Father charged after girl, 12, is killed by police constable

originally posted by: schuyler
An Idiot father pointed a gun at a cop. is what happened. Father is responsible for the entire incident and is appropriately charged.

According to the article he's not a cop

Pennsylvania constables are not police officers but elected officials. They may be tasked with certain aspects of law enforcement in the duty of the courts, according to the Pennsylvania court system.

So a man has no right to defend his home ? What else is he supposed to do, just bend over and take it, live life on the streets with his daughter ?

a reply to: warisuponus

I don't normally stand up for cops....but in this case, it was completely the Father's fault. Put your self in the cop's place. If someone points a weapon at me, I'm going to follow the Golden Rule: Do Unto Others First. The Dad should have had the common sense not to point a gun at a cop.

originally posted by: Discotech

According to the article he's not a cop. Pennsylvania constables are not police officers but elected officials. They may be tasked with certain aspects of law enforcement in the duty of the courts, according to the Pennsylvania court system.

Semantic detail. BFD. I should have said "constable," which is the legally appropriate term. So very sorry. Are you okay, now? Jesus!!

So a man has no right to defend his home ? What else is he supposed to do, just bend over and take it, live life on the streets with his daughter ?

The "constable" was serving an eviction notice. In other words, he was giving the man a PIECE OF PAPER. He wasn't there to physically evict the guy--just give him a friggin' PIECE OF PAPER.

And in response to being handed a PIECE OF PAPER this guy leveled a firearm at the "constable," thus threatening his life. So just how was he "defending his home" from this PIECE OF PAPER?

What he should have done is simply accept the PIECE OF PAPER and close the god damned door!

I'm going to follow the Golden Rule: Do Unto Others First.

That is not the golden rule.

Lizzie isn't queen of you now because some people's dads had the common sense to point guns at cops.

The Dad should have had the common sense not to point a gun at a cop.

Yea Lizzie she knows
what happens to the read coats
Buffalo Road you know
what happens to Custer

LtW & the Noise, live from Skyline

a reply to: DAVID64

a reply to: Discotech

Technically it wasn't his home since he was renting and had multiple eviction notices given to him. He should have been a responsible father and not pointed a gun at someone.

a reply to: wisvol

Yet I believe the reason the story is compelling is the actual murder, and not the mentally ill man's threat.

It's not a murder, it's an accidental killing, brought on by the actions of a 3rd party.

Cause & effect

If the murder is justified (I don't believe murder is justified), it has to be self defence on the killer's part, gone wrong obviously since kid is not the threat.

Which it was, since the father was threatening the guy with a rifle.

You can claim cops are bad all you want, and have this whole ' all the leo's are dirty and screw taxation and the government' sort of attitude sure.

At the end of the day, the girl is dead because her DAD chose to make a very very stupid decision. That and that cop doesn't have great aim apparently.

But again, this arose, from the actions of the person who threatened a law enforcement official, with a gun. If you live in America, and don't know that pointing a gun at a LEO will get you shot well, I don't really know what to tell you.

~Tenth

who in their right mind aims a loaded rifle at a perceived threat, and then allows that perceived threat to actually draw his weapon and shoot? If the moron would have had the balls to do what he intended, his daughter would be alive. I would gladly accept the death of the constable in exchange for the twelve year old girl.

They would have killed the father later on anyways, but at least the daughter could have safely escaped to live another day.

Moral, if you are going to aim your firearm with intent, carry though with that intent. Only in Hollywood do people stand around aiming firearms at each other and talking for minutes and minutes without shooting. In the real world people take the shot in split seconds. Damn you #ty father, just kill yourself in prison, or before the trial to save the people of Pennsylvania some money.

What a tragic story,i get two things from...

First there needs to be a much better system in place for treating people whom are mentally ill and secondly if people are going to do jobs that require them to use a firearm for gods sake teach these people until they are competent to use them before letting loose on the unsuspecting public.....

Did the guy really have a mental illness, if he did why does he still own a rifle, so much fail in this story, a dead girl, a traumatized officer and a guy that should have probably been in a mental hospital or on meds.

It's not a murder, it's an accidental killing, brought on by the actions of a 3rd party.

Words do have meaning, thanks for pointing that out.
Webster defines murder as

: the crime of deliberately killing a person

and deliberately as (among lesser applicable uses)

: to think about or discuss issues and decisions carefully

Now you say that killing wasn't a murder because the guy may not have thought or discussed this issue and his decision to shoot carefully. Fair enough, I retract murder into "killing".

Could we see also that the actions of said third party may have been equally devoid of deliberation and thus equally accidental?

Which it was, since the father was threatening the guy with a rifle.

So you say this accidental killing is justified by the threat of a rifle.
My question to you, in light of the conclusion of your post

But again, this arose, from the actions of the person who threatened a law enforcement official, with a gun. If you live in America, and don't know that pointing a gun at a LEO will get you shot well, I don't really know what to tell you.

is this: If the child killer was employed by the child's father, for the sake of a thought experiment, would your judgement change? Would the child killer be unemployed at all perhaps?

Leo to me is a feline reference and a title not bestowed upon child killers, even accidental ones. Constable please.


You can claim cops are bad all you want, and have this whole ' all the leo's are dirty and screw taxation and the government' sort of attitude sure.

Was not aware of that vibe. Cops are people and as such have demonstrated their ability to be good.
I love lions and public servants too. they say "mandatory" like it's true.
Taxation is good: it keeps the empathy at an above psychopath level in principle. I'm happy to pay taxes and I only wish I would pay more of them, at constant rate.

Screw the government? No thanks. Ameliorate it? Yes please.


a reply to: tothetenthpower

Jeeze he was mentally unbalanced and you gomers are saying he should have done this or that....are you really serious.....
Push whacko people and they will go whacko....whatever they then do will only make sense to them in their screwed up world....
The eviction notice was going to put him and family in the street.....how paranoid would that make you.....and you are supposedly sane...
how freaking RATIONAL is that outcome....
Id expect ATS wou;ld have a but higher standards of logic.....duh...
The fault lies with the system of greed and usury we live by...

a reply to: wisvol

is this: If the child killer was employed by the child's father, for the sake of a thought experiment, would your judgement change? Would the child killer be unemployed at all perhaps?

I care not who it was.

If I showed up to somebody's house, and they threatened me with a rifle and I had the means to shoot back, I would and if by chance my bullets accidentally hit somebody else, then I would still consider the other person who threatened me at fault.

As their actions, caused the immediate reaction on my part.

I'm Canadian, we love taxes, it pays for all the nice things we have, like our healthcare. It's not perfect, but I'd rather pay 30% taxes then pay 10 grand to have a caste put on when I break my foot.

I consider a sheriff/constable to be law enforcement, the idea that they aren't is sorta just semantics. In Canada anybody with the title Constable is a law enforcement official. Considering the sheriff is elected, if enough residents of that town feel that he was in the wrong, then he won't get re-elected.

If this situation, involved ANYTHING else, than the man threatening the other man with a rifle, I'd have probably agreed that the sherrif/constable was out of line. I don't think it's awesome she's dead, or that he's injured, it's a tragic story.

But it wasn't caused by the constable trying to do something he wasn't in a position to do, nor was he taking advantage or doing anything that was in violation of his sworn duties.

~Tenth

originally posted by: hopenotfeariswhatweneed
First there needs to be a much better system in place for treating people whom are mentally ill and secondly if people are going to do jobs that require them to use a firearm for gods sake teach these people until they are competent to use them before letting loose on the unsuspecting public.....

I agree completely. If you are compelled to carry and potentially use a firearm, you should be trained to use it. Stop the threat: Two shots to the torso; one to the head. It's in every training class I've ever attended. Father should have been dead before he hit the floor. I know what happened. It's happened to me. The constable freaked out and let his adrenaline get the best of him. He'd never worked through the potential scenario.

Fortunately for all concerned, when it happened to me my weapon was a can of gel mace. I did stop the threat, but no permanent harm done.

a reply to: warisuponus

a cop shot a gun that ended a childs life.

Which could've easily been prevented if the father had never antagonized the cop by point a #ing rifle at him..
I don't like the fact that the cop felt the need to escalate the situation by drawing his weapon but in these types of situations time is a factor I'm afraid.

a reply to: tothetenthpower

I care not who it was.

So then by way of consequence anyone with a drawn firearm is enough of a threat to be shot, and if someone else is shot instead/as well, then so be it.
That's dangerous to law enforcement folk because they roll around with drawn guns all the time.

I understand your position more easily knowing where you live. Canada in my brief experience is much more pleasant than the current USA.
IN Belgium now where I am unaffected to glad when I see police roll by. In the USA, not so much anymore.
Is it just me? Maybe.

I wasn't discussing the subtleties of public servants' titles when refusing to call child killers "leos". Although pantheras are known to kill and eat youths fathered by others. They're just too cool. Also I include it in my vernacular when referring to people of actual courage, as in a soldier who faces enemy fire, emerges socially dominant and kills nobody. Which in the discussed case would have involved the state of mind where if someone took a bullet it'd better be the guy whose job it is rather than anyone else, and thus kept it in his holster. Mexican standoffs are good for commercial cliffhangers but a calm man with the ability to draw fire who chooses not to commands respect. Plus if the threat chronologically precedes the accidental killing, logic dictates that the constable faced the possibility of being shot, and responded by shooting and was still not shot, hence demonstrating how unnecessary shooting had been in terms of self preservation. As is often the case.
And I like to think the child killer by accident takes the time and effort to realize that the child he killed may have had an impact on this world he may not be able to have.

Differently worded expression of gratitude for a stimulating conversation

but in these types of situations time is a factor I'm afraid.

Thus the need for either decent training or decent instincts.
Bashing the killer doesn't help, I agree.
Bashing the grieving father doesn't either.

a reply to: NateTheAnimator

Please continue your discussion here - www.abovetopsecret.com...

Thanks!