Oregon Rancher’s Body Returned To The Family In Shocking Condition

a reply to: Stormdancer777

Yea I saw them on the video Spy provided. So this leaves questions about the actual proof about the condition of the corps

originally posted by: ReadLeader
a reply to: spy66

Thanks Spy; see them now- wonder why the official release was B&W? scratch head.. anyway; is it not proper, tactically to
N O T presume the subject is neutralized immediately? Is this not the same tactical maneuvers that were seen in the San Bernardino shooting? Keeping sites on the subject(s) until the threat absolutely is no longer?

Not arguing, just comparing apples to apples, ty!

That Depends on the Federals objective to resolve this event.

IF this was a execution this was done by the book. But if it was a intent to do a peacefully apprihention. They failed miserably at that....why do the head shoot?

After he was brought Down he was still alive. You can see his right arm move. Then one of the agents aimes his weapon at him again. I cant tell if he is shooting. I cant see if the front sight is moving from the agle this is viewd from.

The reason i beleive moste People agree With what the authority did her is because, of how the cops always seam to get away With the same thing, With the same arguments all the time these days. It seams to be a accepted norm by the Public.

This trend is more dangures to the Public than they seam to imagine. Because if you make one mistake With these people, Your dead.


Maybe they should start to teach surrendering skills in School, just in case one should be so unlucky to be cought in a situation like this in the future. Just maybe it would save his/her life....

So what's the latest story on the crooks who killed Finicum?
Any details of the autopsy?
I think the originally footage is enough for the Finicum's family to sue these crooks for murder... a autopsy report would be secondary.

a reply to: spy66

I can't make any statements based upon being an expert in any law enforcement procedures but I can say tactics have been amped-up to military-type war scenarios which many of us in the U.S. find shocking and disturbing. I still have peace officers in my town, and though they do have some upgraded technological equipment, they are professional and many of them are very well-liked.

I was listening to some of this interview last night. It's slow going but informative. The text is informative as well. Apparently, road blocks are a no no these days (especially on the other side of a blind curve) and are considered to be deadly force in and of themselves.

This article, with the active audio so you can listen to the interview, is online at the Oath Keepers national website > Here <


_________________
Stewart Rhodes interviews Oath Keeper SWAT Officer About the LaVoy Finicum Shooting


In this audio Interview Stewart Rhodes interviews Greg McWhirter, an Oath Keeper SWAT officer, about the road block and tactics used on LaVoy Finicum and the rest of the Citizens for Constitutional Freedom on that fateful night last Tuesday, January 26, 2016. Greg gives us his expert insight into why most police departments across the country no longer use road blocks, as was used in Oregon this last week that ended with such needless bloodshed.
Greg and Stewart discuss how this barricade/roadblock was placed after a curve, which did not afford Lavoy ample time to see the barricade and stop his vehicle. Greg also covers exactly why barricading/use of roadblocks is considered deadly force and inherently dangerous and life-threatening, and why most jurisdictions in the United States considers them antiquated, and have gotten away from using them.
They also discuss the shooting itself, in detail.
Greg McWhirter has 11 years experience with the Marion County Sheriffs Office (MCSO)in Indianapolis, Indiana. He spent seven years as investigator and four years on the MCSO tactical team. He is also an Indiana Law Enforcement Academy certified instructor.


(snip)
Please listen to the interview and read important details at our website:
www.oathkeepers.org...

originally posted by: Informer1958
a reply to: elementalgrove

I agree, this is insane.

We The People want accountability, right now.

There can be no accounting for outright malicious murder period

a reply to: tweetie


This person did a good job explaining everything. What he is basically saying is that this event was a major screw up....probably do to political pressure (the Governor).

It didnt seam to me that all the troopers had proper training in how to tacle a roadblock. The once who had proper training went for cover. The one that moved onto the subject alone without cover was either not properly trained or he was FBI HRT trained.

In HRT training we are thought to confront leathal suspect With speed and agression, to overwhelm them. But never alone like this agent did on his own. He went out and confronted the suspect on his own, without protection or support. The rest of the team were still taking cover....when he went all rambo on the subject. That is dumbest move i have seen, and i have mentioned it before.

Getting People to see this point of view...is not easy. But this X SWAT made some very good Points and People should take their time to listen to it. And he sure does understand that this was a major screw up from the beginning.

I also think some of the information he mentioned collabirate With the person Judge Darby spoke to on the phone, about the Governor being in charge asking for this to be resolved.

I'm glad that some of you are thinking critically about this and not just blindly following someone with zero credibility. The source for this is beyond nutter butter crazy.

Timeline is wrong
Facts don't add up

This is classic misinformation. People with an agenda are attempting to concoct stories to incite violence while there is still national exposure to this story. I'm not implicating the OP or anyone here because they are just disseminating a report.

Sources sources sources

I have many questions that would call the legitimacy of this report into question.

The most obvious for me is, why would the authorities say he was shot 3 times knowing that the body is going to have to be released? Knowing there would be an independent review and probably a se on autopsy.

The cost benefit ratio does not make sense for authorities to risk their entire "official narrative" for something that would be insignificant considering they could have come out and said that several officers fired when LaVoy Finicum reached for a weapon and he was hit several times.

What different would it make from the official standpoint. Not much.

a reply to: spy66

Weird. You seem to be saying that FBI HRT training is counter to "proper" training. Then go on to talk about how what he did isn't in line with HRT training.

Which is it?

originally posted by: beyondtruth
People with an agenda are attempting to concoct stories to incite violence while there is still national exposure to this story.

Very true, like the gun he had on him was stolen, or that he was dragged from the car, was on his knees with hands on top of his head, then he was shot.

One wonders why they make up such silly stories.

originally posted by: Shamrock6
a reply to: spy66

Weird. You seem to be saying that FBI HRT training is counter to "proper" training. Then go on to talk about how what he did isn't in line with HRT training.

Which is it?

No, i have always said the FBI are very well trained...that is why this event suprises me. Why would they be so agressive towards a person who is walking out into the open With his armes up?

But the argument culd be political pressure to get this resolved ASAP. This means poor time to plan and prepare.

There are many arguments why the agent moved out alone. I have also mentioned that earlier. FBI HRT are trained to handle this type of situation as a FBI HRT team. Not With troopers who only have basic training.

The troopers dont know how the FBI agent is going to react to the situation, because they dont have the same Level of training. And the FBI and the troopers are not worked in as a team. That is why he probably ended up moving on the subject on his own. That makes him a weak link if the subject makes a move for his weapon.

originally posted by: spy66

originally posted by: Shamrock6
a reply to: spy66

Weird. You seem to be saying that FBI HRT training is counter to "proper" training. Then go on to talk about how what he did isn't in line with HRT training.

Which is it?

No, i have always said the FBI are very well trained...that is why this event suprises me. Why would they be so agressive towards a person who is walking out into the open With his armes up?

But the argument culd be political pressure to get this resolved ASAP. This means poor time to plan and prepare.

There are many arguments why the agent moved out alone. I have also mentioned that earlier. FBI HRT are trained to handle this type of situation as a FBI HRT team. Not With troopers who only have basic training.

The troopers dont know how the FBI agent is going to react to the situation, because they dont have the same Level of training. And the FBI and the troopers are not worked in as a team. That is why he probably ended up moving on the subject on his own. That makes him a weak link if the subject makes a move for his weapon.

All the statements that I have seen all have the Oregon State Police as the agency who engaged gunfire and shot Finicum, not FBI.

originally posted by: beyondtruth

originally posted by: spy66

originally posted by: Shamrock6
a reply to: spy66

Weird. You seem to be saying that FBI HRT training is counter to "proper" training. Then go on to talk about how what he did isn't in line with HRT training.

Which is it?

No, i have always said the FBI are very well trained...that is why this event suprises me. Why would they be so agressive towards a person who is walking out into the open With his armes up?

But the argument culd be political pressure to get this resolved ASAP. This means poor time to plan and prepare.

There are many arguments why the agent moved out alone. I have also mentioned that earlier. FBI HRT are trained to handle this type of situation as a FBI HRT team. Not With troopers who only have basic training.

The troopers dont know how the FBI agent is going to react to the situation, because they dont have the same Level of training. And the FBI and the troopers are not worked in as a team. That is why he probably ended up moving on the subject on his own. That makes him a weak link if the subject makes a move for his weapon.

All the statements that I have seen all have the Oregon State Police as the agency who engaged gunfire and shot Finicum, not FBI.

That is probably because this is a ongoing investigation. Who really did what and where have not yet been properly maped.

But if you observe their gear/kit (helmet). It seams there is mix on how these People are dressed up. The troopers would be issued the same kit. But they are not all the same.

I could be wrong but that is my Guess.

a reply to: spy66

That is probably because this is a ongoing investigation. Who really did what and where have not yet been properly maped.

But if you observe their gear/kit (helmet). It seams there is mix on how these People are dressed up. The troopers would be issued the same kit. But they are not all the same.

I could be wrong but that is my Guess.

I can appreciate that there are still details that are unknown or will remained classified until the investigation is complete, however the fact that OSP was the one that shot Finicum was one of the first things released as part of initial statement. If only three shots were fired at Finicum after he exited the vehicle I think it's pretty safe to say the person who fired those shots knows which agency he works for.

Just saying. Also I have experience in this area and can tell you that not everyone would be wearing the same gear just based on the agency they work for. Most state agencies have a plethora of specialty units that have their own speciality gear and sometimes they wear entirely different uniforms. Also there could be undercover/task force officers on hand, there are many variables as to why they don't all match gear and uniform.

If i am not mistaken. It looks like the agent who approached from behind might be using a Taser and not a Gun.

The reason for this is that he holds his right hand on his holstered weapon. Cops usually have their Taser on the opposit side of their Gun. This guy is using his left hand to apply the Taser, and have his right hand ready on the holstered weapon. This means the cop from behind didnt kill the subject. The agent in front of the suspect did.

originally posted by: spy66
If i am not mistaken. It looks like the agent who approached from behind might be using a Taser and not a Gun.

The reason for this is that he holds his right hand on his holstered weapon. Cops usually have their Taser on the opposit side of their Gun. This guy is using his left hand to apply the Taser, and have his right hand ready on the holstered weapon. This means the cop from behind didnt kill the subject. The agent in front of the suspect did.

That is entirely possible and that is one conclusion I thought about but after further analysis there are a few things that lead me to believe it was a handgun and not a tazer. It appears that he fires nearly an entire magazine at Finicum and his reaching to his back with his right hand is him reaching for a new magazine from his tactical belt.

a reply to: spy66

In the FBI report, Special Agent Bretzing stated they had spikes across the road but somehow LaVoy missed them. It wasn't stated where the spikes were placed, I don't think. I don't know if they can be seen in the FBI video. Someone in one of these threads posted a photo of the new types of spikes used to stop a fleeing vehicle. The former SWAT officer talks about spikes in the interview with Rhodes and how effective they are at stopping a vehicle but I didn't listen to the whole interview so I don't know what else was said.

I would gather those officers following LaVoy as he fled in his truck from the first stop and those around the bend at the road block were pretty darned surprised when the spikes didn't stop LaVoy but, like I said, I don't know where they were placed which could make my soon to be asked question moot. If they worked, LaVoy would've been surrounded and things would have proceeded from there. Perhaps the outcome would have been different, perhaps not.

Side note: I am convinced LaVoy was well aware of the warnings he received from Oathkeepers NOT to put any women and children in danger because of the serious potential for another Waco scenario happening at the refuge so that was always in the back of his mind which was evidenced (to me) by him (and Ryan Payne) yelling to officers there were women in the truck more than once.

How much do you think their plans were thrown off when the spikes did not stop the truck?

Shawna thought LaVoy was trying to go around the road block (which was obviously futile because of how deep the snow bank was) because he was still determined to go see the Sheriff. That officer crouched behind the law enforcement vehicle miscalculated what LaVoy was going to do and dove the wrong way.

Anyway, back to my question above, what do you think from your perspective?

originally posted by: beyondtruth

originally posted by: spy66
If i am not mistaken. It looks like the agent who approached from behind might be using a Taser and not a Gun.

The reason for this is that he holds his right hand on his holstered weapon. Cops usually have their Taser on the opposit side of their Gun. This guy is using his left hand to apply the Taser, and have his right hand ready on the holstered weapon. This means the cop from behind didnt kill the subject. The agent in front of the suspect did.

That is entirely possible and that is one conclusion I thought about but after further analysis there are a few things that lead me to believe it was a handgun and not a tazer. It appears that he fires nearly an entire magazine at Finicum and his reaching to his back with his right hand is him reaching for a new magazine from his tactical belt.

The problem i have With that is that his front sight dosent move up and Down at all. Which would be very Visual if he shot With one hand and his armed streached so far out.

originally posted by: spy66

originally posted by: beyondtruth

originally posted by: spy66
If i am not mistaken. It looks like the agent who approached from behind might be using a Taser and not a Gun.

The reason for this is that he holds his right hand on his holstered weapon. Cops usually have their Taser on the opposit side of their Gun. This guy is using his left hand to apply the Taser, and have his right hand ready on the holstered weapon. This means the cop from behind didnt kill the subject. The agent in front of the suspect did.

That is entirely possible and that is one conclusion I thought about but after further analysis there are a few things that lead me to believe it was a handgun and not a tazer. It appears that he fires nearly an entire magazine at Finicum and his reaching to his back with his right hand is him reaching for a new magazine from his tactical belt.

The problem i have With that is that his front sight dosent move up and Down at all. Which would be very Visual if he shot With one hand and his armed streached so far out.

You are correct and I thought about that also. I've watched the zoomed in and there is minimal recoil motion if any. The reason I think it was a pistol and he was the officer that shot is for a few reasons. First is the direction that Finicum falls. If you watch the video he slumps toward the road with such force it appears he was shot not from the roadside but instead from the snowbank.

Also if you watch from the moment when the officer appears out of the snowbank and to the moment Finicum collapses, watch the officers standing behind the roadblock. The one officer that is not behind cover immediately dashes behind cover in the trajectory of the officer pointing the pistol/tazer. That tells me that bullets were flying in the direction of the officers behind the police vehicles at the road block.

Now if we want to discuss a more sinister version of my analysis I think there is a small possibility that the officer actually was holding a tazer toward Finicum "for show" so to speak so the cameras would show an effort to use non lethal force when really Finicum was put down by a high powered rifle possibly a sniper from the snowbank in the same trajectory as the officer with the tazer.

What are your thoughts about that

a reply to: beyondtruth

I brought up this same issue with you as you know. The officer's left arm and hand in the video look ridiculously elongated including the weapon, while he's carrying it as he runs forward, then pointing it and after he brings it down, and at times doesn't look at all like a gun in his hand which is what caused me to ask you about it. It's strange. I wondered, too, if he was one of those guys who can brace a longer gun against his arm and only use one arm and hand to hold and shoot it, then I wondered about a taser. Weird!

a reply to: spy66

I'm well aware of what HRT is trained for, thanks. I just don't understand your comments. According to you, he's either a statie that's improperly trained in setting a roadblock, or he's HRT and acted against his training. Because his training is element oriented, not individual oriented.

Just seem kind of all over the map with comments, and then slap a stamp on it declaring the individual is HRT.

*shrug*