Well, of course ATS has a lot of liberal members!

originally posted by: mOjOm

originally posted by: Annee

Show me the people who sincerely want change and are willing to personally do something about it. Before you talk to me about a politician who's going to do it for them.

I'd rather save the planet and its resources.

That is the exact reason I say the world isn't ready. There are still too many people fearing change of any kind without understanding that like it or not things are going to change even if if it means taking them along kicking and screaming the entire time.

So, the natural planet is a mess. And, with man's help, we could blow the whole thing up.

Why coddle people who only care about their own porch?

People can complain about new immigrants, but those first generation immigrants tend to work hard for a better life. They'll probably contribute more to this country then everyone complaining about them.

Guess I just see a bigger picture.

originally posted by: Annee

So, the natural planet is a mess. And, with man's help, we could blow the whole thing up.

Why coddle people who only care about their own porch?

People can complain about new immigrants, but those first generation immigrants tend to work hard for a better life. They'll probably contribute more to this country then everyone complaining about them.

Guess I just see a bigger picture.

No, I totally agree. But it's not that I'm saying to coddle anyone. If anything they need a swift kick in the butt and to get their heads straight and get on board. But the problem is over the span of my life I have learned one thing for sure and that is you can't change anyone, only yourself.. Well, without using sever trauma based mind control or something anyway.

Even worse, if you try to change someone who isn't wanting that change they resist even more simply out of spite and stubbornness making it even harder to get them on board anything.

It sucks and I hate that we construct society based on the weakest links and it may be the end of us all because of it. But you can only carry people so far before they need to walk on their own.

I wonder how many conservatives have liberal views, say like on the Environment and How many liberals have conservative views, say like on Second Amendment rights?

I'm an independent. I can't be confined to a stereotype like that, nor do I really want to be associated with any group. Just when I think I want to be a democrat, I get saddled with Hillary, not going to happen, just when I want to be a conservative, I get a snake oil salesman like Cruz. Meh.

a reply to: stevieray

The 1950's called - they want their ideologies back.

The line is drawn at consenting adults. Anything else involves victimization in some way.

You do your own thing - it's none of our business, as long as you aren't victimizing someone. You can have sex with your significant other through a hole in a sheet if you are that repressed - knock yourself out. But on the flip side, it's none of your business what other consenting adults do in their own bedroom.

a reply to: amazing

I'm a mixed Lib/Con I think. I'm liberal in most cases but support the 2nd. I like gun myself and don't have a problem with others liking them either.

But that doesn't include being a jackass with zero responsibility with them either. The people who want to carry their assault rifle around a school or in to Walmart or whatever just to show that they're a open carry gun lover should have them taken away until they learn to be adult about it. Stuff like that.

Some people just take some things too far.

The libs do it too with intervening on others too. Or lately with all the hate speech laws and restricting free speech on college campuses and stuff. They sometimes go too far in their attempt to have everyone be nice and only say certain things. Well, to me that just means they don't get the idea of free speech. I say let people say what they want and if everyone is allowed to do so then if you say the wrong thing to the wrong person they'll say something back to let them know it's wrong. Otherwise nobody has a chance to learn anything for themselves. We all have to make mistakes in life to learn why not to make them. Some things you just have to experience in order to know why not to do them.

“But this so-called new liberal group… they never listen to your point of view and they make a decision as to what you think and they’re articulate enough and in control of enough of the press to force that image out for the average person.” John Wayne.

originally posted by: mOjOm

originally posted by: Annee

So, the natural planet is a mess. And, with man's help, we could blow the whole thing up.

Why coddle people who only care about their own porch?

People can complain about new immigrants, but those first generation immigrants tend to work hard for a better life. They'll probably contribute more to this country then everyone complaining about them.

Guess I just see a bigger picture.

Even worse, if you try to change someone who isn't wanting that change they resist even more simply out of spite and stubbornness making it even harder to get them on board anything.

You mean like integration and marriage equality that the Federal Supreme Court said: "This is how it's going to be", deal with it.

originally posted by: Annee

You mean like integration and marriage equality that the Federal Supreme Court said: "This is how it's going to be", deal with it.

Gay marriage didn't make anyone change anything though. Nobody is effected by that other than gay people who can now legally marry. No body else had to change anything at all about any part of their life. So that wouldn't count. There is no other option than them having to deal with it and they have no grounds to argue against it other than they just don't like it. Oh well, not liking a concept doesn't mean you can do anything about it. It is what it is.

Integration I suppose would depend on what you mean exactly. Historically we have examples where it worked and others where it didn't for the exact reasons I mentioned.

a reply to: mOjOm

Honestly, I think the problem is that we use an "all or nothing" approach to policies. Things would go much smoother if we let citizens opt out of specific programs. That kind of approach could revolutionize politics, though it would require people in office who are ok with letting go of power. Right now, most of the people who are attracted to politics seem to be control freaks. Or perhaps more accurately, control freaks are attracted to positions that allow them to control the lives of others, such as politics and law enforcement.

originally posted by: awareness10

“But this so-called new liberal group… they never listen to your point of view and they make a decision as to what you think and they’re articulate enough and in control of enough of the press to force that image out for the average person.” John Wayne.

The funny thing is that quote goes both ways today...like this

"But this so-called new Conservative group...they never listen to your point of view and they make a decision as to what you think and they're articulate and in control of enough of the press to force that image out for the average person." Amazing

originally posted by: enlightenedservant

Honestly, I think the problem is that we use an "all or nothing" approach to policies. Things would go much smoother if we let citizens opt out of specific programs. That kind of approach could revolutionize politics, though it would require people in office who are ok with letting go of power. Right now, most of the people who are attracted to politics seem to be control freaks. Or perhaps more accurately, control freaks are attracted to positions that allow them to control the lives of others, such as politics and law enforcement.

We do let people opt out of some things already actually. Religion is one of the major opt out groups that already get to excuse themselves from all sorts of things. Sometimes they push that opting out policy so far that they stop others from opting in even if they want to. But I basically would agree with you. I know I'd love to be able to opt out of some laws and policies if I could and I'm sure there are others who'd love to as well. That would change government for sure and would allow for many new avenues of liberty and freedom to be opened up for people. But I'm not sure how it would be implemented exactly. Plus like you said, I don't see too many of those who are in control wanting to give any of that control up any time soon.

I'm finally getting around to this thread.... just a thought that, because America has swung so far to the right, people have been called/accused of being liberal just for being to the left of far right, reactionary extremists. The latest example, John McCain a liberal??

And it used to be there were liberal, moderate and conservative ideas in both parties, so compromise was possible. Now with the Sorting Hat saying cons go here and libs go there, I certainly can understand how people get confused over being labeled, what "label" to take for the sake of politics.

originally posted by: LSU0408

originally posted by: Medicator
Im a big ole liberal and Im voting TRUMP !

I'm a far right Conservative and I am too. Looks like he's gonna be the one to unites America again. Other liberals and Conservatives will just have to relocate once he's elected.

So he's going to unite America by alienating half the population?

To suggest a country will become 'united' by getting ride those who disagree, (self deporting or otherwise) has an unpleasant ring about it, suggestive of Europe heading toward facism in the 1930s.

originally posted by: enlightenedservant
a reply to: mOjOm

Honestly, I think the problem is that we use an "all or nothing" approach to policies. Things would go much smoother if we let citizens opt out of specific programs.

That's like signing up for a class. Organizers get the materials, the class room, the teacher ---- which all costs money.

Then you say I've changed my mind, I want my money back. But, your money has already been allocated.

Multiply that times 320 million people all trying to be individuals.

My take is a bit different. I don't disagree with the hopes of liberals...I think that often what they wish were possible would actually be nice. In some ways they hope for a utopia where everyone gets along, everyone is taken care of, everyone has what they need and want, etc. I'm not hateful and don't wish anything else for people. I would love to live in a utopia where there were no worries. But that isn't reality.

You see...I believe a liberal would easily say "humans are better than animals" while I would say "humans are just another animal". I obvious believe I'm correct. I believe that when you take an animal...even a human and demand more of them that what they are able to be, you create a creature that constantly fails to meet expectations. You can't expect a dog not to bark and attempting to force it to be something it is not, is far worse than letting it be itself.

Liberals will desire for a utopia is changing everything we are. Remove how we naturally label others and group others. Change that we get angry and sometimes violent, etc. In short...a utopian society is not where we are. Just because we can do bits and pieces of it when forced to do so...forcing a dog not to bark doesn't make it better, it changes what it is and forces it to repress itself. Yes...an annoying thing, but still what it is.

I am against all that. I don't want dogs that don't bark. I don't want lions that don't kill, snakes that don't bite nor monkeys that don't fling their poo. I don't want to dress them up in a tux and have them chit-chat about current events while sipping wine. That is not what they are and they are beautiful AS they are. So are we. We have our faults, we have a number of things that would be nice to change and maybe they will. But until they change naturally...forcing such changes are not respecting ourselves and basking in the beauty of humans any more than forcing a change in our society is healthy for our country.

When we are ready to evolve further...we will. Liberals want to force it and look where we are. We aren't better off as a whole and sometimes we are just more, and more depressed and pissed off about not being allowed to speak certain words, drink certain drinks, drive certain cars or carry certain guns. Freedom includes freedom to be oneself...and even to be an ass.

originally posted by: cuckooold
To suggest a country will become 'united' by getting ride those who disagree, (self deporting or otherwise) has an unpleasant ring about it, suggestive of Europe heading toward facism in the 1930s.

Seriously! WTF!! Make America MINE Again.

I lived through the "America. Love it or leave it." crap.

Yep. American fascism once again rears its ugly head. Americans have to understand that you can only keep fascistic thinking like that at bay. It never goes away, because that's human nature. The point of America is not that we're some awesomely perfect country where no one is ugly; it's rather that we've been able to keep such ugliness in check.

God help us if this country has to learn Europe's lesson the hard way.

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: stevieray

The 1950's called - they want their ideologies back.

The line is drawn at consenting adults. Anything else involves victimization in some way.

You do your own thing - it's none of our business, as long as you aren't victimizing someone. You can have sex with your significant other through a hole in a sheet if you are that repressed - knock yourself out. But on the flip side, it's none of your business what other consenting adults do in their own bedroom.

awww, lookie here.

The "anybody who disagrees with me is repressed" dance.

Close cousin to "anybody who disagrees with me is stewwwpid....agree with me and be kewwwl !"

9th grade called and is very angry that someone kidnapped their outlooks, trying to use them in the adult world.

I don't buy the "consenting adults" canard, when the consenting adults are blatantly sick, and trying to drag society down into their sickness 24/7.

We should NOT be praising and celebrating people who change their gender daily, and mutilate their genitals, and demand to defecate in a stall next to a different gender each day, whenever it sounds titillating to them.

Even the cavemen discovered that some roles and rules were good among people. There really is no such thing as "nothing matters except what makes me happy". There really isn't, lol....it's just an extension of the basic mental illnesses, taking it to a level of "hahahaha you will allow me to do anything I want.....AND praise whatever I do".

Just because the most ill among us have convinced some foolish people to actually do this recently....doesn't mean that it will stand indefinitely.

Things come and go in waves. A wave of logic, honesty, and decency is just around the bend.

originally posted by: desert

originally posted by: cuckooold
To suggest a country will become 'united' by getting ride those who disagree, (self deporting or otherwise) has an unpleasant ring about it, suggestive of Europe heading toward facism in the 1930s.

Seriously! WTF!! Make America MINE Again.

I lived through the "America. Love it or leave it." crap.

Yep. American fascism once again rears its ugly head. Americans have to understand that you can only keep fascistic thinking like that at bay. It never goes away, because that's human nature. The point of America is not that we're some awesomely perfect country where no one is ugly; it's rather that we've been able to keep such ugliness in check.

God help us if this country has to learn Europe's lesson the hard way.

The progressive movement has been doing just this for the last 40 years, in colleges and universities, public schools, the workplace, and so on.

There has been no conservative fascism for 40 to 50 years. It's all selfish progressive utopian flavored, instead.

I do understand that sticking up to the neo-marxist fascism will be viewed as "horrible", that's a given. But too bad. We've given in to the threats, caterwauling, screeching, and labels of racist, sexist, every kind of phobe, long enough.

Slowly, their own nastiness is being thrown back at the marxists. And boy are they pitching a fit. If they don't get what they want in this election, there will be a round of Fergusons across the country. Just to destroy things because they didn't get their way.

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: enlightenedservant
a reply to: mOjOm

Honestly, I think the problem is that we use an "all or nothing" approach to policies. Things would go much smoother if we let citizens opt out of specific programs.

That's like signing up for a class. Organizers get the materials, the class room, the teacher ---- which all costs money.

Then you say I've changed my mind, I want my money back. But, your money has already been allocated.

Multiply that times 320 million people all trying to be individuals.

It's why this country was designed to have minimal government and maximum individual rights.

So that the professional political power class wouldn't continually dream up schemes to rope everybody into monolithic, mega-cost schemes that are "too big and important to question"...and of course ever escape from.

We are a libertarian country in nature, and citizens should either enjoy / embrace that, or move to a country that loves giant government and few rights instead. Hand-outs and welfare are not "rights" lol.

What's funny is that the constitution even allows for more socialist methods from state to state, like mini countries.

You would only need to move from Montana to CA or NYC or IL to get your socialism /communism.

But progressives don't like that idea. They love to make other people do things much much more, than simply having what they like themselves.

originally posted by: WeAreAWAKE


Liberals will desire for a utopia is changing everything we are. Remove how we naturally label others and group others. Change that we get angry and sometimes violent, etc. In short...a utopian society is not where we are. Just because we can do bits and pieces of it when forced to do so...forcing a dog not to bark doesn't make it better, it changes what it is and forces it to repress itself. Yes...an annoying thing, but still what it is.

I am against all that. I don't want dogs that don't bark. I don't want lions that don't kill, snakes that don't bite nor monkeys that don't fling their poo. I don't want to dress them up in a tux and have them chit-chat about current events while sipping wine. That is not what they are and they are beautiful AS they are. So are we. We have our faults, we have a number of things that would be nice to change and maybe they will. But until they change naturally...forcing such changes are not respecting ourselves and basking in the beauty of humans any more than forcing a change in our society is healthy for our country.

When we are ready to evolve further...we will. Liberals want to force it and look where we are. We aren't better off as a whole and sometimes we are just more, and more depressed and pissed off about not being allowed to speak certain words, drink certain drinks, drive certain cars or carry certain guns. Freedom includes freedom to be oneself...and even to be an ass.

Unfortunately, your Statement too, has fallen upon deaf ears.