It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

New Testament original texts, where are they?

page: 9
7
<< 6  7  8    10  11  12 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Feb, 1 2016 @ 02:24 AM
link   

originally posted by: areyousirius360
a reply to: Utnapisjtimya nobody was writing on papyrus. We HAVE the Dead Sea Scrolls and they are older, so that doesn't hold water.



There are NO NT scriptures among the Dead Sea Scrolls. Early Christians wrote on cheap papyrus for the most part.
edit on 1-2-2016 by Utnapisjtim because: (no reason given)




posted on Feb, 1 2016 @ 08:15 AM
link   
a reply to: UtnapisjtimFirst, you know I didn't say that the DSS were new Testament, I said they were older than AD1. Old enough to make your papyrus theory invalid. I don't care what kind of paper YOU say people were writing on at that time to save money. This is God in the flesh, that theory is junk, you have said it multiple times and it just doesn't apply. Come up with a better theory.



posted on Feb, 1 2016 @ 08:19 AM
link   
a reply to: isomorphicThey would solve the problem of there being no historical record of a Yeshua ben Yosef of Nazareth/Bethlehem. Cute analogy, not relevant.



posted on Feb, 1 2016 @ 08:38 AM
link   
a reply to: areyousirius360

Oh my!



posted on Feb, 1 2016 @ 09:16 AM
link   
a reply to: UtnapisjtimWell mam I'm not trying to be rude but when you give a theory like that you have to be willing to say that we weren't capable of preserving the historical record of God in the flesh. If we have the Dead Sea Scrolls, which are older than that, it means we had the capability. To shift over to your papyrus argument, your suggesting people skimped out when it comes to record keeping re: Histories most important event. And that Jesus can multiply fish but not enough quality paper for his biography.
Why is Christianity immune from logic by its adherents? Yet every other religion ignored, scrutinized to point out fallacies or just plain demonized and not given the same logical immunity? Certainly the evidence is no more or less in the other major older religions. OT Judaism is not even the equivalent of what is practiced today by strict Torah observant Jews, and not what Christianity thinks it was. Night and Day really, at least up until the Persians freed them from Babylonian captivity.
If Christianity has the right to usurp Hebrew tradition applying their own ideas to OT prophecy, and is immune to logic and scrutiny then I just want to know why the evidence doesn't support its claims.

edit on 1-2-2016 by areyousirius360 because: (no reason given)

edit on 1-2-2016 by areyousirius360 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 1 2016 @ 10:37 AM
link   
a reply to: areyousirius360

Like I say, ancient writing material wasn't like modern paper. Whatever we have dating back more than 1000 years written on either parchment or papyrus they are miracles of survival. If you can get say, any book to survive a thousand years, even using modern technology, you won't be around for the disappointment, for you would most likely fail. The main answer to your worries in the OP is then Oxygen, it eats up the documents nature's way, and then you have the handlers of these texts, and their enemies, the most destructive thing known to man: Man. Oh, the humanity....



posted on Feb, 1 2016 @ 10:42 AM
link   
a reply to: areyousirius360

For a person who claims full knowledge you are acting as if you have none on the Biblical issue of the Holy Ghost/Spirit.



posted on Feb, 1 2016 @ 12:06 PM
link   
a reply to: ChesterJohndon't get nasty and make accusatory remarks. It's common for christians to make little remarks like that when logic and skepticism get applied to the new testament. That's because these stories could be made up for all we know and will never be proven.
You are funny judging people. Judge not, lest ye be judged is one of the most famous sayings in the new testament and here you are judging me by letters on a screen. You aren't representing Christian values when you do that.
Contribute knowledge not insults. What I believe about the Holy Spirit is none of your concer. If I say the Holy Spirit is with me, and you make little comments like that, you don't have any idea what you're talking about. You have no say in the matter. Grumble all you want.


edit on 1-2-2016 by areyousirius360 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 1 2016 @ 12:11 PM
link   
a reply to: ChesterJohn
AND I DID NOT SAY I HAVE FULL KNOWLEDGE. Another tactic, embellishment, it ain't going to work. There is no evidence of Jesus, or you wouldn't have to have faith, you would know. Faith is the only thing keeping Christianity alive besides money(and lies). The world is corrupt big deal.



posted on Feb, 1 2016 @ 01:07 PM
link   
a reply to: UtnapisjtimYour theory doesn't hold up because we have older, written on paper documents oxygen papyrus doesn't matter. How complicated is it to understand that the srory of Jesus and his disciples occurred at a time in history when we ABSOLUTELY had the ability to preserve written documents. It's not a stretch either that God would preserve it if we couldn't. That theory is full of holes and I would lose it.



posted on Feb, 1 2016 @ 01:09 PM
link   
a reply to: UtnapisjtimTHE DEAD SEA SCROLLS ARE OLDER THAN AD1. I don't mean to yell but you keep ignoring the fact. That's all it takes to dismiss your theory.



posted on Feb, 1 2016 @ 02:23 PM
link   
This website is informative if you are interested in the earliest NT manuscripts:
www.bible.ca...

There are a number of NT fragments dated between 150 and 200 AD. The John Rylands fragment is dated between 100 and 150 AD.

We would have more from that time period if legit archaeological excavations could be done on ancient Christian sites. However most of these places are under muslim control now and they wouldn't normally allow Christians into these places looking for historical proof of Christianity. Certain groups of muslims (like ISIS) also have a tendency to destroy religious artifacts.



posted on Feb, 1 2016 @ 02:32 PM
link   
a reply to: peskyhumansthe oldest complete NT is from 300ad roughly. I don't think Muslims would destroy Christian texts they love Jesus. Pauline texts yes because they know he was a false prophet. But they did destroy tons of pagan artifacts.



posted on Feb, 1 2016 @ 02:39 PM
link   

originally posted by: areyousirius360
a reply to: UtnapisjtimTHE DEAD SEA SCROLLS ARE OLDER THAN AD1.



Yes, and it's mostly rubbish, it's like ash and shreds. And a lump of copper. And they had all been sealed in hermetic clay jars and buried for best chance for survival, and like I said, it's all fragments, save for the copper scroll that had not yet withered away.



posted on Feb, 1 2016 @ 03:24 PM
link   
a reply to: areyousirius360

Actually gnosisisfaith/essence616/33Iam666/369elyon/areyousirius360 I judge you by your words and your actions on your threads and posts.


edit on 1-2-2016 by ChesterJohn because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 1 2016 @ 04:06 PM
link   
The OP asks a bait question in the OP title.


New Testament original texts, where are they?


So far he has failed to even stay on this topic or give any evidence.

SO here goes. The NT ORIGINALS are all lost and destroyed. As for a matter of fact there are no OT ORIGINALS either they too were lost and destroyed.

We have copies of the originals which many claim are corrupt. Pick up any version you want and what you are holding is a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of an original that is lost and destroyed.

BUT God who is all powerful, all knowing, and everywhere gave his word, he would preserve his word from the time of David until today, and that includes all his words even if they had not been spoken, inspired or written at that time.

The historical writings of Moses were given him in the Mount along with the law. These first five books cover history that went back over 2000 years before him and covered the exodus and coming into the land. God then called Joshua and others to record more of Israel's history from the time of Moses until the time of the Kingdom and its fall until the Birth of Jesus Christ, from his life unto the crucifixion, resurrection and ascension. Then God used the Apostles, Luke and Paul to records Gods words since the time of Moses. Holy men of God were moved and wrote from the past until the time of John's Revelation of Jesus Christ coming into his Kingdom.

When David wrote,

Ps 12 6, 7 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.
It was a promise that His words would be preserved from that time and forever. Now either God has done that or he hasn't.

I chose to believe he has in the trade language of today which is English.

Where is that preserved Bible?

I will give you some hints in finding this elusive book of God's preserved words.

1) It has no copyright, no maps, no pictures.

2) It has a built in dictionary that defines every English word in it.

3) It has a built in supernatural cross reference that does not use book and chapter addresses as men's cross references versions do. But uses God's words, phrases, verses, and sections of His words as cross reference. In order to see that you have to read it and become very familiar with that preserved Bible to even become aware of it and use it.

4) It has Every verse in it. Unlike all of the 350 plus modern English translations out there today that have many different words, phrases, verses, and sections removed or changed in them because men believe they are in error, corrupt and not possibly written by the author. Oh but what they forgot was God gave them his word, in his word to preserve his words all of them forever. This point is stellar as there is one English version available today that has all the verses in it and you can go and buy it or if you are inclined could ask for a copy and it will be given you free.

Does the OP or anyone else know which Bible has ALL of God's word's in it that you can hold in your hand and put trust in that God that he did preserve it for you and I today?


edit on 1-2-2016 by ChesterJohn because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 1 2016 @ 04:23 PM
link   
No bait question why would anyone insult a perfectly legitimate question? Go out of his way to make me look bad, just for asking a reasonable question?
I don't have a problem with believers believing. I just want to hear what people think. So far so good.
We don't have the originals because(my personal theory) indeed because they were destroyed.
But most likely to hide truths deemed the equivalent of today's classified intel. Elites LOVE knowing more than the average citizen.
Somewhere it might still exist, and what it says might shake the world. Until then, we're left with the bible they gave us and thankfully we do have more texts and I have no doubt more will be found in the future. Can't effin eait for that. Good day.
edit on 1-2-2016 by areyousirius360 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 1 2016 @ 04:30 PM
link   
Furthermore, God uses inspiration, interpretation and secondary inspiration to preserve his words unto us today.

For those who do not believe in secondary inspiration you can see it in the NT when the Holy Spirit/Ghost allowed an author to restate an OT verse differently than in the preserved original OT. This gives us another understanding of how God teaches and leads us into his wisdom and knowledge.

Also you can find an example of it in Jeremiah (pay attention to the underlined verses)

Jer 36:1 ¶ And it came to pass in the fourth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, that this word came unto Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
2 Take thee a roll of a book, and write therein all the words that I have spoken unto thee against Israel, and against Judah, and against all the nations, from the day I spake unto thee, from the days of Josiah, even unto this day.
3 It may be that the house of Judah will hear all the evil which I purpose to do unto them; that they may return every man from his evil way; that I may forgive their iniquity and their sin.
4 Then Jeremiah called Baruch the son of Neriah: and Baruch wrote from the mouth of Jeremiah all the words of the LORD, which he had spoken unto him, upon a roll of a book.
5 And Jeremiah commanded Baruch, saying, I am shut up; I cannot go into the house of the LORD:
6 Therefore go thou, and read in the roll, which thou hast written from my mouth, the words of the LORD in the ears of the people in the LORD'S house upon the fasting day: and also thou shalt read them in the ears of all Judah that come out of their cities.
7 It may be they will present their supplication before the LORD, and will return every one from his evil way: for great is the anger and the fury that the LORD hath pronounced against this people.
8 And Baruch the son of Neriah did according to all that Jeremiah the prophet commanded him, reading in the book the words of the LORD in the LORD'S house.
9 ¶ And it came to pass in the fifth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, in the ninth month, that they proclaimed a fast before the LORD to all the people in Jerusalem, and to all the people that came from the cities of Judah unto Jerusalem.
10 Then read Baruch in the book the words of Jeremiah in the house of the LORD, in the chamber of Gemariah the son of Shaphan the scribe, in the higher court, at the entry of the new gate of the LORD'S house, in the ears of all the people.
11 When Michaiah the son of Gemariah, the son of Shaphan, had heard out of the book all the words of the LORD,
12 Then he went down into the king's house, into the scribe's chamber: and, lo, all the princes sat there, even Elishama the scribe, and Delaiah the son of Shemaiah, and Elnathan the son of Achbor, and Gemariah the son of Shaphan, and Zedekiah the son of Hananiah, and all the princes.
12 Then he went down into the king's house, into the scribe's chamber: and, lo, all the princes sat there, even Elishama the scribe, and Delaiah the son of Shemaiah, and Elnathan the son of Achbor, and Gemariah the son of Shaphan, and Zedekiah the son of Hananiah, and all the princes.
13 Then Michaiah declared unto them all the words that he had heard, when Baruch read the book in the ears of the people.
14 Therefore all the princes sent Jehudi the son of Nethaniah, the son of Shelemiah, the son of Cushi, unto Baruch, saying, Take in thine hand the roll wherein thou hast read in the ears of the people, and come. So Baruch the son of Neriah took the roll in his hand, and came unto them.
15 And they said unto him, Sit down now, and read it in our ears. So Baruch read it in their ears.
16 Now it came to pass, when they had heard all the words, they were afraid both one and other, and said unto Baruch, We will surely tell the king of all these words.
17 And they asked Baruch, saying, Tell us now, How didst thou write all these words at his mouth?
18 Then Baruch answered them, He pronounced all these words unto me with his mouth, and I wrote them with ink in the book.
19 Then said the princes unto Baruch, Go, hide thee, thou and Jeremiah; and let no man know where ye be.
20 ¶ And they went in to the king into the court, but they laid up the roll in the chamber of Elishama the scribe, and told all the words in the ears of the king.
21 So the king sent Jehudi to fetch the roll: and he took it out of Elishama the scribe's chamber. And Jehudi read it in the ears of the king, and in the ears of all the princes which stood beside the king.
22 Now the king sat in the winterhouse in the ninth month: and there was a fire on the hearth burning before him.
23 And it came to pass, that when Jehudi had read three or four leaves, he cut it with the penknife, and cast it into the fire that was on the hearth, until all the roll was consumed in the fire that was on the hearth.
24 Yet they were not afraid, nor rent their garments, neither the king, nor any of his servants that heard all these words.
25 Nevertheless Elnathan and Delaiah and Gemariah had made intercession to the king that he would not burn the roll: but he would not hear them.
26 But the king commanded Jerahmeel the son of Hammelech, and Seraiah the son of Azriel, and Shelemiah the son of Abdeel, to take Baruch the scribe and Jeremiah the prophet: but the LORD hid them.
27 Then the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah, after that the king had burned the roll, and the words which Baruch wrote at the mouth of Jeremiah, saying,
28 Take thee again another roll, and write in it all the former words that were in the first roll, which Jehoiakim the king of Judah hath burned.
29 And thou shalt say to Jehoiakim king of Judah, Thus saith the LORD; Thou hast burned this roll, saying, Why hast thou written therein, saying, The king of Babylon shall certainly come and destroy this land, and shall cause to cease from thence man and beast?
30 Therefore thus saith the LORD of Jehoiakim king of Judah; He shall have none to sit upon the throne of David: and his dead body shall be cast out in the day to the heat, and in the night to the frost.
31 And I will punish him and his seed and his servants for their iniquity; and I will bring upon them, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and upon the men of Judah, all the evil that I have pronounced against them; but they hearkened not.
32 Then took Jeremiah another roll, and gave it to Baruch the scribe, the son of Neriah; who wrote therein from the mouth of Jeremiah all the words of the book which Jehoiakim king of Judah had burned in the fire: and there were added besides unto them many like words.
So God spoke the word to Jeremiah who dictated it to Baruch who penned those words in a book called a roll. Then the king destroyed what was written by cutting it up and burning it. Then God commanded Jeremiah to write them again, so again Jeremiah hears the words dictates them to Baruch who writes the original words in another roll plus more. You will notice that God re-inspired (second inspiration) the words that were destroyed in the ORIGINAL but also added to it even more words to the original re-inspired words.


edit on 1-2-2016 by ChesterJohn because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 1 2016 @ 04:33 PM
link   
So Where are the original NT TEXT?

By now we all know and we need not argue about what had happened to them.

But we can rest assured God of truth kept his word and you can find his preserved word just as he intended them in the ORIGINALS today. And you can still have all his words and its truths in your hands now.

May God bless your reading and your study of his preserved word.


edit on 1-2-2016 by ChesterJohn because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 1 2016 @ 04:45 PM
link   
a reply to: ChesterJohn
Truth is we'll never know what they say/said if they even existed. Let the believers believe, and those with questions seek answers. If it's the Most Highs will,
Let it be true.




top topics



 
7
<< 6  7  8    10  11  12 >>

log in

join