If God Gave Us Free-will, Why do Religions try to take it away?

a reply to: TerryMcGuire

Good and Evil are absolutes and the conceptual line between them is fractured, right there where one becomes another. Being inspired of God and being inspired of the devil, one or the other.

Can you proved and example of absolute "Good" and absolute "Evil"? Didn't God inspire the Devil?

For me, what is not good might be bad, but it also might not be 'as good' or for that matter even better.
I find that believing something to be evil sets up the need to judge what is good and what is evil. But if there is no evil, only good and not so good, then there is no need to judge, just to compare and choose which is better.

Someone is still judging "good" and "not so good" and "worse".

If God Gave Us Free-will, Why do Religions try to take it away?

This is one of my deepest beliefs - all Christians - aka humans, do not think alike.

All Catholics, all Baptists, all Lutherans, all Episcopalians, all Presbyterians, etc... none of us are identical because God did not create us to be computers or robots.

He gave us the greatest gift of existence; individuality. The path we choose is of our own free will... and from there, we also set forth on the longest trod imaginable.

Human existence is not the here-all, see-all, do-all for our species.
This is our nursery... where it all begins.

...

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

When can rape be good?

Rape occurs in nature regularly. Ever seen "duck rape".

When can pure charity be evil?

When it robs people of their dignity.

They're independent of each other, completely.

Nope. They're (good and evil) completely dependent on each other.

a reply to: Baddogma

Thanks. To be fair, the literal definition of "Muslim" is "one who submits (to God)". But the actual meaning in English would probably be closer to "one who voluntarily chooses to be God's servant". So our perspective is probably a bit different from yours lol. No worries though. I personally don't care what path a person walks, as long as they do no harm. The rest isn't my business.

Though for the record, do you believe that a "conscience" is real? Or a "mother's intuition", "epiphanies", and the such? We would say they are direct warnings and guidance from our Creator and/or His Angels, so it's not like they're hiding their intentions or expectations.

Also, wouldn't that "bratty" reply imply pride?

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

When can rape be good?

Rape occurs in nature regularly. Ever seen "duck rape".

When can pure charity be evil?

When it robs people of their dignity.

They're independent of each other, completely.

Nope. They're (good and evil) completely dependent on each other.

I didn't ask if it happens in Nature regularly or not.
I said when can it be defined as a good thing.

Pure charity doesn't rob people of their dignity either, that's ridiculous.

No, they're completely separate concepts.

a reply to: windword

Can you proved and example of absolute "Good" and absolute "Evil"? Didn't God inspire the Devil?
No, I cannot. I am not absolute and the only way in which I could provide an answer would be to make one up. That would not be absolute as it came from my non-absolute mind.

And I do not think that God inspired the Devil. And while I do hold to a higher sense of God, I see no reason to include a sense of the Devil to go with it.

Someone is still judging "good" and "not so good" and "worse".

I make a distinction here between judging and comparing. For me, judging is dividing, it is an 'either/or evaluation. Good or evil. It is condemning.

Comparing though need not be absolute and is a reasoned evaluation of of the successful prospects of one choice over another.

The metaphor of partaking the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is when the fruit is eaten judgement of good and evil enters.None choose to do good and evil they are only acting upon their nature and character. Many,many times what is judged as detrimental(evil turns out to be beneficial (good).It is the great dichotomy of the physical realm.From it’s very core things die to live.It was how the cosmos was created.

Judging good and evil as an either or is a futile game because it is all a perception.Chemo therapy can kill cancer cells and save the host or it can kill the host.The list goes on and on.The disconnect is judging in black and white the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.None know even remotely what the end game of life is.

The reality is this physical universe is in a state of entropy(moving from order to chaos).That in effect makes all action events move from good to evil.Mans perception of this entropy is on the micro scale(their personal perception).It is impossible to know what is happening at the macro level and foolishness to judge life from the micro.

Religion tries to solve this dilemma by the doctrines of men however it is unsolvable by belief through faith because the belief in religious doctrines are the partaking of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil..i.e..to become as God and have a will free of cause.The religious perceive this as the cause of the disease(free will)…. and the cure(free will)!!!

a reply to: TerryMcGuire

Can you proved and example of absolute "Good" and absolute "Evil"? Didn't God inspire the Devil?
No, I cannot. I am not absolute and the only way in which I could provide an answer would be to make one up. That would not be absolute as it came from my non-absolute mind.

Then why do think that absolute "good" and "evil" even exist? Even the biblical God see things as "good" and "evil" doesn't he?

I make a distinction here between judging and comparing. For me, judging is dividing, it is an 'either/or evaluation. Good or evil. It is condemning.

No. Good, not so good, better, best, bad, worst, evil......are all just positions on a comparison scale.

a reply to: wisvol

I never mentioned unwanted charity.

Raping a paedophile would be considered an eye for an eye, but it wouldn't be labelled good.
Not in the mind of anyone normal anyways.


The opposite of good is bad, not evil.

That scale is best-better-good-bad-worse-worst...
Evil need not exist for that scale to be true.

Thus, good can exist without evil.

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

I didn't ask if it happens in Nature regularly or not.
I said when can it be defined as a good thing.

Yes! It can be defined as a "good" thing in nature.

Pure charity doesn't rob people of their dignity either, that's ridiculous.

What is "pure charity"? Is it like "absolute good"? I have yet to see "pure charity".

No, they're completely separate concepts.

Good and Evil are two ends of the same spectrum.

a reply to: windword

Then why do think that absolute "good" and "evil" even exist? Even the biblical God see things as "good" and "evil" doesn't he?

I do not think that. As I suggested earlier, to me, good is what facilitates a more successful out come in the survival of the individual, of the species. This is relative to time and relative to place.

And I do not know about the biblical God. I know that the Bible sees things as good and evil and attributes this notion to God. I however, do not hold to that understanding of things.

No. Good, not so good, better, best, bad, worst, evil......are all just positions on a comparison scale.

I see that you think this. I am saying that the comparison scale I use is exactly the same as the one you mention, except that I do not see the 'evil' as being part of it. Again, all of those points can be relative to one another while the ' evil ' classification is opposed to all the others.

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

That scale is best-better-good-bad-worse-worst...
Evil need not exist for that scale to be true.

So black doesn't exist on your scale. Just white and shades of grey?

a reply to: TerryMcGuire

I see that you think this. I am saying that the comparison scale I use is exactly the same as the one you mention, except that I do not see the 'evil' as being part of it.

So then, "What IS evil"? Does evil exist, in your opinion?

a reply to: enlightenedservant

I was being a tad flip with "sycophant" ... forgive me. I actually understand a tad more about Islam than most outside Westerners, but onward.

Good points... my own take is that we ARE born with an inherent urge to look for a "father figure" or presence behind the scenes, the part of our physical brain searching for some god, and that impulse is within my core being, too, but I assert that that is the end of it... whether that urge is a created hint of the creator or a fluke of a somehow expedient evolution, I've no clue, but a "THANKS for the ride and neat simulation, I'll try to help the other creations" seems sufficient from my own perspective.

But perhaps I was created as a defective doubter of constructs I see as man made control mechanisms, and if I'm mistaken, then I throw up my hands and condemn myself to whatever punishment He deems suitable as it's the way He made me and what can I do with that?

But I sometimes envy folks who were born without that doubt... seems comfy.

eta: and wanted to add before I was distracted in the real world, that if we are supposed to worship the big guy in a specific manner, then why aren't we born with the info in our core make-up? I get the urge is there, but why not the specifics, if they are so important? THAT seems like a mind game... and yeah, bratty is certainly ego oriented

Each version of the bible sound ridiculous because none of them are originals. They merely are copies of copies of copies (etc.) of the original.
Yes, hell may or may not exist but that doesn't mean you're predestined to go there because of a bad deed. Heck, hell might be here on earth itself when we think about the killings that go unjustified. Or the robbery of spirits so preachers can profit off them with money and spirit.

The 10 commandments.
1.) Don't have any gods before YOU.
2.) Don't make idols because you lose yourself, hence commandment 1
3.) You shouldn't take your name in vain.
4.) Remeber the sabbath day (6th or 7th chakra) and keep it holy (away from impure thoughts)
5.) You honor your father (male energy carnal self) with your mother (female energy spirit) in balancing them both.
6.) Do not murder your soul
7.) Dont think about sex, abstain from sexual depravity. Your life force is within that powerful seed called.. S. Or if you're a female.. O.
you'll see a grand difference and clarity of life if you do this for three days.. Or more. (But that's up to you)
8.) Do not steal souls. Stealing from a person (money, phone, car) are replaceable. The soul isn't.
9.) Barely false witness against your neighbor.. Against is your soul. Have you ever felt proud you you lies to someone who believed you? Or did you feel guilty because your soul knew what you did/say?
10.) Do not covet. Easy, don't think about what others have, instead, change whatever you have and mold it into something better. If could be money, love, education, anything. Never ever be depressed because someone has something you don't. Eventually you'll soon see it wasn't worth it and you'll be glad you never got it.

If we talk about carnal things which can replace then we are not talking about God. God is a spirit. He gave us all a soul. So if we break any of these ETENAL commandments.. We don't go to hell.. Hell just consumes our soul in turn, we will never seek eternal peace. (Not referring to heaven or hell but peace in etenal self.)

"If God Gave Us Free-will, Why do Religions try to take it away?"

...false sense of entitlement...

Å99

But is a cure for cancer a good thing in God''s eyes? Did God want us to find cures for illnesses/diseases or is it God's will that the time for that person's life to finish is when they become ill. Therefore some could say intervening is evil and not good. Jehovah's witnesses wouldnt view a blood transfusion as a good thing but a bad thing whereas others would see it as a good thing. Good and evil mean different things to different people.a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

Because you sell your soul to satan, but the church makes you buy it. Donate a nice chunk of change and you can pretty much get away with anything.
If you just attend but don't donate your gonna be emotionally manipulated until you break.
Then if you leave you lose all your friends, so you just ignore the hypocrisy until you snap.
Then they convert somebody else. A sucker is born every minute.

a reply to: windword

Rape occurs in nature regularly. Ever seen "duck rape".

There is a problem with this and using it to define good and evil. Animals are incapable of making those judgments. That is unique to humanity. Religiously speaking, this goes back to the Apple story however you want to understand it. We gained the knowledge of good and evil or the ability to discern and make those value judgments.

To the ducks, there is only the need to procreate and the drive to be assuaged. It is pure instinct. They are not expected to control those urges. Being human, we are.