The Science of Occult, Paranormal and Other "Supernormal Phenomena"

a reply to: TerryMcGuire

I vaguely remember now that you recounted this here before and it still blows my mind. I have had a simular experiance that I won't go into here now but nothing so visual. It did involve a good friend that somehow was in two places at once however and was strange.

originally posted by: chr0naut
a reply to: Astrocyte

I, and my grandmother both saw a "shadow person" or other apparition.

It appeared in our kitchen against a white backdrop. It appeared close to midday and we have skylights nearby and so there was no issue of seeing something vaguely, in the dark. It had wispy or ill defined edges. It was only momentary, but gave us quite a fright. It felt malevolent to me.

I saw the apparition first and my reaction caused my grandmother to turn towards it. I was about 15 feet away and she was about six feet away. I thought she was going to collapse and so I ran to her aid but when I looked back towards the apparition, it was gone.

I could discern no facial features or clothing details except that it wore a Fedora style hat and perhaps a suit coat (from the shoulder profile).

My grandmother later said she thought it might have been her late husband.

At the time, my grandmother was in late stages of terminal cancer and was living at my parents house prior to going into palliative care, She passed a few weeks after the incident. I was about 11 years old.

That is actually very common especially during the time of a loved ones death. My Mom had an experience like that just before my fathers death.

Myself I have worked with Law enforcement on many issues related to the outcomes of really serious problems.

While I cannot go into details I have gone into the details related to why something like this is possible, in relation to my upbringing.

What you saw was a person that had died in the past and your mother was probably right as to who it was.

From my point of view the dead are still alive and what you experienced was them able to express that experience
in a way you could observe.

originally posted by: Astrocyte

I want to know if you have:

seen with your own two eyes another person levitate (a common claim)?

have you, with another person, seen an apparition, in the sense that you and additional others saw the same thing, in the same way, but knowing that it was a non-material presence (the idea of a collective hallucination sounds too implausible to account for a jointly perceived phenomena)

occultists claim to "summon" spirits and other transpersonal phenomena, visible in some way to those present. Has anyone here actually done this and seen this happen?

various spiritual traditions claim the power to "transport" objects, or "materialize" objects, or actually move objects, with nothing other than some mental power. Has anyone here seen this?

With respect, I do not see the point of asking ATS members if you are already stating that these are common claims. What makes the ATS member different from the millions who have claimed the above ?

These are the types of evidences that have force in convincing skeptics

I honestly cannot see the point of pulling Skeptics out of their hole. If they do not want to open their mind, that is their own predicament.

This is just pure journalism; the way a journalist approaches the making of a documentary. The pre-requisite being the fact that the journalist himself has not got a clue.

It would have been more useful to take each of the above claim and state your opinion (whilst keeping an open mind)

originally posted by: Kashai

originally posted by: chr0naut
a reply to: Astrocyte

I, and my grandmother both saw a "shadow person" or other apparition.

It appeared in our kitchen against a white backdrop. It appeared close to midday and we have skylights nearby and so there was no issue of seeing something vaguely, in the dark. It had wispy or ill defined edges. It was only momentary, but gave us quite a fright. It felt malevolent to me.

I saw the apparition first and my reaction caused my grandmother to turn towards it. I was about 15 feet away and she was about six feet away. I thought she was going to collapse and so I ran to her aid but when I looked back towards the apparition, it was gone.

I could discern no facial features or clothing details except that it wore a Fedora style hat and perhaps a suit coat (from the shoulder profile).

My grandmother later said she thought it might have been her late husband.

At the time, my grandmother was in late stages of terminal cancer and was living at my parents house prior to going into palliative care, She passed a few weeks after the incident. I was about 11 years old.

That is actually very common especially during the time of a loved ones death. My Mom had an experience like that just before my fathers death.

Myself I have worked with Law enforcement on many issues related to the outcomes of really serious problems.

While I cannot go into details I have gone into the details related to why something like this is possible, in relation to my upbringing.

What you saw was a person that had died in the past and your mother was probably right as to who it was.

From my point of view the dead are still alive and what you experienced was them able to express that experience
in a way you could observe.

One might conjecture as to the purpose of the apparition. It certainly brought no comfort nor clarity.

My feeling was that the apparition exuded malevolence. I believe that is what my grandmother felt too.

a reply to: chr0naut

In relation to looking into this it can be scary but a lot of that has to do with addressing an unknown. As a person who is inclined to physics I am certain you have experiences that sense of exhilaration when learning something new, but in relation to something you did on your own.

What "seeing" that apparition similar but with a negative tone?

A person who aided in my upbringing once told me that the dead are the least of your worries.

Its the living you have to worry about

When loved ones die experiences similar to what you had are actually somewhat common.

I have a friend who's niece was at her grandmothers house the day after her grandmothers funeral. The phone rang and she went to answer it. At the other end she heard nothing but static so she checked in caller ID and found that the call came from the same number assigned to that house.

The caller ID really did show a call had been made to the house from the same number assigned to that very same house.


Pick up any set of Tarot cards and note how veils are expressed in relation to the major arcana.

That is how a person who's perspective, relates to death. As a separation, related proverbially as to how a veil separates one place from another.

This is essential to relating to a spiritual life as in death is simply no different than the other side to a coin.

For me understanding this is not different than understanding how to walk or talk, it is a developmental issue.

originally posted by: Kashai
a reply to: chr0naut

In relation to looking into this it can be scary but a lot of that has to do with addressing an unknown. As a person who is inclined to physics I am certain you have experiences that sense of exhilaration when learning something new, but in relation to something you did on your own.

What "seeing" that apparition similar but with a negative tone?

A person who aided in my upbringing once told me that the dead are the least of your worries.

Its the living you have to worry about

When loved ones die experiences similar to what you had are actually somewhat common.

I have a friend who's niece was at her grandmothers house the day after her grandmothers funeral. The phone rang and she went to answer it. At the other end she heard nothing but static so she checked in caller ID and found that the call came from the same number assigned to that house.

The caller ID really did show a call had been made to the house from the same number assigned to that very same house.


Pick up any set of Tarot cards and note how veils are expressed in relation to the major arcana.

That is how a person who's perspective relates to death as a separation related proverbially as to how a veil separates one place from another.

For me understanding this is not different than understanding how to walk or talk, it is a developmental issues.

I believe that our consciousness is imprinted at a quantum level into the structure of the universe, that the essence of our personality, our engram, survives beyond our physical death.

This is not to say that I believe we go around 'alive' though dead. I believe that after death, it would take a vast intelligence to re-corporalize us from the trace.

In my Christian faith, this equates to God granting heaven and/or resurrection.

I do not believe that enough of us exists in an active format to self-actualize the existential process.

My conception is that God evaluates our engram and determines if we will be reincorporated from the trace.

'Hell' (for want of a better word) is separation from God, i.e: a denial of God's reincorporation - essentially the person remains only a vague memory or trace, one that will never have being.

On the other hand, if we 'make the grade' God gives us being and we can continue to mature according to His purposes.

I believe this because God's primary intention appears to be a process of uplifting His creation (not just our species) to higher and higher states of existence.

One of those states we describe as consciousness, but there are likely to be further states after that.

Therefore, God is likely to reincorporate some of us in that process, otherwise death itself is pointless and counterproductive to God's revealed purposes.

* Please note that my use of the word "engram" was in a purely neuropsychological sense. I have no affiliation or respect for the Scientology cult who also use (and misuse) the term.

I believe that God is Omni-Present therefore Gods existence relates to everything at the same time. What God made possible was a past and future allowing for the development of life.

Being alive as we understand it is an expression of life that is ever present.

Hell is a place where God does not look and those placed their went voluntarily. When God presented to then the extent they deviated from Gods plan.

In context the Universe started from creation and all paths despite some periodical deviations, are headed in the same direction.

So present God as Love suggests that there is an aspect to reality where what we currently perceive as objective. In such as aspect is defined clearly as what we acknowledge upon Earth in day to day life as subjective.


Material reality is a means to develop life to the extent it can relate to the Moment is infinite, and where all intrinsic capacity to observe and interact, can be understood as one frame of reference.

a reply to: crowdedskies

You cannot be the master of anything unless you have all the knowledge on the subject.

I sold myself for all the hidden knowledge I could gain, and I did gain countless amounts of knowledge, but funny thing is..I can't share it with any of you without my brain feeling like it's going into a meltdown.

Also recently I made a comment to someone about how they were close to finding out the truth of a certain subject, something I should not have disclosed...that same night I saw an entity & shortly after a glass bowl flew off the shelf, and I nearly got my face and neck cut up by glass shattering all over the place.

It's hard to explain but yes playing with fire can be very dangerous and not as fruitful as you may want it to be.

a reply to: fossilera

I got goosebumps just reading that! Weird!

A psychologist would wonder whether you were all priming one another towards the same interpretation. Did you check if anyone had woken up or gone down the stairs to the basement?

a reply to: trollz

Clearly emotional arousal is a part of this process. But it's difficult to explain!

A plausible interpretation is that a person, or group of persons, when sharing the same general state, or expectations, seem to create an "atmosphere" that somehow interfaces with physical space and time, so that the immediate physical atmosphere around them is "enlivened" by the affects/emotions/feelings experienced by the persons involved.

Whatever passes through, however, is where the real mystery begins!

a reply to: threeeyesopen

Interesting. Do you think "mutual belief" is necessary for one person - such as the person you 'sent a demon to' - to hear their name spoken to them?

This of course follows from my assumption that evil isn't good or inherently powerful; which is to say, the people who can be affected by "demons", must in someway subscribe to the same belief that a) such forces exist, and b) they must have a particular psychic structure that accommodates the presence of a "demon"

To be honest, a part of me is truly interested in things like these. What especially interests me is how the phenomena can be simultaneously "imaginary" and yet fully real to the parties privy to it. Somehow, human minds may be "open" to some underlying "unifying" reality, such that person A, you, can send a demon (however that is defined) to person B,who will be subject to whatever intentionality has been invested in it.

Also glad to know you've regained your sanity and now understand the "egalitarian" nature of human reality. No one gets to be above any other. Just a part of the deal

a reply to: UniFinity

I don't really have much "use" for those ideas.

I also don't need convincing that human life has some intrinsic purpose, meaning and reality. Transcendental, as in, love is the core of everything. My deepest intuitions as well as my understanding of development, incline me in this direction.

What would REALLY convince people, however, that reality is "mental", and not physical, as usually defined, are the sorts of things I requested in my original post.

a reply to: crowdedskies

That's a good question.

Just to get a sense, I suppose, from reading what people who post at this site have experienced.

Sometimes "someone elses" research can seem foreign, particularly in matters as esoteric and inexplicable as these.

I honestly cannot see the point of pulling Skeptics out of their hole. If they do not want to open their mind, that is their own predicament.

Really? You think reality is as simplistic, linear, and easy as you make it out to be?

Ultimately, skepticism is founded upon a much more obvious fact of human mental reality: our tendency to dissociate negative and painful affects (feelings) and our biased inclination to accept "stories" that make us feel better.

The whole point of scientific investigation is to sift the wheat from the chaff, wishful fantasy, from reality. The NEED for something to be a certain way, vs. the reality of things.

I'm not saying, either, that these things (paranormal phenomena) don't happen. But I also understand, quite well, and I also think, quite empathically (in that I can imaginatively place myself in someone else's developmental context).

It would have been more useful to take each of the above claim and state your opinion (whilst keeping an open mind)

But that would have been false. Just because this is "what journalists do", doesn't mean it is the right approach. I acknowledged my ignorance at the beginning in saying that I have never personally (or with others) encountered anything that defies the known physical laws of the universe. I excluded those things which are more "mental", not because they aren't real, only that they do no not possess the same cogency as seeing something materialize and than vanish.

Also, at the bottom, I did sketch out a general metaphysical framework which would accommodate these phenomena. Having learned such views, and reflecting on the issues myself (as a psychologist) I naturally wondered what ATS members have experienced. Also, is it not "fun" to play with reality? To discover what others have experienced, and to subject your self to unknown possibilities?

I can tell you one thing, being psychodynamically oriented, and very-knowledgeable of our general human sensitivity to social processes, I recognize (unlike so many other scientists/philosophers) that I "do not know" such deep metaphysical matters. Furthermore, my saying something is one way, really only has force in my reality, and in terms of my developmental history. I try to be careful, as well as considerate, of how others have been "compelled" into certain meaning-structures by their own disparate and variegated experiences of the world.

So, I'm pretty freaking open. I'm only fundamentalist about something that every human being, as far I'm concerned, should know from within their own experiences: we want to be liked; we want to feel good; and we need meaning.

Are these evolutionary forces, alone? Being well read in different academic cultures can lead you to an "openness" with either direction, as well as a solemn, and I think, compassionate acceptance that, however the world is, I want to be a force for good.

originally posted by: Astrocyte
I can tell you one thing, being psychodynamically oriented, and very-knowledgeable of our general human sensitivity to social processes, I recognize (unlike so many other scientists/philosophers) that I "do not know" such deep metaphysical matters. Furthermore, my saying something is one way, really only has force in my reality, and in terms of my developmental history. I try to be careful, as well as considerate, of how others have been "compelled" into certain meaning-structures by their own disparate and variegated experiences of the world.

So, I'm pretty freaking open. I'm only fundamentalist about something that every human being, as far I'm concerned, should know from within their own experiences: we want to be liked; we want to feel good; and we need meaning.

Are these evolutionary forces, alone? Being well read in different academic cultures can lead you to an "openness" with either direction, as well as a solemn, and I think, compassionate acceptance that, however the world is, I want to be a force for good.

I'm not feeling chatty this morning so I'll apologise for my brevity to begin with, that though is a wonderful summation, specifically as bolded but from within the over all context.

I liked that a lot. Thank you.

originally posted by: Astrocyte
a reply to: crowdedskies

That's a good question.

Just to get a sense, I suppose, from reading what people who post at this site have experienced.

Sometimes "someone elses" research can seem foreign, particularly in matters as esoteric and inexplicable as these.

OK. I can see your point.

You have presented a very well considered and balanced response to my post

The whole point of scientific investigation is to sift the wheat from the chaff, wishful fantasy, from reality. The NEED for something to be a certain way, vs. the reality of things.

This is where it all goes wrong. Any attempt to explain the unknown using a scientific approach is bound to fail.

Science "squares" up things, creates boxes in the mind and cannot accomodate the unpredictable.

On the other hand an" open" mind is one that is able to dissolve the boundaries which blocks the flow of intuition and insight. Hence, able to take in multiple concepts all at once and have the penny drop. Things just "click". You can then proceed to use the logical/rational side of you brain to categorise and "file" what you intuited from the emotional/feeling side of the brain.

The above can be illustrated qaballistically but I will not go into that.

a reply to: Astrocyte

Have you heard of Chris Carter?

He wrote a 3-volume series on this subject that you'd enjoy....the first one is
Science and Psychic Phenomena: The Fall of the House of Skeptics

The link goes to amazon, where you can read the reviews and also see his other two books.
Highly recommended reading.
Scientific, thorough, and fascinating.

a reply to: Astrocyte

Considering the person I mentioned was not living in the same house as me, nor did I tell them of my actual plan, I would say it's beyond a Jung type of experience. also they described the experience to me the next day at school (I was a teenager at the time), and I would say that they got the message regarding who it was coming from.

As a teen I was bullied a lot, mostly due to my weight, and without the ability to physically harm them without going to jail, I chose an alternate method.

People do a lot of stupid things as kids, and I had a ton of anger issues stemming from an abusive childhood.

I don't see myself as pre-disposed to be the vessel for a demon, seeing as I sought out revenge on my own; and I brought it upon myself by studying occult magik throughout my younger years before I did my first summoning ritual.

I can honestly say that I studied the occult for at least 5 years before I attempted anything.

I'd felt I was finally prepared to make the deal of my life, literally..as for the rest of the story, well lets just say that I have a lot of negative karmic points I need to make up for before I get taken away for good.

Plus I've had to accept that if hell is a real place, it's probably where my soul will end up..or I'll be stuck reincarnating forever, whichever your belief is I guess.