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One question about LaVoy Finicum shooting

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posted on Jan, 30 2016 @ 12:51 PM
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a reply to: schuyler

That would be a stretch of the definition of suicidal. Willing to die for a cause is not a suicidal statement.




posted on Jan, 30 2016 @ 12:59 PM
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originally posted by: Kali74
Someone of the bunch had to not surrender, had to be willing to die and he was zealot enough to do it. It just took him a few seconds to override his survival instinct. They're all batsht crazy but if the "movement" wasn't going to down in a blaze of jokes... one of them had to be willing to die.


Isn't it ironic that progressives think they have the moral high ground, when in reality they are just as flawed as the ones they demonize?



posted on Jan, 30 2016 @ 01:23 PM
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originally posted by: eNumbra

originally posted by: Rezlooper
Why was there an Oregon state trooper hiding that far up in the trees away from the road.


If you were using your car as a road block, would you want to be in or near it?


So, there were no officers behind their vehicles in the road block? They all went and hid up in the woods?



posted on Jan, 30 2016 @ 01:26 PM
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originally posted by: schuyler
If he'd kept his hands up he would have been okay, but he didn't. He went for his pockets BEFORE he was shot. You can see this clearly in a slow-motion shot of the video. The Oregonian newspaper posted this yesterday. Look at the situation:

1. He avowed never to be taken alive.
2. He was known to be armed at all times.
3. He ran from the first stop.
4. He tried to run the roadblock and got stuck, nearly hitting one deputy.
5. He jumped from the truck and had his hands up (actually, out) initially.
6. He brought his hands in to his pockets.
7. That's when he was shot.

The guy had a death wish, and he got his wish.

If he did not want to get shot what he should have done is stay in the truck with his hands clearly visible on the steering wheel and await instructions. This is what anyone should do when they are stopped. He chose to leave the truck. OK. Then he ought to have held his hands high in the air and stop, then await instructions. He didn't do that.

Even the so-called eye witnesses got this wrong. One guy driving a jeep was stopped with the truck (first stop) and claimed Finicum "charged the officers," but it is clear from the video that the jeep was so far back from the second stop that he couldn't see anything. The second witness, an 18 year old girl, said she saw Finicum get shot and that here were at least 100 bullets fired 'Bonnie & Clyde" style at the truck. Yet she also reported she was on the floorboard of the truck for protection. The two statements contradict each other.

So yes, Finicum DID show hostility both in actions and words. he died because he wanted to. He provoked his own death.


You can't clearly see anything in the video. Looks more like to me that he reacted to either being shot, or shot at. And just because someone talks the tough talk of not being taken alive, doesn't mean its true. If he were going to carry out with his pledge of fighting first, he wouldn't have gotten out with his hands held high... he would have come out guns-a-blazin'



posted on Jan, 30 2016 @ 01:28 PM
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originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: schuyler

That would be a stretch of the definition of suicidal. Willing to die for a cause is not a suicidal statement.


yes, it is. The man said many times that he was willing to die for his cause. Being suicidal for a cause is still being suicidal. You don't have to be despondent to be suicidal. Stupidity will work just fine.


originally posted by: Rezlooper

You can't clearly see anything in the video. Looks more like to me that he reacted to either being shot, or shot at. And just because someone talks the tough talk of not being taken alive, doesn't mean its true. If he were going to carry out with his pledge of fighting first, he wouldn't have gotten out with his hands held high... he would have come out guns-a-blazin'


YOU would do that, perhaps. You can see clearly in the video, but at this point I think people are polarized enough that they will see what they want to see. Nobody's mind will be changed. The fact is the man is dead, no one will be "charged" in his death, and his death will not cause some sort of uprising. The whole thing was a complete failure, as I detailed in depth right here.
edit on 1/30/2016 by schuyler because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 30 2016 @ 01:28 PM
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originally posted by: ReadLeader
a reply to: Rezlooper

He was not prepared, clearly. .. he did not anticipate the road block, acted on emotions ... clearly he was confused and his indecisiveness paved the pathway to his death. He was NOT going to go to jail..

Period..

May he RIP

Eta, regardless he was armed, he blew through roadblocks he attempted to run over a Fed agent. ... he was a threat....


Read, you must be a psychiatrist, you sure are confident about every thought this man made in his final moments.



posted on Jan, 30 2016 @ 01:36 PM
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a reply to: schuyler

That's not true. Risking one's own life for something greater, no matter how stupid, is not "suicide for a cause", whatever that means.



posted on Jan, 30 2016 @ 01:36 PM
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a reply to: Necrobile

Good take on it Nec. He may have been attempting to draw attention away from the truck. We don't know and as you say we are left with pure speculation.
My speculation is that he jumped from the truck so quickly so as to head for the hills, to try and get away.(he had already demonstrated this mindset by pulling away from the first road block). Then he saw the 'post' that LEO had placed out there in the tree line and he turned around and saw the other guy advancing and his rational brain just fried and his 'my gun will save me brain' kicked in automatically and he reached for it.



posted on Jan, 30 2016 @ 01:43 PM
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originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: schuyler

That's not true. Risking one's own life for something greater, no matter how stupid, is not "suicide for a cause", whatever that means.


"Suicide" means intentionally killing yourself. You needn't add any polemics to it. This was "suicide by cop," but it was still intentional. He said he wouldn't be taken alive, and he wasn't. I don't see why this is so confusing or why we must somehow avoid the term "suicide." Adding "for a cause" does not negate the term.



posted on Jan, 30 2016 @ 01:50 PM
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a reply to: schuyler

He didn't intentionally kill himself. He was shot by someone else.

Adding suicide does not make it suicide.
edit on 30-1-2016 by LesMisanthrope because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 30 2016 @ 01:53 PM
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Where are the body cam videos and the video footage from the police vehicles? Those videos would help to clear things up.



posted on Jan, 30 2016 @ 01:55 PM
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originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: schuyler

He didn't intentionally kill himself. He was shot by someone else.

Adding suicide does not make it suicide.


Please, you can't tell me you haven't heard of suicide by cop?

www.suicide.org...

Knowing what he said it's fairly easy to see suicide by cop as one of the possible explanations of that video..



posted on Jan, 30 2016 @ 02:01 PM
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originally posted by: Rezlooper


So, there were no officers behind their vehicles in the road block? They all went and hid up in the woods?


Since you're trying to be a snarky little # instead of answering the question, yes there were. One of them is even nearly hit by Finicum's vehicle at 9:16 in the released footage.

Not to mention having troopers in the woods to the sides of the roadblock is an intelligent tactical choice since Finicum could have decided to run into the woods if the road block should succeed in stopping him. Same reason SWAT teams usually have men at the front AND back doors of a house when they're looking to capture someone.



posted on Jan, 30 2016 @ 02:06 PM
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a reply to: opethPA

I have, and he had plenty of opportunities to commit suicide by cop, but didn't. Suicide is the result of depression, suicidal thoughts, mental disorders, and so on. There is zero indication he wanted to kill himself. Not once did he say "I want to die", "I wish to commit suicide". He wasn't suicidal.



posted on Jan, 30 2016 @ 02:07 PM
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originally posted by: eNumbra

originally posted by: Rezlooper
Why was there an Oregon state trooper hiding that far up in the trees away from the road.


If you were using your car as a road block, would you want to be in or near it?

Apparently near it, since there were cops near their cars.
Or what?
They typically use them for cover in an expected gunfight.

edit on b000000312016-01-30T14:09:02-06:0002America/ChicagoSat, 30 Jan 2016 14:09:02 -0600200000016 by butcherguy because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 30 2016 @ 02:23 PM
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Are we going to have the same conversation a thousand more times with the same obvious shills........
I go with a targeted killing by LEOs of the man who was the most well spoken and therefore dangerous to the PTB.
They wanted to kill this man and they did ........
To me, its an obvious ambush and assassination.
THe law started shooting before Fincum even went around the roadblock......
His daughter was in the truck with another girl.....
since he already knew they were going ti kill him, he got out to draw their fire from the girls and their attention from the truck.....
This was a PlANNED EXECUTION RIGHT FROM THE TIP OF OBAMAS PEN....
unless THE PEOPLE STAND TOGETHER THE NAZIS WILL TAKE US DOWN ONE BY ONE.......



posted on Jan, 30 2016 @ 02:27 PM
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originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: opethPA

I have, and he had plenty of opportunities to commit suicide by cop, but didn't. Suicide is the result of depression, suicidal thoughts, mental disorders, and so on. There is zero indication he wanted to kill himself. Not once did he say "I want to die", "I wish to commit suicide". He wasn't suicidal.


We're dealing with semantics here. Saying, "I will never be taken alive" and then running out in front of police and saying, "Go ahead and shoot me." (This according to his own eye witness.) is what he did. To me, that's suicide. If you want to avoid the term and say he was "murdered," go right ahead.

because you know what? If he was "trying to make a statement" he utterly failed. The whole occupation failed. It was an unplanned farce from the beginning. The vast majority of the population think these guys got what they deserved. How do I know? From reading comments anywhere but here on ATS. Go to The Oregonian, for example, which has the most articles and coverage of any other media due to their proximity. Read the thousands of comments on those articles and they are overwhelmingly negative.

When this whole thing started there was a thread on here proclaiming this was "the first shot in the second American Revolution!" And lots of people here jumped on that bandwagon, but it never happened. It didn't "spark" anything. It's a minor entertainment blip in the news cycle. The only people it has upset are people who are upset already.

Bottom Line: Utter, complete, abject, total, epic failure.



posted on Jan, 30 2016 @ 02:28 PM
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originally posted by: opethPA

originally posted by: Rezlooper

originally posted by: ReadLeader
a reply to: Rezlooper

Most criminals have an altered state of mind whilst committing crimes. They have not practiced their m.o. and most of the time their actions are feeling based.

They are on the defence although they know their actions,before LEO does. LEO should react and escalation is in accordance w/the criminals actions...

That being said, Lavoy was NOT going to jail. His ship had sailed
He clearly wanted to meet his maker,,,,suicide by cop,,,,,,,


So, why was he surrendering then? Why not come out shooting?


Why did he reach for a gun 2x?

Life isn't a TV show where everyone meets in the middle of town and they have a shoot out.
Seems to me that if he didn't want the outcome to playout the way it did then he should have made different choices


This thing about him going for his gun twice also seems to me just validates my point... he never went for his gun. They say he went for it twice, but why if he kept going for his gun, did it never come out? It was after two times he reached down that he finally received the fatal shot that put him down. The first time he reached down, they would've taken him out. No, the truth of it is is that each time he was reaching down was him taking another shot from a hale of bullets, but none actually put him down cuz his adrenaline was pumping. It wasn't till the trooper snuck up behind him that a shot finally took him down, which was probably a fatal head shot. Of course, this is speculation on my part, but it makes more sense than him reaching for his gun twice. If that were the truth, they would have taken him out the first time he reached. The 18-year old girl said there was a lot of gunfire. I believe her.



posted on Jan, 30 2016 @ 02:33 PM
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a reply to: schuyler

How do you know he made a tidy living from these kids?



posted on Jan, 30 2016 @ 02:36 PM
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a reply to: TerryMcGuire

According to his daughters witness statement they put their hands out of the window and were shot at and that's when this happened.



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