Are 'Christians' allowed to Disagree with 'Jesus' and still be called 'Christians'?

a reply to: Punisher75

Let me see how I can somehow change the meaning of those two verses by quoting everything around it as you seem to think I have done with the verses I quoted.

You seem to be doing exactly what you accused me of doing:taking verses out of context by not quoting everything else around them.

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: Punisher75

Let me see how I can somehow change the meaning of those two verses by quoting everything around it as you seem to think I have done with the verses I quoted.

You seem to be doing exactly what you accused me of doing:taking verses out of context by not quoting everything else around them.

Can you demonstrate how they are out of context? If you would like I will post more passages that might make it more clear.

26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.
27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Note in verse 27 he is telling them, not to labor for perishable food, but rather eternal life?
What happens next?
They say what kind of work do we have to do?
His answer... Believe on him whom he hath sent.

So how exactly am I out of context to the passages meaning?

a reply to: Punisher75

So where is there mention of a sacrifice in that passage? You're implying that believing in Jesus means believing in his supposed sacrifice.

If you do good works (love others and God) then that is a sign of believing in him, believing in a sacrifice is a sign of nothing. Jesus desired mercy (love) NOT sacrifice.

You accused me of taking verses out of context then went on to post the entire passage without explaining how the entire passage negated the verses I originally quoted. How is you doing it ok but it's not ok when I do it?

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: Punisher75

So where is there mention of a sacrifice in that passage? You're implying that believing in Jesus means believing in his supposed sacrifice.

If you do good works (love others and God) then that is a sign of believing in him, believing in a sacrifice is a sign of nothing. Jesus desired mercy (love) NOT sacrifice.

I did not say anything about sacrifice, nor have I implied anything of the sort as it pertains to this passage. That my friend is a strawman argument, and you are moving the goal post.

If you want text in the scripture about that sacrifice and that being the means of Justification we can do that. however that has nothing to do with the topic of works/faith as a means of ones salvation.

It is worth noting that it would make little sense for Christ to talk about them having faith in his sacrifice, when there was at this point no crucifixion to have faith in.

You accused me of taking verses out of context then went on to post the entire passage without explaining how the entire passage negated the verses I originally quoted. How is you doing it ok but it's not ok when I do it?

The rest of the passages tells you why it was negated.

For example in James, it clearly shows what James was talking about, hence all the talk about "what good is it to have faith if you don't help people" that surrounds the "Faith without works is dead statement".

The passages around "faith without works is dead" defines and contrasts what is meant by "dead faith" and what is meant by "living faith".

You will one day have to explain to me what method of Hermenutic you use to understand the Bible.

a reply to: Punisher75

I can quote scripture that says we are judged on what we do, not what we believe, though that is the point of the Bible, to cause division with its vague and often contradictory nature.

James 2
24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

By what you DO, not what you believe.

Do you agree that if you do not forgive others then you also will not be forgiven by God no matter how much faith in a sacrifice you have? If so, you agree with Jesus, if not then you disagree with him in favor of Paul.

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
Do you agree that if you do not forgive others then you also will not be forgiven by God no matter how much faith in a sacrifice you have? If so, you agree with Jesus, if not then you disagree with him in favor of Paul.

I believe neither of those statements.

I believe that if you have saving faith then you will be unable to not forgive.
Not by choice but by your very nature having been changed.

a reply to: Punisher75

So you disagree with Jesus AND Paul? Blasphemy!

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: Punisher75

So you disagree with Jesus AND Paul? Blasphemy!

LOL No I believe that is what both of them taught.

a reply to: Punisher75

But you just said you don't believe either of the statements I brought up.

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: Punisher75

But you just said you don't believe either of the statements I brought up.

Indeed I did because I don't believe that you have accurately stated what they taught. LOL

a reply to: Punisher75

You can't have it both ways. Jesus and James say that faith without works is dead, Paul says you are justified by faith without works.

Which is it? You can't agree with both.

I stated it by providing scripture, if you disagree with how I stated it then you disagree with how scripture stated it.

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: Punisher75

You can't have it both ways. Jesus and James say that faith without works is dead, Paul says you are justified by faith without works.

Which is it? You can't agree with both.

What "Work" did Jesus say you needed for everlasting life?
Faith on the one who was sent.

What Work did Paul say you needed for everlasting life?
Salvation by faith, through grace.

What Work did James say you needed for everlasting life?
Nothing.
Why?
Because he is not talking about saving faith, in his letter he is talking about Christian living, He telling people that if they are going to claim to be Christian then they should help people. Why? Because not helping people but claiming to have faith is not helpful, to people who need food clothing etc.

a reply to: Punisher75

So how can Christians claim to do what Jesus said to do when they also claim to be habitual sinners? If you follow Jesus' commands, you do not sin because love does no harm to a neighbor.

"I will show you my faith BY my deeds" not "I will show you my deeds BY my faith". You seem to be advocating the latter statement, and there is a huge difference between the two.

This reminds me of what went on in the temple and basically every Pharisee would argue and everyone gets steamed just like moder Hasidic Jews. If you are truly a disciple then you take the belief that he was perfect very seriously. If he isn't perfect and you don't agree with everything he said you can call your self a Christian all day but you are not a disciple. A perfect man who knows all CAN'T be wrong because he is perfect. It's very easy to say " I'm a Christian" but a true disciple wants to be just like the Messiah in every way, and would never question God's only begotten Son. Jesus is the only person I would act for without question. His only goal was to get you on the path. He was the greatest ever to wear the flesh, his story is one you can study your whole life and learn something new every time. It's very complex, esoteric even. AND it's simple even to sum up in one Word: Love. Blessings all around people.

I'm a Christian and do what the F*ck I want

Jesus paid the ultimate price for us, of course as God created life and therefore life is by definition a Creation of the Creator he actually supercedes the concept of life, though he is the source of life, meaning in a kind of gnostic rational at least to me that he is able to still exist alive or dead and indeed did exactly that.

Jesus pointed out that we are all flawed when he defended Mary Magdalene, "Let he that is without Sin cast the first stone".

Now many non christian's and those with a more non religious view as well as many even among preachers do not realise sin is not the act of evil it is the act of imperfection, non of us are perfect as only god is perfect "Why do you call me good, none is good but God alone".

We are no damned by our imperfection's and failings though we rightly feel badly about them and we are not damned because through christ we are paid for and represented in that payment by one whom is perfect.

He even asked for his father to forgive they whom had pierced him and scourged him, spat upon him and mocked him with all manner of insults "Father forgive them for they know not what they do".

The bible say's it best in the book of Proverbs, "The beginning of wisdom is understanding you have none" but that said I don't really understand but I do know that I have none.

I believe Jesus was perfect but that is not the point, we may disagree with him as part of our learning but in the end when we become true christians (if we pass the narrow way) then we are WITH HIM, to be with him is to not disagree (BE APART FROM) with him.

a reply to: Sigismundus

Can 'Christians' disagree with 'Jesus' & still be called 'Christians'?

In the four Gospels, situational awareness is critical to understand how things were handled back then. Christ came by and offered alternatives based on each individual event.

We see the same thing each and every single day where laws that were meant for one thing, end up doing another.
Unfortunately, we live in a time of absolute obedience and enforcement, regardless.

For instance, a school district outlaws tee shirts with images/logos, etc. But, on the Fourth of July, a kid arrives with a US flag on a shirt. They are immediately castrated by record, assaulted by authority and then sent home with extended punishment.

Another? A kid with a common cold comes to school with a small tube of Mentholatum, simply to keep their breathing as clear as possible. But, once caught? Sent home, punished in grades and parents called to be simonized by school officials.

These events define what we have become... a nation that has lost its common sense abilities.
Unfortunately, there seems to be more comfort today in such an environment than ever before.

Thus, indoctrination and obedience rules. If Christ were to arrive today, His path, likely, would be the same as it was over 2000 years ago; to unscrew humanity from itself.

a reply to: windword

What's wrong with me? I have an acute case of "critical thinking". Watch out! It may be contagious!

Nope..... I don't think this at all. Your antichrist statements throughout all of your religious threads spew hate towards Christ and his father and I believe it is obvious as to why. You clearly blame God and all that loves him for something that happened to you. Something happened to you and it is God's fault.....right? I have spoken to too many people here on ATS just like you and after hours of talking it comes out.....

Go ahead and laugh or better yet make some silly remark it only proves my point.

I get it .......you hate Christians and you love antagonizing us. Thinking if you can tear down our faith we will walk away? Now that is funny.....

All you do is strengthen my faith so continue on..... and to my brothers and sisters out there, do you really think you can convince Winword or others here like her? They come to these forums for one reason.....hatred.

I forgive you for your hatred towards me and my Christian family.

a reply to: Sigismundus

Good question. And the obvious, though terribly dogmatic— answer to that question would be « No, you can't call yourself a Christian and not sell everything you own and give away the earnings! ». Then again the more pragmatic approach would be to analyse his sayings and agree that while it's not OK to steal donkeys, parade as the new king, then break in to fashionable homes and party until the point where you poison your accountant and hide with armed men in the park— it is OK to take strolls on weekends and it's polite and nice to kindly ask the owner of a well if you may drink from it, before actually drinking from it. I also suppose it's OK to heal people, also in weekends. However to live on a diet of literature and perform necromancy through drowning and poisons? Hmmm..... not so sure.....

Good question. S/F