Oregon protest leader Ammon Bundy is arrested, says source

a reply to: Robcr11

We don't know for sure why a life was taken but if a gun was pointed at a fed or any other law enforcement they had every reason to shoot. '

IF a gun was pointed at a fed -- that's a big "if."

Even then, if one has any respect for the right to life... and or life itself... then they have every reason to do everything possible to NOT shoot.

originally posted by: Flyingclaydisk
I believe there are a number of questions which remain unanswered which will shed considerable light on the arrest.

First of all, Finicum arrived in Oregon in a US Government truck (plates and all). This much is known. Finicum was not a government employee. How he came into possession of this vehicle is unknown. If he was foolish enough to have driven this same vehicle to the community meeting not only would he have been thought to have been armed, but also likely believed to have been in possession of stolen federal property (the vehicle).

This simple fact would change (considerably) the complexion and demeanor of law enforcement in the process of an arrest.

U.S. Government plates, huh? That's quite intriguing. Do you recall where you read/heard that? I heard something similar about McConnell (the driver who said Finicum charged the officers). I'm wondering if I misunderstood something or mixed the two up. I tried to search it myself, but I'm not finding anything.

a reply to: Boadicea

Here's one source...

Just a few days into the occupation, he came barreling to the refuge entrance in a federal truck.

Source

You may not be getting things confused. In fact, it was this very alleged witness statement which made me bring the truck subject up. McConnell's statement seems to suggest Finnicum may have been driving this same vehicle during the stop. If true, this would be a clear and intentional provocation to authorities (in my mind anyway).

You have to remember where Finnicum is from...Colorado City, AZ. Do you know who else was from there? A rather unsavory fella by the name of Warren Jeffs. Warren Jeffs as you may know is the (former) leader of the Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints church. This is the same guy who thought plural marriages (polygamy) and getting 13 year old girls pregnant was a great idea.

ETA...and before anyone gets all excited, this isn't just a coincidence. Colorado City, AZ is a 'closed' city where outsiders are actively shunned. It is situated in a rather lawless area along the border between AZ and UT, and all manner of unusual beliefs and practices take place there...beliefs and practices which line up perfectly with some of the ramblings of Finnicum himself.

a reply to: Gryphon66

Listen here you, I have no pre-existing agenda or belief systems related to this other than being born and bred a card carrying member of The USA with an outstanding love of nature and my country.

Furthermore I LOVE American grown food and know by my families history that we are the back bone of America *Farmers, growers, ranchers* Step aside from your prejudice against those who are ready, wiling and able to fight for the right to keep our lands from falling into the hands of global corporate business and out of the hands of those who would keep agriculture in America.

China would love your attitude, take all of our land from us, place humans in stacked up housing *like they do* and save the open lands for china to move in and build polluting factories and animal death camps to feed their billions and growing...

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: Indigo5

Yes, but LaVoy was the one who made that an either/or situation when he reached for his gun.

So the feds who killed him say... but saying it doesn't make it so. They made the choice to shoot and kill him. Neither of us were there. Neither of us know what happened.

True, but that is the FBI's account and they have publicly and clearly stated they have clear video footage showing LaVoy exiting the vehicle and reaching for a gun in his waistband while shouting at police.
It would seem painfully logical to me if that was not the case, they would not announce they have clear video footage showing the same. If their was a conspiracy of lies, they would look to avoid actual video proof, not offer it.

All witnesses agree that Mr. Finicum did stop the vehicle...

By swerving into and striking a snowbank when confronted with a roadblock.

and Ms. Sharp said he was shot at without provocation when he did so. He asked the officers to let the women out of the vehicle. The vehicle was shot to hell WHILE STOPPED -- not while fleeing.

So says one 18 year old girl and passenger laying flat on the rear floorboards..I do not know the full accounting of bullets or the when and where, but listening to that girls account, it seems unreliable IMO.

The more I think about it, the more convinced I am that when Mr. Finicum left the vehicle, he did so to make himself a target and protect the others in the vehicle. As Ms. Sharp said, when they shot at Mr. Finicum with his EMPTY hands and head outside the window, asking the officers to let the women out, they knew their lives were already in danger. If the vehicle is in the condition Ms. Sharp indicated it is, then Mr. Finicum was a hero.

To be clear...AFTER the car was first stopped and the Feds and Swat etc. asked him to exit the vehicle....He sped away with that 18 year old girl in the car, to facilitate HIS OWN escape and avoid arrest (she was in no danger of arrest) and knowing full well the severe danger he was putting her and his passengers in by fleeing arrest at a high speed..

No doubt the "heated" or "emotional" conversation between himself and passengers that was alluded to by some accounts during that time speeding away likely centered on exactly that danger he was putting them in so that he could avoid arrest.

No hero there, but you can tell yourself whatever comforts your opinion.

How is it that the fine men and women who put their lives on the line for us in the FBI, as well as the Oregon State Police, as well as County Deputies are all painted here as hive-minded jackbooted thug-drones with no human compassion in situations like this, while urban police in the inner cities who are shown time and time again to actually go way over the line in terms of use of deadly force are always given an automatic pass or at least a hell of a lot more benefit of the doubt than is being shown here?

The FBI, Oregon State Police and County LEOS are not all the Nazi-Drone-Killbots that some of you are portraying them to be.

Some of you should be ashamed of yourselves; you're letting your anti-government ideology go far beyond any reasonable limit.

a reply to: Indigo5

This would appear to be the most accurate version of the incident (at this point)...based on all accounts.

It also seems to make the most sense.

a reply to: antar

Here, you dropped your hat Yosemite ...

Guess what ... I'm just as much a loyal American as you are, bud. You're not ready, willing and able to fight for anything aside from your own trumped up prejudices fed to you by the mainstream media outlets of YOUR choice (fairly obviously rabid right wing). You and yours do NOT have any sort of lock on patriotism and in fact, you are working against the very Constitution and Country you claim to love. All you're doing is spouting propaganda.

So back up ...

a reply to: Indigo5

Just wanted to say thanks for your well thought-out post. It seems that logic and reason are not dead.

I've got to get out of here before I say something I can't take back.

Cheers everyone. Go hug your families and be glad you're safe.

a reply to: Gryphon66

They should release the video if they want to put it to rest. Just saying they have video alone proves nothing. Release it (it will come out in court anyways right?) and we will give it a rest. Or will we get another dose of the usual, stalling for two years until it is off most peoples minds, then it finally comes out in court and contradicts what the LEO's account was entirely.

After all, this is usually how it plays out when the video contradicts the account, delay for years until court forces it out.

originally posted by: Flyingclaydisk
a reply to: Indigo5

This would appear to be the most accurate version of the incident (at this point)...based on all accounts.

It also seems to make the most sense.

The accounting also aligns with the interviews and talks LaVoy gave which I watched. Specifically the NBC interview where he pretty clearly articulated that he would never be taken alive and would never spend a single night in a "concrete box" etc.

We will never know if he actually would have pulled the trigger if they had let him draw, but I do believe his intent was to die rather than be arrested. He clearly said in interviews that would be his intent and choice if that moment came.

I do not begrudge the officer who shot and killed him. It was either to protect another officer from being shot or themselves. No one wants to be responsible for a fellow cop dyeing because they gambled that LaVoy wouldn't actually shoot. In that situation, gambling isn't an option.

That said..from watching interviews and video of LaVoy? I "liked" the guy...he was likable...just lost and led astray and a little bit angry at the direction his life had taken. I really do blame Bundy for encouraging and exploiting that for his own agenda and celebrity purposes. Ammon Bundy is partly to blame for LaVoy's death.

originally posted by: AmericanRealist
a reply to: Gryphon66

They should release the video if they want to put it to rest.

That is easy to say whilst following on the internet and youtube...

Not so much if you are family of or close to LaVoy..Having his death publicly broadcast to satisfy the internet masses?

A wife or daughter or close friend...watching him die over and over forever on the news and internet?

Believe it or not there are real live people struggling greatly right now over his death..one of them is likely even the unfortunate Cop or Agent that pulled the trigger.

I certainly want the truth to be indisputably made clear, but I sincerely hope that can be done without publicly releasing the video of the man dying for internet and news media consumption..

My suggestion is a closed audience of friends or family who might question the evidence and choose to see the video.

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

You may not be getting things confused. In fact, it was this very alleged witness statement which made me bring the truck subject up. McConnell's statement seems to suggest Finnicum may have been driving this same vehicle during the stop. If true, this would be a clear and intentional provocation to authorities (in my mind anyway).

Thank you! It's exactly that kind of stuff that makes this so befuddling to me. Why would the Bundy's et al even accept him as an ally if he arrived in a federal vehicle? Where did he get it? Did he steal it? So weird...

You have to remember where Finnicum is from...Colorado City, AZ. Do you know who else was from there? A rather unsavory fella by the name of Warren Jeffs. Warren Jeffs as you may know is the (former) leader of the Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints church. This is the same guy who thought plural marriages (polygamy) and getting 13 year old girls pregnant was a great idea.

ETA...and before anyone gets all excited, this isn't just a coincidence. Colorado City, AZ is a 'closed' city where outsiders are actively shunned. It is situated in a rather lawless area along the border between AZ and UT, and all manner of unusual beliefs and practices take place there...beliefs and practices which line up perfectly with some of the ramblings of Finnicum himself.

Yes, I read yesterday that he had recently moved from Paulden to near Colorado City and it sent shivers down my spine. Living in AZ, I'm very familiar with Colorado City and that sick pervert Jeffs. I don't know exactly where Finicum's ranch is, or if he's associated with Colorado City, but I do know that Colorado City has very limited access. It's on the north side of the Grand Canyon, just south of Utah, and by vehicle has to be approached from Utah. As I understand it, due to the terrain, the folks in Colorado City (and, presumably, Finicum's ranch) can see anyone coming long before they get there, including law enforcement.

a reply to: Indigo5

True, but that is the FBI's account and they have publicly and clearly stated they have clear video footage showing LaVoy exiting the vehicle and reaching for a gun in his waistband while shouting at police.
It would seem painfully logical to me if that was not the case, they would not announce they have clear video footage showing the same. If their was a conspiracy of lies, they would look to avoid actual video proof, not offer it.

Talk is cheap. It would seem painfully logical to me if that was the case, they would be announcing the release of the video -- not talking about maybe releasing the video. And it would be released immediately -- not after they have plenty of time to edit and/or doctor the video.

All witnesses agree that Mr. Finicum did stop the vehicle...

By swerving into and striking a snowbank when confronted with a roadblock.

To be clear...AFTER the car was first stopped and the Feds and Swat etc. asked him to exit the vehicle....He sped away...

So you do know that Mr. Finicum did stop the vehicle... and he fled the scene AFTER being shot at for no good reason.

...with that 18 year old girl in the car, to facilitate HIS OWN escape and avoid arrest (she was in no danger of arrest) and knowing full well the severe danger he was putting her and his passengers in by fleeing arrest at a high speed..

To facilitate HIS OWN escape? Or to protect the others from being shot by rogue law enforcement? Perhaps he knew "full well the severe danger" they were already in because they'd already been shot at.

The feds can end the speculation right now. We know they killed someone. It's up to them to provide the affirmative defense to prove it was justified.

a reply to: Indigo5

According to the FBI and other officers on the scene, LaVoy Finnicum exited the vehicle, charged the officers and reached for his gun that he had tucked into his front waist-belt. The FBI is weighing releasing the video and has straight-up said they have clear video of the shooting….a claim they would not make unless true and they could solidly back it up.

Just beleeeve…

The official story always has the kid running at police. Until the video comes out.

They got one here too, and won't show it until its been properly blurred, pixilated and useless.

Meanwhile, just beleeeve…

a reply to: pteridine

Your claim is one story from one person who was in the Bundy group.

Its her claim, not mine. Sooner believe that than some press release from official statements made by the FBI department , none of which were there.

a reply to: Gryphon66

How is it that the fine men and women who put their lives on the line for us in the FBI, as well as the Oregon State Police, as well as County Deputies are all painted here as hive-minded jackbooted thug-drones with no human compassion in situations like this, while urban police in the inner cities who are shown time and time again to actually go way over the line in terms of use of deadly force are always given an automatic pass or at least a hell of a lot more benefit of the doubt than is being shown here?

I'm an equal-opportunity rogue law enforcement hater...

And it actually hurts my heart that good, conscientious, responsible law enforcement is painted with the same brush as rogue, sociopathic killers hiding behind a badge.

But that's what happens when we cannot and do not hold the rogues to account.

a reply to: Boadicea

My opinion.

There's little to no evidence here of any "roguelike" behavior on the part of law enforcement in this case.

We spoke of this yesterday, I am pained that this man died for no reason ... except that ... it seems like he had an intention to do so. It's not too hard for me to see that he didn't value his own life or the life of his daughters/foster kids in the truck with him. I know it sounds hopelessly old-fashioned, but to my mind, a real man just would not have had his kids or any other women/children anywhere near this stupid mess.

Just wouldn't happen.

No matter what his (to my mind) crazy beliefs told him, he had no right (and would not have) placed his loved ones in that situation ... unless ... he was willing to sacrifice them for "the cause" as well.

I came across a few photos of where the car went into the snow bank, you can see the tracks, which are mixed in with a whole bunch of other pictures related to this story. There's 79 photos right now and only a few are of where the shoot-out occurred. There's a lot of broken glass in the road and as well as some stains. I went through all 79 images. More may be added at some point.

Pictures

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: Boadicea

My opinion.

There's little to no evidence here of any "roguelike" behavior on the part of law enforcement in this case.

There's little to no evidence here of pretty much anything. Except that a man was killed by law enforcement.

We spoke of this yesterday, I am pained that this man died for no reason ... except that ... it seems like he had an intention to do so.

He had made it very clear that he would -- and probably expected to -- give his life for his cause. If he was shot at without provocation when he initially stopped the vehicle, and truly felt that the lives of everyone in that vehicle were in danger, then he did have a reason for making himself a target.

It's not too hard for me to see that he didn't value his own life or the life of his daughters/foster kids in the truck with him.

I'm pretty sure that wasn't his daughter in the vehicle. I asked you in another post where you read that, but I guess you didn't see that. I found a Kansas City Star article that said she was from Kansas, and that her family had gone to the refuge to perform for the protesters.

Ah! Found it again: Kansas woman found herself inside Oregon gunbattle

No matter what his (to my mind) crazy beliefs told him, he had no right (and would not have) placed his loved ones in that situation ... unless ... he was willing to sacrifice them for "the cause" as well.

Yeah, I find that thought very disturbing as well. I was relieved to think Ms. Sharp isn't his daughter; but she is someone's daughter. It's all such a mess. I wouldn't say his beliefs were crazy, but I do think his beliefs were flawed. Not to mention his methods.