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One question about LaVoy Finicum shooting

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+13 more 
posted on Jan, 30 2016 @ 11:44 AM
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This points out the obvious question... if LaVoy Finicum wanted a shootout with LEO in the first place, why would he have come out with hands up in surrender.



If you believe the FBI released video of the LaVoy Finicum shooting on January 26, you believe that Finicum jumped out of the vehicle after he hit the snowbank with his hands up and then, after a moment, reached for his gun, at which time, law enforcement shot and killed him.

This is the claim made by law enforcement and they released a video from an FBI helicopter on January 28 that shows he did indeed reach down. But, there remains one unanswered question to this whole event.


MinneapolisWeekly.com


It comes down to a simple question. If he ever intended to go for his weapon, why would he come out with hands up rather than have the gun out already before he even exited the vehicle? Once he came out with hands up, law enforcement had the drop on him and going for the weapon made no sense, unless you wanted to die. Witnesses in the vehicle said he was enraged with law enforcement. A man who is pissed off is thinking about giving them a piece of his mind, not his life.


This whole thing appeared to be an ambush right from the start. They were expecting quite the shoot out. Why was there an Oregon state trooper hiding that far up in the trees away from the road.

Throughout the standoff these guys never showed any hostility, aggression, rudeness or threatening behavior towards law enforcement. They were peaceful and they had regular conversations, especially LaVoy, where they seemed like average folks with an issue and wanted attention on that issue.

I don't care if he drove away and tried to run, it doesn't mean he deserved a death sentence, which is exactly what this was. IMO, it looks like he reached down after he was shot, probably in the abdominal area. In the video, you can't tell if he was grabbing for his gun, but like the question above... why wouldn't he come out of the vehicle with gun-a-blazing already if he had any intentions other than surrender?



+7 more 
posted on Jan, 30 2016 @ 11:53 AM
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a reply to: Rezlooper

Their very existence is a threat to TPTB, one thing they can not have is people asserting their rights and rising against the states "authority". I am surprised they did not take out everyone.



posted on Jan, 30 2016 @ 11:59 AM
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a reply to: Rezlooper

Most criminals have an altered state of mind whilst committing crimes. They have not practiced their m.o. and most of the time their actions are feeling based.

They are on the defence although they know their actions,before LEO does. LEO should react and escalation is in accordance w/the criminals actions...

That being said, Lavoy was NOT going to jail. His ship had sailed
He clearly wanted to meet his maker,,,,suicide by cop,,,,,,,



posted on Jan, 30 2016 @ 12:01 PM
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originally posted by: ReadLeader
a reply to: Rezlooper

Most criminals have an altered state of mind whilst committing crimes. They have not practiced their m.o. and most of the time their actions are feeling based.

They are on the defence although they know their actions,before LEO does. LEO should react and escalation is in accordance w/the criminals actions...

That being said, Lavoy was NOT going to jail. His ship had sailed
He clearly wanted to meet his maker,,,,suicide by cop,,,,,,,


So, why was he surrendering then? Why not come out shooting?



posted on Jan, 30 2016 @ 12:03 PM
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originally posted by: elementalgrove
a reply to: Rezlooper

Their very existence is a threat to TPTB, one thing they can not have is people asserting their rights and rising against the states "authority". I am surprised they did not take out everyone.


I think that's what they wanted. They were ready for it. Shooters stashed way up in the trees. But everybody was surrendering, not much resistance, except LaVoy driving away from the first pull over and attempting to go around the road block. No shots fired though from the so-called "terrorists."



posted on Jan, 30 2016 @ 12:04 PM
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If he'd kept his hands up he would have been okay, but he didn't. He went for his pockets BEFORE he was shot. You can see this clearly in a slow-motion shot of the video. The Oregonian newspaper posted this yesterday. Look at the situation:

1. He avowed never to be taken alive.
2. He was known to be armed at all times.
3. He ran from the first stop.
4. He tried to run the roadblock and got stuck, nearly hitting one deputy.
5. He jumped from the truck and had his hands up (actually, out) initially.
6. He brought his hands in to his pockets.
7. That's when he was shot.

The guy had a death wish, and he got his wish.

If he did not want to get shot what he should have done is stay in the truck with his hands clearly visible on the steering wheel and await instructions. This is what anyone should do when they are stopped. He chose to leave the truck. OK. Then he ought to have held his hands high in the air and stop, then await instructions. He didn't do that.

Even the so-called eye witnesses got this wrong. One guy driving a jeep was stopped with the truck (first stop) and claimed Finicum "charged the officers," but it is clear from the video that the jeep was so far back from the second stop that he couldn't see anything. The second witness, an 18 year old girl, said she saw Finicum get shot and that here were at least 100 bullets fired 'Bonnie & Clyde" style at the truck. Yet she also reported she was on the floorboard of the truck for protection. The two statements contradict each other.

So yes, Finicum DID show hostility both in actions and words. he died because he wanted to. He provoked his own death.



posted on Jan, 30 2016 @ 12:06 PM
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originally posted by: Rezlooper

originally posted by: ReadLeader
a reply to: Rezlooper

Most criminals have an altered state of mind whilst committing crimes. They have not practiced their m.o. and most of the time their actions are feeling based.

They are on the defence although they know their actions,before LEO does. LEO should react and escalation is in accordance w/the criminals actions...

That being said, Lavoy was NOT going to jail. His ship had sailed
He clearly wanted to meet his maker,,,,suicide by cop,,,,,,,


So, why was he surrendering then? Why not come out shooting?


Likely because he didn't want to die. He once made some off-hand remarks about how he would rather die than spend time in a concrete box, but that is something we've all said.



posted on Jan, 30 2016 @ 12:07 PM
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originally posted by: Rezlooper
Why was there an Oregon state trooper hiding that far up in the trees away from the road.


If you were using your car as a road block, would you want to be in or near it?
edit on 1/30/2016 by eNumbra because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 30 2016 @ 12:09 PM
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a reply to: Rezlooper

He was not prepared, clearly. .. he did not anticipate the road block, acted on emotions ... clearly he was confused and his indecisiveness paved the pathway to his death. He was NOT going to go to jail..

Period..

May he RIP

Eta, regardless he was armed, he blew through roadblocks he attempted to run over a Fed agent. ... he was a threat....
edit on 30-1-2016 by ReadLeader because: Facoid


+3 more 
posted on Jan, 30 2016 @ 12:16 PM
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a reply to: Rezlooper

We will never know because those still living are saying he went for his gun therefore terrorist.

IMO, he was murdered by US government agents to send a "kill one, scare a thousand" message to others of the same mindset.

and I couldn't care less what Mr Finicum "said" whilst he was still alive - it's irrelevant when faced with the fact that he was ambushed, got out with hands up and was gunned down in cold blood.



posted on Jan, 30 2016 @ 12:19 PM
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a reply to: Sublimecraft

The videos are clear. He went for his weapon twice.... have you not reviewed them Sublime?

Not to mention, the historical demonstration and vocalization of the 'occupiers' all being armed and ready to fight/die for their beliefs raises the bar emphatically. ..



edit on 30-1-2016 by ReadLeader because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 30 2016 @ 12:20 PM
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a reply to: Rezlooper

Personally, after watching the video, I felt he came out of the vehicle with his hands up to get them to focus on him, and not so much the vehicle. With how fast he ran from the vehicle, it's like he was trying to pull aggro his way. Now, upon slowing the video down, I don't think he was purposely trying to reach for his gun, but it did seem that the officer behind him startled him which is why he reached as he spun around. Unfortunately, it was that moment that he was shot.

Now anything I say here is pure speculation, because I don't know the guy, nor his past experiences. But I get the impression that though he may be a tough guy, he's not combat-trained. It seemed once he was in that position, he was nervous, and made a foolishly fatal mistake. I do believe he was going to surrender, but because he was startled, he reached for his gun.

Like I said, pure speculation, but that's how it looked to me.


+2 more 
posted on Jan, 30 2016 @ 12:25 PM
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a reply to: Sublimecraft

I agree. To state a man with 11 children was suicidal is a stretch of the imagination. If anything, he died with the motive of saving the people in the truck.



posted on Jan, 30 2016 @ 12:31 PM
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Without sound there is no way we'll know whether he was shot and was instinctively covering his wound, or going for a gun, but Rezlooper's point is well made.

Why get out (bravely drawing attention from the occupants in the car) with your hands up when he could have got out with a gun, or even have taken some shots from the (relative) safety of the vehicle.



posted on Jan, 30 2016 @ 12:34 PM
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originally posted by: Rezlooper

originally posted by: ReadLeader
a reply to: Rezlooper

Most criminals have an altered state of mind whilst committing crimes. They have not practiced their m.o. and most of the time their actions are feeling based.

They are on the defence although they know their actions,before LEO does. LEO should react and escalation is in accordance w/the criminals actions...

That being said, Lavoy was NOT going to jail. His ship had sailed
He clearly wanted to meet his maker,,,,suicide by cop,,,,,,,


So, why was he surrendering then? Why not come out shooting?


Why did he reach for a gun 2x?

Life isn't a TV show where everyone meets in the middle of town and they have a shoot out.
Seems to me that if he didn't want the outcome to playout the way it did then he should have made different choices



posted on Jan, 30 2016 @ 12:38 PM
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Someone of the bunch had to not surrender, had to be willing to die and he was zealot enough to do it. It just took him a few seconds to override his survival instinct. They're all batsht crazy but if the "movement" wasn't going to down in a blaze of jokes... one of them had to be willing to die.
edit on 1/30/2016 by Kali74 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 30 2016 @ 12:43 PM
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originally posted by: Kali74
Someone of the bunch had to not surrender, had to be willing to die and he was zealot enough to do it. It just took him a few seconds to override his survival instinct. They're all batsht crazy but if the "movement" wasn't going to down in a blaze of jokes... one of them had to be willing to die.


I think it is a little too early for slander, wouldn't you say?



posted on Jan, 30 2016 @ 12:44 PM
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originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: Sublimecraft

I agree. To state a man with 11 children was suicidal is a stretch of the imagination. If anything, he died with the motive of saving the people in the truck.


Foster children from which he made a tidy living. As for him being "suicidal," here's a couple of quotes from him:

“There are things more important than your life — and freedom is one of them. I’m prepared to defend freedom.”

“I have been raised in the country all my life. I love dearly to feel the wind on my face, to see the sun rise, to see the moon in the night. I have no intention of spending any of my days in a concrete box.”


edit on 1/30/2016 by schuyler because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 30 2016 @ 12:45 PM
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The guy got shot first by the officer on the lower right in the pictures.

That's when he "lowered" his hands.

Then the officer on the left shot him.




posted on Jan, 30 2016 @ 12:50 PM
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The whole standoff from the beginning was about bringing public attention to the abuses of the federal gov., which is why they seemed like such media whores. I believe Lavoy got out of the truck with his hands up hoping to get shot, so that it would make him a martyr and spark a fire to the masses which at this point hadn't exactly happened. When he was not shot as expected, he made some provocative moves which got the response he wanted.

I'm a big supporter of the freedom movement, but it looks like this could have all been avoided if they had just surrendered like Ammon Bundy in the jeep did.



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