If God Gave Us Free-will, Why do Religions try to take it away?

a reply to: ketsuko

The first fisherman did a good thing, but the second fisherman might be judged to have done better.

What about the fisherman who didn't go out that day? Did he do bad?

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

So the idea that good couldn't exist without evil is what I like to call a Pulled Out of Thin Air Fallacy.

a dramatic and satirical example, but still an example. there are people who do their best precisely because they have seen what society could become otherwise. sometimes it takes the shock of realizing how much worse things could be before you appreciate how much you already have and why its worth fighting for.

a reply to: Sharted

By "religions" I assume you meant "Abrahamic religions". There are many religions that don't force you to behave a certain way. Unfortunately we are dominated in this world by three of them that DO do this so our perceptions of religion in total is warped. And I'm saying all of this as an agnostic.

a reply to: windword

When I go fishing and don't catch anything, yep. I've done bad. And just like with good, there are different degrees and kinds of bad.

a reply to: ketsuko

Then one depends upon the other, comparison wise. Wouldn't you agree?

a reply to: windword

I think you'll find that I am not disagreeing with you in this thread.

So long as people are capable of making value judgments comparing one person's actions against another's, you will end up with someone coming up with a judgment of evil (or whatever they call it).

This is me quoting an earlier post just for reference.

originally posted by: Prezbo369

originally posted by: enlightenedservant
Looking at it this way, it would also make sense why the generally "kind" AI/souls that don't accept or believe in the higher dimensional beings wouldn't be allowed in, either. Would you allow a person in your house or around your family if they refused to accept the rules of your house? Would you let someone near your children if he/she was going to teach your child to disrespect & disobey you?

This is what religion can do to person......good people wouldn't necessarily 'teach your child to disrespect & disobey you' and while they might not engage in your ceremonies and practices or harbor the same superstitions, they wouldn't necessarily affect them either.

LOL Read it in context. I'm saying that from that perspective, it makes sense that God and His Angels wouldn't allow people into Heaven if those people disrespect & disobey God & His Angels. It wouldn't matter if the people are generally considered "kind"; if they're still going to disobey the leaders & founders of that dimension, they wouldn't be allowed. Then I gave 2 earthly examples to get the point across.

originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

So the idea that good couldn't exist without evil is what I like to call a Pulled Out of Thin Air Fallacy.

Au contraire, me thinks. The only reason something is deemed "good" is because it isn't "bad", or worse "evil". It's all just different positions on the same line.

If my football teams wins tomorrow night it will be a good thing...
If we lose it won't be evil.



Better yet there is no cure for Cancer...
That's "normal" as the OP put it...

A cure for cancer is a good thing...
If we never find a cure that's not really "evil", it's just not good.
Good exists without evil.

So, evil is independent of good? How can that be? Separate universes, one good and one evil that have merged?

a reply to: enlightenedservant

Interesting reduction ... and love your mind and posts, btw...

but my own response to your religious 'AI testing scenario' would be a bratty "if I'm thrust into a simulation with only my core inclinations, and one where the designer hides his expectations behind pretense and very real situational doubt and equally resonant inclinations towards different scenarios, then I'd rather not be a quivering sycophant giving my attention to some being that I can't hope to understand on it's face value in order to spend eternity in some restricted country club.

But that's me... and I'm thus headed for the trash bin... happens.

Nobody said this universe is fair... but a God that runs egocentric mind games can not count upon my support.

Religion hasn't taken away my free will.

It has offered up choices.

I'm not forced not to consume swine meat...
I can go and have a bacon sandwich right now if I choose to...

I'm not forced to pray to the east on my knees...
I can do it facing west in handstand position of I like...

I make these choices in line with my Faith for the full exposure to God's mercy and guidance.



Even the obligations of Islam are put across as recommendations, not dictation.
We choose our own path.

I think the confusion is that some are treating the issue as if good and evil are sort of like Newton's Law - For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Instead, they want to say, For every good, there is an equal and opposite evil.

Well that isn't true. There very much can be good independent of evil and vice versa.

However, when we say that one cannot exist without the other, it is in simple recognition of the fact that we exist as beings capable of making value judgments and as such, we cannot make the value judgment of good or even recognize such a state without being likewise able to recognize that which is not good, or even evil.

And for those of faith, it goes deeper. There are objective truths and objective standards of good, but I don't think that's necessarily an argument for this thread. It is enough to recognize why good and evil exist and will exist for humans. We will insist on making value judgment and unless we figure out how to change that intrinsic part of our nature, good and evil are not going away anytime soon.

originally posted by: windword

originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

So the idea that good couldn't exist without evil is what I like to call a Pulled Out of Thin Air Fallacy.

Au contraire, me thinks. The only reason something is deemed "good" is because it isn't "bad", or worse "evil". It's all just different positions on the same line.

If my football teams wins tomorrow night it will be a good thing...
If we lose it won't be evil.



Better yet there is no cure for Cancer...
That's "normal" as the OP put it...

A cure for cancer is a good thing...
If we never find a cure that's not really "evil", it's just not good.
Good exists without evil.

So, evil is independent of good? How can that be? Separate universes, one good and one evil that have merged?

I've given 3 firm examples of goodness without even the need for the concept of evil.
The concept of good it's paramount to the examples because of the feeling of goodness people get when they do good things.
So of course they're independent.


Besides which good and evil do exist...
So it's a moot discussion.

a reply to: windword

I think that good needs comparison. I compare it to better and worse, not evil. For me, evil is an outmoded concept derived from the misconception of a devil. I think of good and bad as relative, relative to our human situations and survival techniques. Good and Evil are absolutes and the conceptual line between them is fractured, right there where one becomes another. Being inspired of God and being inspired of the devil, one or the other.

For me, what is not good might be bad, but it also might not be 'as good' or for that matter even better.
I find that believing something to be evil sets up the need to judge what is good and what is evil. But if there is no evil, only good and not so good, then there is no need to judge, just to compare and choose which is better.

originally posted by: ketsuko
I think the confusion is that some are treating the issue as if good and evil are sort of like Newton's Law - For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Instead, they want to say, For every good, there is an equal and opposite evil.

Well that isn't true. There very much can be good independent of evil and vice versa.

However, when we say that one cannot exist without the other, it is in simple recognition of the fact that we exist as beings capable of making value judgments and as such, we cannot make the value judgment of good or even recognize such a state without being likewise able to recognize that which is not good, or even evil.

And for those of faith, it goes deeper. There are objective truths and objective standards of good, but I don't think that's necessarily an argument for this thread. It is enough to recognize why good and evil exist and will exist for humans. We will insist on making value judgment and unless we figure out how to change that intrinsic part of our nature, good and evil are not going away anytime soon.

every good can be an evil in the right context, and every evil a good.

originally posted by: TerryMcGuire
a reply to: windword

I think that good needs comparison. I compare it to better and worse, not evil. For me, evil is an outmoded concept derived from the misconception of a devil. I think of good and bad as relative, relative to our human situations and survival techniques. Good and Evil are absolutes and the conceptual line between them is fractured, right there where one becomes another. Being inspired of God and being inspired of the devil, one or the other.

For me, what is not good might be bad, but it also might not be 'as good' or for that matter even better.
I find that believing something to be evil sets up the need to judge what is good and what is evil. But if there is no evil, only good and not so good, then there is no need to judge, just to compare and choose which is better.

Exactly.

originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs

originally posted by: windword

originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

So the idea that good couldn't exist without evil is what I like to call a Pulled Out of Thin Air Fallacy.

Au contraire, me thinks. The only reason something is deemed "good" is because it isn't "bad", or worse "evil". It's all just different positions on the same line.

If my football teams wins tomorrow night it will be a good thing...
If we lose it won't be evil.



Better yet there is no cure for Cancer...
That's "normal" as the OP put it...

A cure for cancer is a good thing...
If we never find a cure that's not really "evil", it's just not good.
Good exists without evil.

So, evil is independent of good? How can that be? Separate universes, one good and one evil that have merged?

I've given 3 firm examples of goodness without even the need for the concept of evil.
The concept of good it's paramount to the examples because of the feeling of goodness people get when they do good things.
So of course they're independent.


Besides which good and evil do exist...
So it's a moot discussion.

if god were to speak to you in a dream and command that you slay your children, would you do it?

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: ketsuko
I think the confusion is that some are treating the issue as if good and evil are sort of like Newton's Law - For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Instead, they want to say, For every good, there is an equal and opposite evil.

Well that isn't true. There very much can be good independent of evil and vice versa.

However, when we say that one cannot exist without the other, it is in simple recognition of the fact that we exist as beings capable of making value judgments and as such, we cannot make the value judgment of good or even recognize such a state without being likewise able to recognize that which is not good, or even evil.

And for those of faith, it goes deeper. There are objective truths and objective standards of good, but I don't think that's necessarily an argument for this thread. It is enough to recognize why good and evil exist and will exist for humans. We will insist on making value judgment and unless we figure out how to change that intrinsic part of our nature, good and evil are not going away anytime soon.

every good can be an evil in the right context, and every evil a good.

When can rape be good?

When can pure charity be evil?

They're independent of each other, completely.

a reply to: TzarChasm

I'm not so sure about that. There are some very depraved individuals in society.

originally posted by: TzarChasm


every good can be an evil in the right context, and every evil a good.

How very true.

Thus the recommendation to not eat the fruit of the tree of science of good and evil.

Yet free will was demonstrated in that choosing what we view as good or evil is more important to A&E than not toiling and not suffering birth pains. Also, snakes with limbs.

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs

originally posted by: windword

originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

So the idea that good couldn't exist without evil is what I like to call a Pulled Out of Thin Air Fallacy.

Au contraire, me thinks. The only reason something is deemed "good" is because it isn't "bad", or worse "evil". It's all just different positions on the same line.

If my football teams wins tomorrow night it will be a good thing...
If we lose it won't be evil.



Better yet there is no cure for Cancer...
That's "normal" as the OP put it...

A cure for cancer is a good thing...
If we never find a cure that's not really "evil", it's just not good.
Good exists without evil.

So, evil is independent of good? How can that be? Separate universes, one good and one evil that have merged?

I've given 3 firm examples of goodness without even the need for the concept of evil.
The concept of good it's paramount to the examples because of the feeling of goodness people get when they do good things.
So of course they're independent.


Besides which good and evil do exist...
So it's a moot discussion.

if god were to speak to you in a dream and command that you slay your children, would you do it?

I don't know if I would.