New Testament original texts, where are they?

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

It is not just about Knowing him in a personal way through Jesus Christ his son, as it is that he is actively allowed to participate in the translation process.

One example of that is in how they put five uses of the name Jesus into the text where it was not in the Greek text. And two instances where they translated the Greek word Autos which is usually he/him/his to Jesus in the Authorized Version

a reply to: areyousirius360

A theory with no proof is an opinion

Who is making theories? The bible is a theory with no proof thus an opinion. Glass houses. Stones.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: areyousirius360

A theory with no proof is an opinion

FYI NO theory has proof, if it did have proof it would not be a theory, would it?
Proof of the existence of any god doesn't exist. Religions ARE theoretical by nature. If the bible proves God exists than every sacred texts in existence prove their Gods too.

a reply to: areyousirius360

So, what gives?

You're smarter than God and from hence forth, you should go
about proclaiming this through out the land. And the sea and
up to Heaven and where ever people won't be impressed.

a reply to: randyvs
Your a real genius that was so clever. Contribute to the topic and don't worry about how smart I am.

a reply to: areyousirius360

Your a real genius that was so clever. Contribute to the topic and don't worry about how smart I am.

Why should I worry about it?
If anyone should worry it should be God.

a reply to: areyousirius360

Actually there are Historical, Social and Scientific proofs that verify the texts of the Bible. Your opinion does not have any type of proofs.

Should we consider that any book we have today where the originals were lost or destroyed are not accurate and true?

Should we consider those books in error or as fiction because we don't have the originals?

I think not

originally posted by: ChesterJohn

I think not

Has that never occurred to you before? Ah, naturally, nevermind....

I don't think that there is any proof Jesus ever existed, or to support any of the Bible. That's what Faith is for.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: areyousirius360

Actually there are Historical, Social and Scientific proofs that verify the texts of the Bible.

I was wondering if you could tell me what the historical, social, and scientific proof is that you mention. I would be very interested because I have never heard of any proof for the Bible except the Bible. They mention a few historical kings but other than that, nothing.

a reply to: Rasalghul

Solomon described weather patterns were in a circut/circular, and that rain came from teh oceans went up into the air and fell as rain and returned to the sea were it came from originaly. He was proven a few thousand years later to be correct.

David said and declared the earth was round and it is.

The Bible described that there are more than one heaven, one that had clouds and the birds fly in, and one where the stars were. Thousands of years before science proved that there was limit to atmosphere of the earth. there is one more heaven called the abode of God but man has not proven it exists yet.

If you need the addresses in the Bible for these facts I will be glad to give them to you when I get home later tonight.

a reply to: ChesterJohn No I don't consider the bible evidence of itself. Astrology and astronomy were common since forever.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

You said scientific, social and historical proof. None of that exists. Clay fragments here and there is the most evidence of Solomon. Moses, Jesus, 12 Apostles, no evidence whatsoever outside the bible. Science doesn't support it either, the dinosaurs, evolution, both not biblical at all. Adam was made on the spot. No evolution in the bible.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

You wrote

QUOTE "Solomon described weather patterns were in a circut/circular, and that rain came from teh oceans went up into the air and fell as rain and returned to the sea were it came from originaly. He was proven a few thousand years later to be correct. David said and declared the earth was round and it is. The Bible described that there are more than one heaven, one that had clouds and the birds fly in, and one where the stars were. Thousands of years before science proved that there was limit to atmosphere of the earth..." UNQUOTE

I'm not sure what you mean by 'Solomon described' since the book of Qoheleth ('Ecclesiastes') is written in late (almost Mishnaic) Hebrew much later than the time of Solomon and what you meant by 'David said' since only a few Psalms are actually attributed in the Hebrew Bible to David himself. Many for example are 'of the sons of Korah' etc.

But looking for modern scientific confirmation or proof in the pre-scientific Hebrew & Greek scriptures of Christians and Jews in general is something of a fruitless effort - especially since the biblical writers (whoever they were) were living in pre-scientific times and seemed to have accepted their contemporary non-Jewish cosmological (i.e. pre-scientific) beliefs of neighboring countries about the shape of the earth, and the layout of the universe in general.

Let's start at their general view of the physical world.

The image (roughly) was of an endless Void or Abyss (Heb תְּהוֹם Tehom or 'watery chaos' etymologically related to Tiamat the Babylonian Monster of Chaos) at the bottom from which emerged Sheol (Heb שְׁאוֹל 'the pit') and 7 foundational columns holding up a flat earth which is (to their reckoning) covered by a solid dome (Heb. רָקִיעַ Req'iak = 'hammered bowl') in which the sun, moon and stars were placed, with 'waters above the Dome (or 'firmament') separated from 'the waters below the Dome (possibly to explain why the Dome is of a blue colour).

In this schema, the fixed, flat earth is at the centre of the complex - here are some of the source material for such a conception in the Hebrew Bible

וַיֹּאמֶר אֱלֹהִים, יְהִי רָקִיעַ בְּתוֹךְ הַמָּיִם, וִיהִי מַבְדִּיל, בֵּין מַיִם לָמָיִם
לָרָקִיעַ; וַיְהִי-כֵן וַיַּעַשׂ אֱלֹהִים, אֶת-הָרָקִיעַ, וַיַּבְדֵּל בֵּין הַמַּיִם אֲשֶׁר מִתַּחַת לָרָקִיעַ, וּבֵין הַמַּיִם אֲשֶׁר מֵעַל
וַיִּקְרָא אֱלֹהִים לָרָקִיעַ, שָׁמָיִם; וַיְהִי-עֶרֶב וַיְהִי-בֹקֶר, יוֹם שֵׁנִי
וַיֹּאמֶר אֱלֹהִים, יִקָּווּ הַמַּיִם מִתַּחַת הַשָּׁמַיִם אֶל-מָקוֹם אֶחָד, וְתֵרָאֶה, הַיַּבָּשָׁה; וַיְהִי-
וַיִּקְרָא אֱלֹהִים לַיַּבָּשָׁה אֶרֶץ, וּלְמִקְוֵה הַמַּיִם קָרָא יַמִּים

Genesis 1:6-8: "And Elohim said, Let there be a Dome in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And Elohim made Dome, and divided the waters which were under the Dome from the waters which were above the Dome - and it was so. And Elohim called the Dome, 'Heaven.' And the evening and the morning were the second day. And Elohim said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. And Elohim called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas..."

Raqia derives from the Hebrew verb 'raqa', which means "to beat," "stamp on," "beat out" and "spread out." Occurring 11 times in the Old Testament, raqa has the meaning to "stamp one's feet" or to stamp something with the feet or the spreading out of pounded metal (4 times), spreading out the earth (3 times) etc.

The Hebrew writers were freely forming their own Creation Myths (see Gen 1 :1 to 2:4a and 2:4b to 4:26) from the earlier and more sophisticated ancient Sumerian creation myths (later taken over both by Assyrians and Babylonians) provide a picture of the universe's (Anki) creation. The Sumerians believed that a primeval sea (Abzu) existed before anything else and that the heaven (an) and the earth (ki) were formed within it.

The boundary between the primeval sea and the earth (a flat disk) was a solid vault, within which was the gas-like atmosphere (lil). The stars, planets, sun, and moon were embedded into this solid vault Each of the four major Sumerian deities was associated with one of these regions; An (god of heaven), Ki (goddess of earth, also known as Ninhursag, Ninmah, or Nintu), Enlil (god of the air, son of An and Ki), and Enki (god of the primeval sea).

The cosmological view of the Hebrew writings likewise involved a solid vault or hammered out Dome over the
earth which contained floodgates which could be opened to produce floods or closed to produce drought.

see: Gen 7:11b-12
בַּיּוֹם הַזֶּה נִבְקְעוּ כָּל-מַעְיְנֹת תְּהוֹם רַבָּה, וַאֲרֻבֹּת הַשָּׁמַיִם, נִפְתָּחוּ

"On the same day were all the fountains of the Great Deep broken up and the Windows of Heaven were opened...'

See also Gen 8:2 "The fountains also of the deep and the windows of heaven were stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained."

The author(s) of Genesis believed that the floodgates were physically closed, the rain stopped and the flood drained away
Later in Joshua 10:12-13: we see Joshua literally controlling the 'movement' of the sun so he can finish a battle, which again is pre-scientific pre-supposing that the sun revolves around the earth.

"Then spoke Joshua to YHWH in the day when YHWH delivered up the Amorites before the faces of the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon. And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies...."

Here, the sun and the moon were both believed to have stopped moving so the Jews could finish a battle.

This speaks again of a stationary earth and moving sun - another pre-scientific Jewish myth (like talking snakes or Hebrew speaking donkeys)

In the poetical sections to the book of Job (chapters 3-40) in Job 26:7:7 we see the earth supported by 'Eloah' who "stretches out the north over the expanse, and hangs the earth upon the Beli ('the wearing out')."

נֹטֶה צָפוֹן עַל-תֹּהוּ;

תֹּלֶה אֶרֶץ, עַל-בְּלִי-מָה

Isaiah 40:22 talks about the flat Earth in the form of a circular pancake shape which is covered by the dome of heaven like tent curtains:

הַיֹּשֵׁב עַל-חוּג הָאָרֶץ, וְיֹשְׁבֶיהָ כַּחֲגָבִים; הַנּוֹטֶה כַדֹּק שָׁמַיִם, וַיִּמְתָּחֵם כָּאֹהֶל לָשָׁבֶת.

"It is he that sits upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants of it are as grasshoppers; that stretches out the heavens as a curtain, and spreads them out as a tent to dwell in."

Moving away from cosmology for a moment, there are a number of curious zoological errors in the Torah

e.g. Lev 11:20-21: “All fowls that creep, going upon all four, shall be toqebah ('hateful') to you.”

Clearly there are no fowls on earth that creep on all four legs.

Deut 14:7: ” “…as the camel, and the hare, and the rabbit: for they chew the cud, but divide not the hoof.”

This is wrong on both counts: Hares don’t chew the cud and camels do indeed divide the “hoof.”

This list could go on for a long time; either way any attempt to use modern science to uphold the Weltanschauung of the Bible is bound to come a cropper sooner or later, since the writers did not have access to modern scientific facts.

a reply to: Rasalghul

welcome back areyousirius369/gnosisisfaith you have had to set a record for the most accounts in one week.

good luck with that

There are 2 cannons that are the oldest and still around.

1) The Codex Vatinicus is in Rome Italy.
2) The Codex Sinacitus is in England.

a reply to: sdcigarpig

And they are hundreds of years past the ad 1 point.

a reply to: Rasalghul

oh yeah let's not forget you double personality as Gabriel69 as well