and it was like strawberry fields forever (except for Gryphon66: Skousenites everywhere! Look out!), we would still have unrest from time to time. It's wired into the system, in my opinion. Trying to cull it out would change this country in a terrible way. Russia did that, decades ago. Took a lot of people away, and they never came home from that prison. China did too, though with somewhat different (and more disgusting) methods. Some might say we're attempting it now, with our well populated and ever growing prison system.



posted on Feb, 7 2016 @ 12:10 AM
link   

originally posted by: hellobruce

originally posted by: TheBadCabbie
They screwed up. They popped off too quick.


So you think the police should have waited for the nutter Finicum to shoot them before they are allowed to shoot him back...

No, I think they should have taken the man in without killing him, not that they needed to.



posted on Feb, 7 2016 @ 12:31 AM
link   

originally posted by: TheBadCabbie
No, I think they should have taken the man in without killing him,


As we have seen, he did not want that. His decision to go for his gun, he suffered the consequences.



posted on Feb, 7 2016 @ 01:11 AM
link   
a reply to: TheBadCabbie

Statist is a pejorative term applied by idealists to anyone who doesn't meet their individual muster of sufficient idealism.

I am an American citizen, proud to be so, I believe in our Constitution, our system of government.

Now, could we stand a little more anarchy or at least a little more independent thought (based on facts and reason)?

Sure! Absolutely! Civil disobedience when the normal redress of grievances doesn't work (aka our judicial system)?

Sure! Absolutely! But we can't break the laws and dishonor the Constitution we are trying to preserve by doing so.

No, there are not Skousenites everywhere! How silly. What a convenient strawman stuffed with hyperbole !

The Bundy Gang though (including the old man crouching safely back in Nevada) ARE cultists of this stripe, they have stated that they believe in Skousen's teachings, and they sacrificed for their insane cause a seemingly decent man who listened to these teachings and trusted them as his friends.



posted on Feb, 7 2016 @ 01:40 AM
link   

originally posted by: CharlesT
a reply to: intrptr

No, they knew exactly who he was. This was an ambush, clearly!!!


Obviously they knew who he was. I meant they got him to reach to justify shooting.



posted on Feb, 7 2016 @ 02:39 AM
link   

originally posted by: Shamrock6
a reply to: imitator

Applying labels like "hero" and "thugs" and "tyrants" certainly speaks to just how open your mind really is.


Oh yeah.... I'm very open minded, as this is a true story about a hero, murder, tyrants and thugs. They are very real.... whereas you don't think they exist.


originally posted by: Shamrock6
a reply to: imitator
I think most people would rather crash into a powder snow bank than other vehicles. And I would think that most people are aware by now that the act of reaching towards your waist when dealing with law enforcement is usually a good way to get shot. Whether that's justified in your eyes is pretty immaterial.


As we all know, he had no choice but to crash and avoid hitting a Keystone Kop.

Law enforcement like our government are overstepping their legal limits with oppressive and unjustly type tactics, and here we have a fine example of both working in tandem caught on video....and I'm sure it's on audio too.... and yes they are tyrants!!! They are very real..........

It's no wonder there's so many private militia groups, the war of independence is happening again....... it's pretty obvious your on the losing side. A day will come when people had enough of the BS that you believe in.


edit on 7-2-2016 by imitator because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 7 2016 @ 08:27 AM
link   

originally posted by: imitator

originally posted by: Shamrock6
a reply to: imitator

Applying labels like "hero" and "thugs" and "tyrants" certainly speaks to just how open your mind really is.


Oh yeah.... I'm very open minded, as this is a true story about a hero, murder, tyrants and thugs. They are very real.... whereas you don't think they exist.


originally posted by: Shamrock6
a reply to: imitator
I think most people would rather crash into a powder snow bank than other vehicles. And I would think that most people are aware by now that the act of reaching towards your waist when dealing with law enforcement is usually a good way to get shot. Whether that's justified in your eyes is pretty immaterial.


As we all know, he had no choice but to crash and avoid hitting a Keystone Kop.

Law enforcement like our government are overstepping their legal limits with oppressive and unjustly type tactics, and here we have a fine example of both working in tandem caught on video....and I'm sure it's on audio too.... and yes they are tyrants!!! They are very real..........

It's no wonder there's so many private militia groups, the war of independence is happening again....... it's pretty obvious your on the losing side. A day will come when people had enough of the BS that you believe in.



Crash? Why do you say that? My bet is that he was trying to go around the roadblock and made a decision to try. He was already on the run and wanted to escape. When he stranded the truck, he hopped out heading uphill, still thinking escape. Some were saying he was protecting the passengers but I think he was not thinking that clearly and was frantically running in circles looking for an escape route. When he saw the officer coming out of the trees and realized he was cornered and headed for jail, he panicked and made another decision which cost him his life. He did go out on his terms and did not go to jail.
All this because Greedy Daddy Bundy, hiding in the next state, didn't pay grazing fees for the last 20 years. Yes, ranching is not an easy life. It is hard work from dawn to dusk with no days off. That does not excuse Bundy. Other ranchers don't occupy federal facilities when they have a complaint. Flyingclaydisc doesn't do this and he has some serious gripes with BLM. What should be done? The Congs and Sens from the states where grazing on Federal land is important should form a coalition and fix the problems. BLM can be reigned in. The problem with Bundy is that no fix in DC would give him a free pass, so he has to play like he is injured and call on "patriots" who are a bunch of guys playing soldiers to try to pressure the Feds to let him off the hook.



posted on Feb, 7 2016 @ 08:38 AM
link   
a reply to: pteridine


THis parson would still be a live if the dumb FBI agent didnt move out into the open and confront him like a damn superhero. This dumb agent put himself in direct danger stepping out into the open like that. He should have fallowed roadblock prosedure and stayed behind cover.



posted on Feb, 7 2016 @ 10:41 AM
link   

originally posted by: spy66
a reply to: pteridine


THis parson would still be a live if the dumb FBI agent didnt move out into the open and confront him like a damn superhero. This dumb agent put himself in direct danger stepping out into the open like that. He should have fallowed roadblock prosedure and stayed behind cover.



Are you postulating that Finicum would have made it around the roadblock had the agent not moved from behind the barrier and up the hill? Did you consider that the agent may have thought that the truck was going to hit the barrier and was moving away from perceived danger? Seeing the depth of the snow, do you think Finicum could have made it around the barrier?



posted on Feb, 7 2016 @ 11:15 AM
link   

originally posted by: pteridine

originally posted by: spy66
a reply to: pteridine


THis parson would still be a live if the dumb FBI agent didnt move out into the open and confront him like a damn superhero. This dumb agent put himself in direct danger stepping out into the open like that. He should have fallowed roadblock prosedure and stayed behind cover.



Are you postulating that Finicum would have made it around the roadblock had the agent not moved from behind the barrier and up the hill? Did you consider that the agent may have thought that the truck was going to hit the barrier and was moving away from perceived danger? Seeing the depth of the snow, do you think Finicum could have made it around the barrier?


No. That is not what i am saying. THe egent who approached Finicum as he was walking away from the truck With his hands over his head. He is the one who left cover to approach Finicum in the open. That agent put himself in direct harms way ingaging Finicum. You can see the agent leave cover to ingage him. THat is not in line With training or roadblock protocall. You dont leave cover like that on Your own towards a suspect that might be armed.

That is not even common sense.



posted on Feb, 7 2016 @ 11:32 AM
link   
a reply to: pteridine

What Rubbish.




posted on Feb, 7 2016 @ 11:38 AM
link   
As I have previously stated, the truck was either mostly or completely off of the road when the ignorant cop jumped out from behind his blocking vehicle. What part of believing what the video actually shows do you refuse to accept? Only the obvious parts?

a reply to: pteridine




top topics



 
30
<< 7  8  9    11  12  13 >>

log in

join