FBI Release full unedited video of Finicum shooting

a reply to: SkyNetBeware

That is the thinking that got finicum to put himself into a dangerous situation.p and get killed. He's an idiot.

Awwwww... because those po' widdle feds with all the resources in the country had no other choices?

The feds had all the information... all the power... all the control. They did what they did knowing exactly what the outcome would be. They ambushed and killed a man. They created the dangerous situation.

a reply to: tweetie

Thanks, missed that. Guess they deployed it a little late ?

Also apparently it is standard procedure to have barricades close to bends to stop planning how to avoid it so we can scrap that even if it seems illogical when it puts people behind the barricade at risk

originally posted by: Boadicea
The feds were in complete control of how that situation was set up. Are we supposed to believe they're just incompetent idiots who didn't know the consequences of that trap? Or are we to believe that they knew exactly what they were doing: Leading a man to his death.

If they were in complete control how did they know he was going to run away from the initial stop? The only man who died was the one who fled, jumped out of his vehicle and put his hands to his waist. If killing was the intention why didn't they kill all of them? Or certainly Ammon Bundy?

The feds bent over backwards in dealing with this situation and didn't act until the state of Oregon insisted.

a reply to: pteridine

Mr. Finicum had every opportunity to surrender peacefully and chose not to avail himself of those opportunities. His actions had consequences and his reckless behavior was the cause of his demise.

The Feds had every opportunity to cease and desist their abuses of power which provoked this standoff... the Feds had every opportunity to negotiate, discuss, and settle this dispute peacefully... the feds had every opportunity to respect the will and authority of the duly elected sheriff they were going to meet... the feds had every opportunity to find a peaceful and fair resolution to the matter. They chose not to avail themselves of those opportunities. Their actions have consequences, and their criminal and abusive behavior was the cause of his demise.

What if you are a felon that has run a roadblock with innocents in your vehicle, only to discover a second roadblock and, in your desperation to escape, tried to go around it and got stuck in the snow?

What if our federal agents create a dangerous and imminently lethal situation, with innocents in the vehicle, only to kill and make a public example of anyone who dares cross their badass selves?

What if you then emerged from your vehicle and ran around waving your arms and not paying attention to the officers' instructions?

What if color of law gives those responsible for "serving and protecting the public" the power to put someone in a no-win situation in which no matter what he does, they can claim "officers lives were threatened!" and kill him like a rabid dog?

What if you reached for the loaded gun in your belt and then "triple-dog dared" the officer charged with arresting you to do something about it?

What if they shot him first and when he reflexively and instinctively reached for the wound they claimed "Oh no! He might have a gun" and shoot him dead?

Finicum made his choices and got the results he wanted.

The feds made their choices and got the result they wanted.

Whether he felt his actions were honorable and courageous or not doesn't matter. Whether he put his life on the line for his convictions or personal pride doesn't matter. He was a serious threat to others and that is why he was shot.

It doesn't matter to you. It matters a whole lot to many people -- including me. The out-of-control feds and their agencies are a serious threat to all of us, and that is why I refuse to excuse their crimes and abuse of power. Mr. Finicum was never a threat to me, and never will be now. The feds are still a threat to all of us.

a reply to: SkyNetBeware

Why do you keep saying goodbye but then you stick around?

I said why in the first sentence of my post.

Seriously? You have to be pointed at parts of the Constitution where the legislature is empowered with the rights to create law?

No, I wanted you to provide that and here's why:
Let's look at some key words from what you quoted and presented out of context.

for carrying into execution the foregoing powers

...and what foregoing powers is this referring to? Well, that would be the 17 powers listed in the same clause. Funny, I don't see anything in there about FBI, BLM or even Police for that matter.

I think you are one of the people who would benefit from more listening and reading, and less talking and writing.

Ha, I am thinking the same about you now that you mention it. You sure do assume alot. Like how much I listen and read. And how do you know if I even vote? Frankly, I really don't care if you choose to stay ignorant on this topic so have at it.

a reply to: DelMarvel

If they were in complete control how did they know he was going to run away from the initial stop?

If they didn't expect him to run away from the initial stop, then why did they have the road block up ahead? (And, incidentally, it seems to me that shooting at him with his EMPTY hands and head out of the car is a pretty good clue that the person will take flight.) It's an instinctive response to danger, often called fight or flight instincts. Perhaps you've heard of it? The feds knew exactly what was going to happen.

The only man who died was the one who fled, jumped out of his vehicle and put his hands to his waist.

The only man who died was the only one who showed any concern for the women in the vehicle, and the only one to do anything to protect them from the danger -- posed by the feds, NOT him.

If killing was the intention why didn't they kill all of them?

Very good question. I would say that they sure tried to kill most... but failed miserably. And I'm pretty sure one or two were working for the feds...

Or certainly Ammon Bundy?

You assume Ammon is who/what he appears to be. I'm not so sure...

The feds bent over backwards in dealing with this situation and didn't act until the state of Oregon insisted.

The feds bent over backwards in dealing with this situation to cover their own butts, and didn't act until they knew it was about to be blown sky high at that meeting in John Day they were on their way to, at the invitation of the duly elected Sheriff. The feds do what they will; they don't take their marching orders from the states.

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: pteridine

Mr. Finicum had every opportunity to surrender peacefully and chose not to avail himself of those opportunities. His actions had consequences and his reckless behavior was the cause of his demise.

The Feds had every opportunity to cease and desist their abuses of power which provoked this standoff..

So the "feds" should let people out of jail and turn over a hundred year old wildlife refuge to private interests because men show up with guns? How would that system of governance work moving forward?

originally posted by: Boadicea
What if our federal agents create a dangerous and imminently lethal situation, with innocents in the vehicle,

This is the weakest argument of all. These men showed up for an armed standoff talking about fighting to the death with the "innocents" with them. They're the ones responsible for putting them in danger. They're the ones who foolishly left the building with them in the vehicles. This stupidity has nothing to do with whether or not their cause was justified.

You: ..and what foregoing powers is this referring to? Well, that would be the 17 powers listed in the same clause. Funny, I don't see anything in there about FBI, BLM or even Police for that matter.

Good lord! You are an extremist.

Why waste our time with games?

Why didn't you just make your position known in the first place?

"...provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States"

The Supreme Court has validated all this. Are you one of those sovereign idiots? Ok, I'm done wasting time on you.

a reply to: DelMarvel

So the "feds" should let people out of jail and turn over a hundred year old wildlife refuge to private interests because men show up with guns? How would that system of governance work moving forward?

Because that's their one and only option? No.

However, the feds have been harrassing and inflicting harm on the Hammonds and their ranch for decades, the charges were bogus from the start, and did not meet the mens rhea standard, so neither the charges NOR the extended sentence they demanded were in any just or righteous. The men never should have been returned to prison, and this situation never would have happened.

This is the weakest argument of all. These men showed up for an armed standoff talking about fighting to the death with the "innocents" with them. They're the ones responsible for putting them in danger. They're the ones who foolishly left the building with them in the vehicles. This stupidity has nothing to do with whether or not their cause was justified.

These men showed up for an armed standoff only because they know (knew) full well the bully tactics and thug mentality of the feds from past experience. Up to and including cold blooded murder. And the feds have proven them 100% right. No one made the feds do anything. The feds created the situation, perpetuated the situation, and escalated the situation.

I make no excuses for Finicum's past words and actions. And I'm sure not going to make any excuses for the feds past words and actions. Nor ongoing and future ones.

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: pteridine

Mr. Finicum had every opportunity to surrender peacefully and chose not to avail himself of those opportunities. His actions had consequences and his reckless behavior was the cause of his demise.

The Feds had every opportunity to cease and desist their abuses of power which provoked this standoff... the Feds had every opportunity to negotiate, discuss, and settle this dispute peacefully... the feds had every opportunity to respect the will and authority of the duly elected sheriff they were going to meet... the feds had every opportunity to find a peaceful and fair resolution to the matter. They chose not to avail themselves of those opportunities. Their actions have consequences, and their criminal and abusive behavior was the cause of his demise.

What if you are a felon that has run a roadblock with innocents in your vehicle, only to discover a second roadblock and, in your desperation to escape, tried to go around it and got stuck in the snow?

What if our federal agents create a dangerous and imminently lethal situation, with innocents in the vehicle, only to kill and make a public example of anyone who dares cross their badass selves?

What if you then emerged from your vehicle and ran around waving your arms and not paying attention to the officers' instructions?

What if color of law gives those responsible for "serving and protecting the public" the power to put someone in a no-win situation in which no matter what he does, they can claim "officers lives were threatened!" and kill him like a rabid dog?

What if you reached for the loaded gun in your belt and then "triple-dog dared" the officer charged with arresting you to do something about it?

What if they shot him first and when he reflexively and instinctively reached for the wound they claimed "Oh no! He might have a gun" and shoot him dead?

Finicum made his choices and got the results he wanted.

The feds made their choices and got the result they wanted.

Whether he felt his actions were honorable and courageous or not doesn't matter. Whether he put his life on the line for his convictions or personal pride doesn't matter. He was a serious threat to others and that is why he was shot.

It doesn't matter to you. It matters a whole lot to many people -- including me. The out-of-control feds and their agencies are a serious threat to all of us, and that is why I refuse to excuse their crimes and abuse of power. Mr. Finicum was never a threat to me, and never will be now. The feds are still a threat to all of us.

Who threatened and intimidated the rangers at the wildlife preserve? The Bundites. Who were the armed invaders occupying the Reserve and preventing citizens from enjoying the preserve? The Bundites. Who chose to use the Hammonds as a rallying point even after the Hammonds told them to go away? The Bundites. Who was in constant contact with the FBI and other authorities for a month while they negotiated? The Bundites. Who disturbed the Paiute artifacts and caused the tribe to complain? The Bundites.
It seems that the felons had every opportunity to leave peacefully and chose not to. It seems that LaVoy decided that this would be a good place to make a last stand for some reason. The Bundys wanted to graze their cattle on government land and not pay us, as their contract stated. They were protesting because they wanted a free ride and LaVoy talked himself into believing it was about "the Constitution" when it was just about the Bundy fortune.
The Feds didn't get what they wanted. They wanted everybody arrested and shuffling into court in orange jumpsuits. Finicum's demise was not part of their plan; he was a nobody that they may have turned into a martyr--which seems to be what he wanted.

a reply to: SkyNetBeware

Frustrating isn't it.

a reply to: SkyNetBeware
I'm an extremist?!! Good lord! Thanks for telling me or I might never have known!

Games? This is no game. This is reality.

"...provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States" The Supreme Court has validated all this.

Really? When?

Are you one of those sovereign idiots?

No

Ok, I'm done wasting time on you.

The feeling is mutual.

Self censorship..

originally posted by: Boadicea

These men showed up for an armed standoff only because they know (knew) full well the bully tactics and thug mentality of the feds from past experience. Up to and including cold blooded murder.

And believing this they brought their families with them? Completely irresponsible regardless of their cause.

As for the "innocents" in the vehicles weren't they all adults? Victoria Sharp was 18. How can she or her family claim they didn't know what they were getting involved in? Even if it was naivety that wouldn't be an excuse that would fly for any other 18 year old in the country involved in criminal activity. Yet she and a number of others were able to walk.

a reply to: pteridine

"We shall know them by the fruits of their labor." Believe what you will... and ignore what you will.

For the same reason and logic you want to hold the Bundy's and Mr. Finicum and others accountable for past actions and provocations, I demand the feds be held accountable for past actions and provocations. You seem to have a problem with that.

When everyone has left the refuge... when the feds have arrested everyone they want to arrest... are you going to demand the same accountability for the feds? I seriously doubt it, as you have expressed aboslutely no outrage for federal abuses, but demand full retribution for everyone else. And it's exactly because of those who will give a free pass to the feds, and who aid and abet and empower their abuse of power, that we are in this situation, and why I (and many others) refuse to "stand down."

a reply to: OveRcuRrEnteD

I'm an extremist?!! Good lord! Thanks for telling me or I might never have known!

Wear it as a badge of honor.

"I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice! And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue!" -- Barry Goldwater

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: OveRcuRrEnteD

I'm an extremist?!! Good lord! Thanks for telling me or I might never have known!

Wear it as a badge of honor.

"I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice! And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue!" -- Barry Goldwater

Goldwater was rejected. You're not doing it for Liberty, but for privilege as you trample the liberties of others.

a reply to: DelMarvel

And believing this they brought their families with them? Completely irresponsible regardless of their cause.

I actually agree with this. At least as far as underage children. Adults have to make their own decisions.

As for the "innocents" in the vehicles weren't they all adults? Victoria Sharp was 18.

I really don't understand your point. So if they're an adult, they can't be innocent?

How can she or her family claim they didn't know what they were getting involved in?

Maybe they didn't understand just how bloodthirsty the feds are. Maybe they believed civil disobedience doesn't deserve a death penalty. Maybe they thought the right to life still meant something in this country.

Even if it was naivety that wouldn't be an excuse that would fly for any other 18 year old in the country involved in criminal activity. Yet she and a number of others were able to walk.

And yet you have made countless excuses for the criminal activity of the feds, but would hold an innocent teenager to a higher standard then the feds.

a reply to: SkyNetBeware

There you go again (in my best Reagan voice)... stating as fact what you cannot know.

I am trampling no one's liberties. You, however, are excusing and glorifying those who are trampling the rights of the people, including life and liberty. Thank you. Good to know.

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: DelMarvel

And believing this they brought their families with them? Completely irresponsible regardless of their cause.

I actually agree with this. At least as far as underage children. Adults have to make their own decisions.

As for the "innocents" in the vehicles weren't they all adults? Victoria Sharp was 18.

I really don't understand your point. So if they're an adult, they can't be innocent?

How can she or her family claim they didn't know what they were getting involved in?

Maybe they didn't understand just how bloodthirsty the feds are. Maybe they believed civil disobedience doesn't deserve a death penalty. Maybe they thought the right to life still meant something in this country.

Even if it was naivety that wouldn't be an excuse that would fly for any other 18 year old in the country involved in criminal activity. Yet she and a number of others were able to walk.

And yet you have made countless excuses for the criminal activity of the feds, but would hold an innocent teenager to a higher standard then the feds.

Us code says threat of violence in breaking fed law is domestic terrorism. Not civil disobedience. I applaud protesters in general, but not when they threaten violence to sway public policy. Had finicum surrendered properly he would be alive.