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...But I'll defend to the death, your right to say it...

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posted on Jan, 26 2016 @ 08:23 PM
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originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: Kali74

I don't think government is the only element that can infringe upon your rights.

If I don't allow you into my restaurant because of your color, then that is also an infringement.


I think that's your right too, I wouldn't want to spend my money in an establishment like that anyway. It's your business that suffers as a result not mine.




posted on Jan, 26 2016 @ 08:24 PM
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a reply to: DBCowboy

No. You are violating Public Accommodations laws. The person you are denying access to is still protected by those laws, you haven't removed those laws from State or Federal Code and you haven't suddenly become the government and granted yourself the authority to arrest her.



posted on Jan, 26 2016 @ 08:27 PM
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a reply to: Kali74

Bam! It's still not okay to break the law because we think we're doing good?

We're dragging all kinds of closeted despotism out into the open this evening, eh?



posted on Jan, 26 2016 @ 08:40 PM
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All I can do is repeat what I posted earlier.

Then there are those of us that would die to ensure that everyone had the right to free expression, because (me at least) see it as a vital, crucial liberty that transcends constitutions.

It is an elemental, fundamental foundation to freedom.


Beyond that?

I'm not sure what else there is to say.

Neat thing is, it's my opinion and no one else even has to read it.



posted on Jan, 26 2016 @ 08:42 PM
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originally posted by: DBCowboy
Then there are those of us that would die to ensure that everyone had the right to free expression, because (me at least) see it as a vital, crucial liberty that transcends constitutions.

It is an elemental, fundamental foundation to freedom.


You didn't like my scenario, so, kindly, to give your noble sentiment some grounding in reality, in what reasonable real-world scenario do you see the ACTUAL probability that you would be called upon to die so that others may keep their "freedom of speech"?
edit on 26-1-2016 by Gryphon66 because: Noted



posted on Jan, 26 2016 @ 08:47 PM
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originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: ketsuko

Would you die to insure that everyone, even pornographers and pedophiles and racists, had the right to freedom of speech?

I think that was the key question here.

The OP said, "No".

Then there are those of us that would die to ensure that everyone had the right to free expression, because (me at least) see it as a vital, crucial liberty that transcends constitutions.

It is an elemental, fundamental foundation to freedom.


For them specifically as in I am fighting for child porn? No.

But if I am fighting for the principles undergirding the freedoms of this country, then in an oblique way I am because those freedoms either apply to us all, them included, or they will eventually apply to none.

I don't like what they say, but somewhere (on this very forum are some examples for instance), there are people who do not like what I say. So if I support people in a crusade to abridge freedom of speech (or similar constitutional freedoms), even as reasonable as it sounds at the time, then someday those restrictions get will get around to me and what I say.

And when it comes to those freedoms we ought not compromise because in this case, one side of the compromise already holds everything it wants (complete/near complete freedom) and the other side of the debate is the one seeking to take. We need not compromise when there is nothing they can offer we want and we can only lose in the exchange.



posted on Jan, 26 2016 @ 08:48 PM
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a reply to: Gryphon66

Nope. Not going to play. I'm obviously not as smart as you so all I'd end up doing is repeating myself.

And that gets tiring.



posted on Jan, 26 2016 @ 08:50 PM
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originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: Gryphon66

Nope. Not going to play. I'm obviously not as smart as you so all I'd end up doing is repeating myself.

And that gets tiring.


I was hoping for something inspiring.

BTW, I think you're "as smart" as anyone here.

Best.



posted on Jan, 26 2016 @ 08:52 PM
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a reply to: ketsuko

Can you tell us what actual scenario you see yourself in where you would be called upon to give your life for freedom of speech?

I'm really starting to wonder what this is? Some of you are quite passionate that you would die for the freedom of others ...

How? Under what circumstances?



posted on Jan, 26 2016 @ 09:11 PM
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originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

What's interesting is that many would defend your right to say what you want. Regardless how they feel about your ideology.



Would they though?
Really and honestly?

So when I start calling for Sharia Law and the masses rise up to put an end to the radicalism you'll be there to defend my life?


I heartily laugh at such an assumption.


Only one way to find out - do it, and see.

You have the right to say anything you like, no matter how crack-pot or unpalatable it may be. It's when you start cutting throats to impose it on the innocent that the line is drawn.




edit on 2016/1/26 by nenothtu because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 26 2016 @ 09:12 PM
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a reply to: Gryphon66

It's easier said than done, I'd wager they are all talk but no walk.

I remember a few years ago where the Dixie Chicks were ridiculed and boycotted by Republicans for saying they were ashamed that Bush was a Texan and that they opposed the Iraqi War. They (Republicans) did it because they (Dixie Chicks) were being "non-PC". My how times have changed.
edit on 1/26/2016 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 26 2016 @ 09:20 PM
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originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: ketsuko

Can you tell us what actual scenario you see yourself in where you would be called upon to give your life for freedom of speech?

I'm really starting to wonder what this is? Some of you are quite passionate that you would die for the freedom of others ...

How? Under what circumstances?


The situation comes up much more often than you think, most times it de-escalates before one side does something they will regret for a very long time, and that's the other key to defending speech, knowing when it's better to say "Ok you win and you can have this round" than escalating and shooting someone in the face and going to jail forever.



posted on Jan, 26 2016 @ 09:26 PM
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How? Under what circumstances?


I think when people are talking about 'dying for our freedoms" they are referring to a war scenario. Not getting shot in the face at the mall or a movie or something in a stand your ground BS scenario. Plenty of people have died in wars fighting for our right to continue our rights.

Sigh. Obviously.
edit on 1/26/2016 by ladyinwaiting because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 26 2016 @ 09:27 PM
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originally posted by: annalisa2016

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: ketsuko

Can you tell us what actual scenario you see yourself in where you would be called upon to give your life for freedom of speech?

I'm really starting to wonder what this is? Some of you are quite passionate that you would die for the freedom of others ...

How? Under what circumstances?


The situation comes up much more often than you think, most times it de-escalates before one side does something they will regret for a very long time, and that's the other key to defending speech, knowing when it's better to say "Ok you win and you can have this round" than escalating and shooting someone in the face and going to jail forever.



Okay, if it comes up much more often than I think ... show me!

What's the actual scenario in which you would be called upon to give up your life, to die, or presumably, be killed to insure the freedom of speech of another person or other people?

Why is this so difficult? Person after person here has made the strong, passionate claim that they would die for freedom of speech ... and all I'm asking is for a reasonable example of that happening.

So ... is it a secret or something?
edit on 26-1-2016 by Gryphon66 because: Spelling



posted on Jan, 26 2016 @ 09:29 PM
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originally posted by: ladyinwaiting
I think when people are talking about 'dying for our freedoms" they are referring to a war scenario. Not getting shot in the face at the mall or a movie or something in a stand your ground BS scenario. Plenty of people have died in wars fighting for our right to continue our rights.

Sigh.


So ... these folks are offering to go die in a war? Which war? Afghanistan? Iraq? Iran? Syria?

How is that going to support a racist, homophobic, pedophiles right to publicly state their case for their racism, homophobia and pedophilia? (I cite these as these were Charlie's comments in the OP.)



posted on Jan, 26 2016 @ 09:31 PM
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a reply to: Gryphon66

I have no idea what they are willing to do. Ask them. Our military seems to have ample number of soldiers willing to fight for the country.



posted on Jan, 26 2016 @ 09:33 PM
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originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: annalisa2016

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: ketsuko

Can you tell us what actual scenario you see yourself in where you would be called upon to give your life for freedom of speech?

I'm really starting to wonder what this is? Some of you are quite passionate that you would die for the freedom of others ...

How? Under what circumstances?


The situation comes up much more often than you think, most times it de-escalates before one side does something they will regret for a very long time, and that's the other key to defending speech, knowing when it's better to say "Ok you win and you can have this round" than escalating and shooting someone in the face and going to jail forever.



Okay, if it comes up much more often than I think ... show me!

What's the actual scenario in which you would be called upon to give up your life, to die, or presumably, be killed to insure the freedom of speech of another person or other people?

Why is this so difficult? Person after person here has make the strong, passionate claim that they would die for freedom of speech ... and all I'm asking is for a reasonable example of that happening.

So ... is it a secret or something?


It just happens, can't really "show you" can describe a few instances, but you would have had to be there. One major one comes to mind during the LA Riots after the King verdict. A bunch of moronic idiots lined up hurling racial insults at each other, both sides were armed. I'm not proud of myself for standing with a few others in the middle and saying enough was enough, I could have been killed, but I did get out that while both sides had the right to their opinion, it wasn't worth starting a shootin war over, words are words, they hurt, yes, but should it ever be an excuse for physical harm? Not in my opinion but I was ready, willing and able to die that day if one side hadn't backed down, just to assist the side that was fired upon.

Why? because as mentioned earlier, I don't stand for resorting to brute force to win an argument, it never solves anything, and it makes one side feel superior to the other. Words cannot harm you unless you let them, whereas a bullet can. But, I will again, stand with anyone that is outnumbered, speaking their mind, even if I think what they are saying is complete and utter moronic nonsense.

I need a coffee now.



posted on Jan, 26 2016 @ 09:35 PM
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a reply to: nenothtu

I have a fair idea of the reaction of people, on this site specifically, if I was in the news, dead, tomorrow, because someone killed me for calling for Sharia Law in the West...

And I don't think many of them would be defending me.


As it stands I have no wish to live under Sharia Law.



posted on Jan, 26 2016 @ 09:35 PM
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originally posted by: ladyinwaiting
a reply to: Gryphon66

I have no idea what they are willing to do. Ask them. Our military seems to have ample number of soldiers willing to fight for the country.



I have asked them. Repeatedly.

Dying for "our country" in a war is not quite the same as a person claiming that they will die in defense of another's right to free speech, is it? I mean, the actual threat to any American's free speech by Germans or Russians or Iraqis has been, for the most part, theoretical, right?

Surely there's something that these folks are referring to, directly? These aren't just empty sentiments, are they?

(I'm asking you, since you chose to answer.)



posted on Jan, 26 2016 @ 09:36 PM
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originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs
a reply to: LesMisanthrope


That, in my opinion, is where we need to attack racists, homophobes, and bigots, but not limit our own freedoms in order to limit theirs.


Hmmmm I went away to eat and I read that you still don't quite understand what I'm saying.

This quoted post, is a primary example of what I'm not advocating...
ie To limit people's freedom.


By all means the KKK, the Clerics, the Evangelists can say whatever they like to who they like when they like...

Just don't expect me to die for you when the time comes that someone says "I've had enough of your s#"...

That is all.


I think I understand your point better. But I think I know the source of my confusion.

I don't think people expect you to die for anyone. You don't expect anyone to die for you. But I have a feeling you'd die for something greater.

This is where I think you are mistaken. The quote clearly states "die for the right for you to say it", not "die for you". In your hypothetical, you wouldn't fighting or dying for a person, but for a noble principle, the right to says it, like the quote says.

Nonetheless, I nor anyone else expects you die for anyone else, but don't be suprised if someone risks life for you, or at the very least, that cherished principle.



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