Trump and the Pole Shift in American Fascism

originally posted by: onequestion
Anything is better than this corporate oligarchy.

What in the world makes you think he is anything BUT part of the corporate oligarchy?

a reply to: whyamIhere

Has anyone looked at his hairline?


JUST asking.

a reply to: Astyanax

BANKING fascists...
WHAT would that be called, because when you get down to it the banks are the movers and the shakers?
The next guy in the white house will have an interesting time

a reply to: ipsedixit

I think we have a few folks WAITING to plow into some "Brown shirts"

a reply to: Leonidas

He's not following the same rules as everyone else.

originally posted by: onequestion
a reply to: Leonidas

He's not following the same rules as everyone else.

What rules is he following? What has he been about his entire adult life? Listen to his history and he will tell you who he is. Believe him.

"The major problem — one of the major problems, for there are several — one of the many major problems with governing people is that of whom you get to do it; or rather of who manages to get people to let them do it to them.
To summarize: it is a well known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it.
To summarize the summary: anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job.
To summarize the summary of the summary: people are a problem." --- Douglas Adams

Bout says the Truth of the Matter at hand.

I won't state my personal opinion of Trump, because everybody has one, and no single opinion means any more, or any less, than the next person's. But I will say that I LOVE candidates that have the guts to go against the media! Pandering, brown-nosers (hello Hillary) are disgusting.

a reply to: carewemust

Trump and Hillary are both unqualified in very different ways. Neither are fit for the office.

originally posted by: onequestion
Anything is better than this corporate oligarchy.

Which Trump has been a part of his whole life....

I get so confused on how people can separate him from that.

a reply to: cavtrooper7

Sorry, I don’t waste my time on people who can’t be bothered to look at a dictionary.

Like Hitler, if there is an economic crisis in the US before the election that will only strengthen his support. Hitler was the result of the collapse of the Weimar Republic. If America has an market crash and layoffs this year he will win the election because people will blame it on the Democrats. This is of course if he wins the nomination.

a reply to: ipsedixit

I was slightly surprised by this thread because I wonder where you draw the line between the principle of fascism directed at your own people or directed at people of another country?

The pictures above could have probably hundreds of thousands added to them of men wearing the same expression. Ian Paisley the Northern Ireland "You're all Sinners". barker looks exactly like those above albeit from the religious again could you say fascist principled point of view?

Perhaps I should be grateful for mealy mouthed cameron but I suspect I would rather have some passion to someone's beliefs.

originally posted by: Kitana
a reply to: ipsedixit

I missed the part where Trump promised to dissolve the constitution and run the country through autonomous rule.

He might spring that on people. FEMA and the Patriot Act make that sort of thing easier than it ever has been.

I did not miss however, that he said it is important to the citizens of this nation, that we begin to enforce laws for the benefit of the citizenry. Something our government SHOULD have been doing all along.

Has he issued a list of his nominations for arrest? Should George W. Bush move to his estate in Paraguay right away?

I did not hear him say anything about race, only that as Americans we need to do what it best for Americans to ensure a better future for our children and not worry about how others conceive of that. Since all Americans are of such varying races, there is no racial agenda, but an agenda which would benefit all citizens and no one else. Something that is the consideration of any nation on earth.

One could say that you are stating a semantical argument. I think Trump has already been inciting hatred of Mexicans, Chinese and Canadians, all of whom he "loves", of course.

Illegal immigration is a detriment to all Citizens of the United States, no matter where there country of origin. How fair is it to the one who did everything necessary to come into this country legally, when he had to follow all the rules and another person does not have to. Laws which apply to one, need to apply to all equally.

Americans never seem to want to carry their own freight. Successive administrations, going back over time, have elected to declare amnesties to illegal immigrants. This goes back decades, maybe thirty or forty years and several administrations, as I'm sure you know. The reason for that is not the great power of penniless immigrants. The reasons are home grown, mainly the lack of a reasonable minimum wage and a refusal to get tough with people who hire illegals.

Trump has stated that he will not raise the minimum wage. I think it is a fantasy to believe that Trump will do anything effective on illegal immigration. Americans are incredibly gullible about this sort of thing. They don't know who wags the dog.

When we arrest someone for theft, do we then say we will not put him in jail and excuse him of his crime because he has a family? No. We say he broke the law and for that he must face the punishment and that it was to him to consider the consequences of his actions prior to committing that crime.

Issues of crime and punishment in the United States are extremely complex. Illegal immigrants come into the United States because employers will hire them. There is no serious attempt to stop this flow of illegals, just as there is no serious attempt to combat the heroin or coc aine trades in the United States.

Trump supporters are easy game for him because, as George H.W. Bush so aptly observed, "Americans don't read". Americans don't know the dynamics of illegal immigration. Trump supporters think that illegal immigrants are responsible for illegal immigration.

Saying that while at war with terrorist organizations such as ISIS and Al-Qaeda that we need to stop immigration of people who might possibly have affiliations with those groups until which time we can lean how best to vet those prospective immigrants, is saying this country needs during this time to be protected and we should do all we can to protect our citizens. This is the responsibility of government, and what we have government for. This is not a racist policy, as these groups have no racial ties but rather ideological ties.

It's religious discrimination. ISIS and Al Qaeda are creations of the CIA and NATO. Essentially they are mercenaries that have been used to fight the proxy wars of America and her NATO allies in Afghanistan, North Africa, Iraq, Syria, Kosovo and possibly other places I am not aware of (Pakistan, India?).

You have to be a pretty alert TV watcher to catch this drift. Reading is out, of course (per George H.W. Bush), but for Americans willing to go against the grain and do some research, there is plenty of material on the origins of ISIS and Al Qaeda.

To cry fascist, is to speak in ignorance.

That's amusing.

a reply to: ipsedixit

My father went through fascism in Italy and told me all about Mussolini.

Nothing to do with Trump.

It seems America is done with republican democracy and is opting for a plutocracy

The term plutocracy is generally used as a pejorative to describe or warn against an undesirable condition.[3][4] Throughout history, political thinkers such as Winston Churchill, 19th-century French sociologist and historian Alexis de Tocqueville, 19th-century Spanish monarchist Juan Donoso Cortés and today Noam Chomsky have condemned plutocrats for ignoring their social responsibilities, using their power to serve their own purposes and thereby increasing poverty and nurturing class conflict, corrupting societies with greed and hedonism.[5][6]

a reply to: ipsedixit

He might spring that on people. FEMA and the Patriot Act make that sort of thing easier than it ever has been.

"might" is a very open word, anyone "might", there is nothing there but fear of the unknown.

Has he issued a list of his nominations for arrest? Should George W. Bush move to his estate in Paraguay right away?

If he issued a list of people he would arrest the second he got into office, then your "might" above, might have more merit. As it stands, it is still without merit and your response in no way proves that your "might" has any more merit than any other irrational fear anyone else might have.

One could say that you are stating a semantical argument. I think Trump has already been inciting hatred of Mexicans, Chinese and Canadians, all of whom he "loves", of course.

Again with the might's. It is not hatred of Mexicans, Chinese or Canadians to desire all immigration into this country be legal immigration. Trump embraces the free market - as such, green is the color he favors. A free market economy rewards those of higher intelligence, so those are the people whom Trump surrounds himself with, and there, he is color blind. He has a a get the job done mentality without thought to skin color.

Americans never seem to want to carry their own freight. Successive administrations, going back over time, have elected to declare amnesties to illegal immigrants. This goes back decades, maybe thirty or forty years and several administrations, as I'm sure you know. The reason for that is not the great power of penniless immigrants. The reasons are home grown, mainly the lack of a reasonable minimum wage and a refusal to get tough with people who hire illegals.

Trump has stated that he will not raise the minimum wage. I think it is a fantasy to believe that Trump will do anything effective on illegal immigration. Americans are incredibly gullible about this sort of thing. They don't know who wags the dog.

If my neighbor broke the law does it make it right for you? No, it is still breaking the law, and it is still wrong.

No, Trump believes in our free market economy. He will not raise minimum wage as that solves no problem but rather, creates more. If you want to see wages increase in a free market society then increase competition in the job market. Have more jobs than people and people gain greater control over their wages. Have more people than jobs, and the companies gain greater control of wages. Unfettered immigration puts more power into the hands of corporations and drives down the average wage, it should be something you should stand against if you want people to have more control in the job market; provided you live in a free market society, which I do.

Issues of crime and punishment in the United States are extremely complex. Illegal immigrants come into the United States because employers will hire them. There is no serious attempt to stop this flow of illegals, just as there is no serious attempt to combat the heroin or coc aine trades in the United States.

Trump supporters are easy game for him because, as George H.W. Bush so aptly observed, "Americans don't read". Americans don't know the dynamics of illegal immigration. Trump supporters think that illegal immigrants are responsible for illegal immigration.

Again, unfettered immigration in a free market society takes wage control out of the hands of the worker placing control into the hands of the corporation. If you support higher wages then you should support a very limited immigration in our free market society with a greater focus on job creation.

The problem with illegal immigration coming specifically from the Mexican border and what drives it rests mainly on the welfare state. If you are going to have immigration, you cannot allow the welfare state to exist. 73% of all illegal immigrants From Mexico and Central America are here on welfare. 27% of all the same illegal immigrants are here simply to work and work alone. So, we have to place an equal if not greater blame on the welfare state for illegal immigration coming from Mexico and Central America than we do on corporations. Can we say if the same amount of people would still come if there was no promise of welfare?

The bill to create a wall on our border was passed in the house and senate in 2006. No one wanted to actually build it and the project was defunded twice. Trump has laid out a plan to supply the economics of building the wall and it also gives us extra jobs. Its a win win; a solid plan. It benefits Americans by reducing the amount of people receiving their subsistence from our tax dollars, creates a few jobs and benefits Americans through stabilizing the number of people in the work force. When you add to that the tax plans Trump has spelled out, you see the very real possibility of corporations coming back to America, and bringing jobs with them.

It's religious discrimination. ISIS and Al Qaeda are creations of the CIA and NATO. Essentially they are mercenaries that have been used to fight the proxy wars of America and her NATO allies in Afghanistan, North Africa, Iraq, Syria, Kosovo and possibly other places I am not aware of (Pakistan, India?).

You have to be a pretty alert TV watcher to catch this drift. Reading is out, of course (per George H.W. Bush), but for Americans willing to go against the grain and do some research, there is plenty of material on the origins of ISIS and Al Qaeda.

We are at war with people who tie their terrorist acts intrinsically into their religion and religious texts, from their own mouths, not ours (read Dabiq if you are unclear as to the truth of my statement). Until we can determine how to properly vet these immigrants (learn how to differentiate terrorist from simple worshipper), then we cannot allow immigration from those who have the potential to hold affiliations to those people with whom we are at war with. To do otherwise is unwise, and not in the interest of the American people, but rather doing what is in the interest of the terrorist groups themselves.

Constitutional protections are for the citizens of the United States, not for the protection of just anyone, anywhere in the world. The protection such an implementation of policy affords all Americans, also benefits and protects Muslims in our country as well.

In closing, up to now our politicians have done nothing but implement programs which benefit no one but politicians and their campaign donors/lobbyists. We have now a possibility to elect someone with a plan that has real promise if implemented, keeps our free market and would be a potential boom to Americans. It is a chance I am willing to take.

Could it backfire in that Trump does nothing he has said? Sure it could. But at the same time, unlike other politicians it has a better possibility of not backfiring. He is not a pre-purchased candidate; not beholden to lobbyists and has a well thought out plan that is implementable. I'll take the chance on him, before I'll take a chance on someone else.

a reply to: Trueman

Mussolini is a personality. Fascist supporters of Trump can tell you all about him too, but be completely unaware that the United States is a fascist country. You do know that the United States is a fascist country don't you?

originally posted by: Kitana

a reply to: ipsedixit

Could it backfire in that Trump does nothing he has said? Sure it could. But at the same time, unlike other politicians it has a better possibility of not backfiring. He is not a pre-purchased candidate; not beholden to lobbyists and has a well thought out plan that is implementable. I'll take the chance on him, before I'll take a chance on someone else.

Trump is a congenital liar. If he does get elected, I don't think there is any more chance of him implementing his "program" than there would be if any other of the current crop of politicians got elected.

Trump may not be beholden to lobbyists but he depends on the cooperation of the financial/industrial interests that actually control the United States and everything in it. They depend on his cooperation too and have the ways and means of getting it. Trump money is chump change to them.

Nothing Trump has said goes to the heart of America's problems. America needs to repatriate jobs and the only realistic way to do that is to get out of various free trade deals and erect a tariff barrier to protect American industry from overseas sweat shops. Getting US industry onside for that is not going to be an easy job.

Trump is going to have to go to war with the oligarchy and the globalists, not with the Mexican immigrants. I don't think he is up to it, personally. I have no confidence in Trump, but he certainly has confidence in himself, but is he just a "confidence man", that is the question.

A lot of Americans seem to be willing to bet on him. It is a bet, in my view. I would be delighted if it paid off for the country, but I don't see it happening and I don't like his scapegoating and his boorish blustering.

The United States has been on a course that was designed by neo-cons and the CIA for quite some time now. It is built on war, the defense industries and controlling oil resources. That track has been maintained over the past four administrations. Trump will stay on that track. That's what the oligarchs want. Maybe they want him to create a police state at home, using the immigration issue as cover, but I don't think they will go along with his other ideas on trade.

To me Trump doesn't have a coherent plan at all, and he lies continually whenever he gets specific about Iran or China or Iraq. I don't believe anything he says.

To Trump supporters I would say, "Check his facts."

Trump is a quintessential promoter. His default position in any conversation is to keep his lips moving whether he knows what he is talking about or not. He just wears people out. "The triumph of the will" as Webster Tarpley pointed out.

a reply to: ipsedixit

As for checking facts, it has been thus far the media doing the greatest disservice to Americans in misconstruing the facts and/or failing to represent Trump in a truthful manner. But I very much do agree with you, everyone should have the intelligence to delve into the truth and do their research rather than taking in only one side. It makes for better decision making in the end. As for me, I have done this thoroughly and I highly recommend it to all.

For the rest, I will simply make a closing statement and consider our conversation complete, because in the end we all must be our own person and make our own decisions.

We are facing a precipice right now in America. I agree with you that the position we find ourselves in is not a good one. We have spent, as a nation, arguably the last 3 generations handing the state greater and greater amounts of power over our lives. We now have so many laws in this country that the thought of someone coming in and actually enforcing all those laws creates a sense of fear; it is now that bad.

However, the definition of stupidity is to keep doing the same things over and over with the expectation of a different result. And this is what we have been doing, fear of implementation of all these laws drives us toward leaders who appear weaker, all the while continuing to grant the state, through them, ever greater amounts of power because they are weak sell-outs.

Sanders promises us that he will give the state greater and greater power, but he appears to be weak. In comparison Trump offers to give Americans greater control, but he appears strong. So there is fear of that. But, if we continue to give the state ever greater control and power, there WILL come a day someone will come in and life in America will be nothing but hell until we overthrow the government.

We must take a chance of doing something different, we must decide that doing the same thing over and over is not helping. We are on a precipice and it is now or never for that chance as a nation. Trump is the only one even offering us a chance to regain the free market in America and strengthen us, not through war, not through ever more laws and regulations, but through positive economic strategy and reduced immigration flow. It wont be easy and we must do some things that others might not like. But in the end, if we actually do these things, we have a chance at a better future than the one which gives state even further inroads into our lives and even greater cause to fear.

Everyone must make their own decision, let us all hope our decisions right now are the best ones possible.