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Dangers of atheism -Sam Harris

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posted on Jan, 25 2016 @ 05:27 PM
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a reply to: TzarChasm



its actually three words.


My mistake.



i would argue that there is. i call it "indifference". the halfway point between skepticism and conviction.


I think indifference can be applied to many things, not just arguments or theology, but I understand what you mean and agree.




posted on Jan, 25 2016 @ 05:27 PM
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originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: vjr1113



well there you go. terms and labels.

when i talk about something being real i mean the universe. it exists as a concept but not the same way my PC exists.

if you say god only exists in a mind, thats fine. but say so next time.


In your mind or not, either way, it exists.


fine i will say i dont believe in a god that exists in the universe. anything can exist in your minds if you have the capability to imagine it but, who cares really?



posted on Jan, 25 2016 @ 05:29 PM
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a reply to: vjr1113




by the way there seems two be two different "reals" being used. i dont care about whats going on in your head, only about what can happen in the physical. metaphysics are nice but they can only be so real.


We can only talk about the physical world. There is no non-physical world we are referring to. We can only refer to something, not nothing.



posted on Jan, 25 2016 @ 05:30 PM
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originally posted by: vjr1113

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: vjr1113




i disagree completely. thoughts cannot manifest into matter. no matter how hard you try. you cant pick things up with your minds.


That's not what I said, is it? I'm saying the brain and its processes are real. The woman in your thoughts isn't a non-physical reality or object, "something that doesn't exist", it is real in the sense that something real is occurring when you think of it.


well there you go. terms and labels.

when i talk about something being real i mean the universe. it exists as a concept but not the same way my PC exists.

if you say god only exists in a mind, thats fine. but say so next time.

by the way there seems two be two different "reals" being used. i dont care about whats going on in your head, only about what can happen in the physical. metaphysics are nice but they can only be so real.


Two things. Observation is the only reality you can prove through reason.. David Hume the skeptic said you can not prove anything exists and that you are not dreaming. To paraphrase.

Kant says the observation is the reality we constitute our reality.

Anslem ontological arguement talks about God in your mind. It's a neat Jedi mind trick if you've never read it.

Does anyone have experience with the arguements for the existence of god? Harris certainly does which is why he doesn't fall into these types of traps.



posted on Jan, 25 2016 @ 05:31 PM
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a reply to: MarioOnTheFly

I apologize if I've drifted too far off topic. Sam Harris seems like a smart guy.



posted on Jan, 25 2016 @ 05:37 PM
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originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: vjr1113




by the way there seems two be two different "reals" being used. i dont care about whats going on in your head, only about what can happen in the physical. metaphysics are nice but they can only be so real.


We can only talk about the physical world. There is no non-physical world we are referring to. We can only refer to something, not nothing.


i disagree that thoughts are real the same way an apple is real. they both exist but not the same way. one has matter the other exists in your mind to say both are completely equal is wrong.

when you die are your thoughts still real? then stop calling them real like you would New York.
edit on 25-1-2016 by vjr1113 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 25 2016 @ 05:47 PM
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a reply to: vjr1113




i disagree that thoughts are real the same way an apple is real. they both exist but not the same way. one has matter the other exists in your mind to say both are completely equal is wrong.


I'm not saying the thought of an apple is the same as an apple. I'm only saying both are real, that they take part in existence, that they have being, that they are something. How you describe these realities are up to you, but to describe something as nothing, to describe what exists as something that doesn't, is false.

This is what metaphysics is all about: why is there something rather than nothing? If you've tried speaking about nothing for any given length of time, you might realize how ridiculous it is to say God is the same as nothing. It's false.

In terms of God, describe it as what it is in order to describe what it isn't. Look at the evidence—say god is a word, a myth, a character of literature, and you'd be correct and speaking truth, but never say it doesn't exist, because you'd be wrong. Only nothing does not exist.



posted on Jan, 25 2016 @ 05:55 PM
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originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: vjr1113




i disagree that thoughts are real the same way an apple is real. they both exist but not the same way. one has matter the other exists in your mind to say both are completely equal is wrong.


I'm not saying the thought of an apple is the same as an apple. I'm only saying both are real, that they take part in existence, that they have being, that they are something. How you describe these realities are up to you, but to describe something as nothing, to describe what exists as something that doesn't, is false.

This is what metaphysics is all about: why is there something rather than nothing? If you've tried speaking about nothing for any given length of time, you might realize how ridiculous it is to say God is the same as nothing. It's false.

In terms of God, describe it as what it is in order to describe what it isn't. Look at the evidence—say god is a word, a myth, a character of literature, and you'd be correct and speaking truth, but never say it doesn't exist, because you'd be wrong. Only nothing does not exist.


i will grant you thoughts and matter both exist, but they dont exist the same way.



posted on Jan, 25 2016 @ 05:56 PM
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originally posted by: vjr1113
a reply to: rexsblues

yea he's one of the few skeptics working with muslim to reform islam. he, and most of us know, islam is probably never going away completely, our best shot is to secularize it, modernize, then maybe, hopefully, ridicule it into banality. just like christianity.

You think you have ridiculed Christianity into banality? Is that what you tell yourself? What a joke. We, vastly, out number your kind. We hold more political power, capital, and we are organized. We rule most nations and hold the leash of the Godless Northmen. You are free to hate your parents, you are free to hate your God, just don't fool yourself into believing that your folly does anything except serve the Father of Lies.



posted on Jan, 25 2016 @ 05:58 PM
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originally posted by: vjr1113

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: vjr1113




i disagree that thoughts are real the same way an apple is real. they both exist but not the same way. one has matter the other exists in your mind to say both are completely equal is wrong.


I'm not saying the thought of an apple is the same as an apple. I'm only saying both are real, that they take part in existence, that they have being, that they are something. How you describe these realities are up to you, but to describe something as nothing, to describe what exists as something that doesn't, is false.

This is what metaphysics is all about: why is there something rather than nothing? If you've tried speaking about nothing for any given length of time, you might realize how ridiculous it is to say God is the same as nothing. It's false.

In terms of God, describe it as what it is in order to describe what it isn't. Look at the evidence—say god is a word, a myth, a character of literature, and you'd be correct and speaking truth, but never say it doesn't exist, because you'd be wrong. Only nothing does not exist.


i will grant you thoughts and matter both exist, but they dont exist the same way.


Without an observer nothing exists or can be proven to exist. Both matter and thoughts need an observer to exist.



posted on Jan, 25 2016 @ 06:03 PM
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originally posted by: JohnthePhilistine

originally posted by: vjr1113
a reply to: rexsblues

yea he's one of the few skeptics working with muslim to reform islam. he, and most of us know, islam is probably never going away completely, our best shot is to secularize it, modernize, then maybe, hopefully, ridicule it into banality. just like christianity.

You think you have ridiculed Christianity into banality? Is that what you tell yourself? What a joke. We, vastly, out number your kind. We hold more political power, capital, and we are organized. We rule most nations and hold the leash of the Godless Northmen. You are free to hate your parents, you are free to hate your God, just don't fool yourself into believing that your folly does anything except serve the Father of Lies.


as long as we can make religion non-violent, thats fine with me. believe what you want. also keep it out of the public, schools, and government. your rights are your rights. i will give them to you but i dont have to respect them.
edit on 25-1-2016 by vjr1113 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 25 2016 @ 06:04 PM
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originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: vjr1113

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: vjr1113




i disagree that thoughts are real the same way an apple is real. they both exist but not the same way. one has matter the other exists in your mind to say both are completely equal is wrong.


I'm not saying the thought of an apple is the same as an apple. I'm only saying both are real, that they take part in existence, that they have being, that they are something. How you describe these realities are up to you, but to describe something as nothing, to describe what exists as something that doesn't, is false.

This is what metaphysics is all about: why is there something rather than nothing? If you've tried speaking about nothing for any given length of time, you might realize how ridiculous it is to say God is the same as nothing. It's false.

In terms of God, describe it as what it is in order to describe what it isn't. Look at the evidence—say god is a word, a myth, a character of literature, and you'd be correct and speaking truth, but never say it doesn't exist, because you'd be wrong. Only nothing does not exist.


i will grant you thoughts and matter both exist, but they dont exist the same way.


Without an observer nothing exists or can be proven to exist. Both matter and thoughts need an observer to exist.




the earth will still be here whether we are here or not. because it cannot be proven doesnt mean it can be disproven.
edit on 25-1-2016 by vjr1113 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 25 2016 @ 06:07 PM
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originally posted by: vjr1113

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: vjr1113

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: vjr1113




i disagree that thoughts are real the same way an apple is real. they both exist but not the same way. one has matter the other exists in your mind to say both are completely equal is wrong.


I'm not saying the thought of an apple is the same as an apple. I'm only saying both are real, that they take part in existence, that they have being, that they are something. How you describe these realities are up to you, but to describe something as nothing, to describe what exists as something that doesn't, is false.

This is what metaphysics is all about: why is there something rather than nothing? If you've tried speaking about nothing for any given length of time, you might realize how ridiculous it is to say God is the same as nothing. It's false.

In terms of God, describe it as what it is in order to describe what it isn't. Look at the evidence—say god is a word, a myth, a character of literature, and you'd be correct and speaking truth, but never say it doesn't exist, because you'd be wrong. Only nothing does not exist.


i will grant you thoughts and matter both exist, but they dont exist the same way.


Without an observer nothing exists or can be proven to exist. Both matter and thoughts need an observer to exist.




the earth will still be here whether we are here or not.


That would be impossible to prove wouldn't it.



posted on Jan, 25 2016 @ 06:10 PM
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originally posted by: vjr1113

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: vjr1113

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: vjr1113




i disagree that thoughts are real the same way an apple is real. they both exist but not the same way. one has matter the other exists in your mind to say both are completely equal is wrong.


I'm not saying the thought of an apple is the same as an apple. I'm only saying both are real, that they take part in existence, that they have being, that they are something. How you describe these realities are up to you, but to describe something as nothing, to describe what exists as something that doesn't, is false.

This is what metaphysics is all about: why is there something rather than nothing? If you've tried speaking about nothing for any given length of time, you might realize how ridiculous it is to say God is the same as nothing. It's false.

In terms of God, describe it as what it is in order to describe what it isn't. Look at the evidence—say god is a word, a myth, a character of literature, and you'd be correct and speaking truth, but never say it doesn't exist, because you'd be wrong. Only nothing does not exist.


i will grant you thoughts and matter both exist, but they dont exist the same way.


Without an observer nothing exists or can be proven to exist. Both matter and thoughts need an observer to exist.




the earth will still be here whether we are here or not. because it cannot be proven doesnt mean it can be disproven.


Uh no. There would be no evidence of the earth.



posted on Jan, 25 2016 @ 06:16 PM
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a reply to: luthier




Without an observer nothing exists or can be proven to exist. Both matter and thoughts need an observer to exist.


Without "matter" (not a fan of the term), an observer wouldn't exist. Matter is primary to observer, not the other way around.



posted on Jan, 25 2016 @ 06:16 PM
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originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: vjr1113

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: vjr1113

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: vjr1113




i disagree that thoughts are real the same way an apple is real. they both exist but not the same way. one has matter the other exists in your mind to say both are completely equal is wrong.


I'm not saying the thought of an apple is the same as an apple. I'm only saying both are real, that they take part in existence, that they have being, that they are something. How you describe these realities are up to you, but to describe something as nothing, to describe what exists as something that doesn't, is false.

This is what metaphysics is all about: why is there something rather than nothing? If you've tried speaking about nothing for any given length of time, you might realize how ridiculous it is to say God is the same as nothing. It's false.

In terms of God, describe it as what it is in order to describe what it isn't. Look at the evidence—say god is a word, a myth, a character of literature, and you'd be correct and speaking truth, but never say it doesn't exist, because you'd be wrong. Only nothing does not exist.


i will grant you thoughts and matter both exist, but they dont exist the same way.


Without an observer nothing exists or can be proven to exist. Both matter and thoughts need an observer to exist.




the earth will still be here whether we are here or not.


That would be impossible to prove wouldn't it.


just because we cant prove it doesn't mean it doesn't exist, we can only choose to believe it or not. sure we cant prove anything without a mind, but i have a mind and can prove things, so what good is the question? i agree matter and mind thoughts exist, just not in the same way.



posted on Jan, 25 2016 @ 06:23 PM
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originally posted by: vjr1113

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: vjr1113

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: vjr1113

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: vjr1113




i disagree that thoughts are real the same way an apple is real. they both exist but not the same way. one has matter the other exists in your mind to say both are completely equal is wrong.


I'm not saying the thought of an apple is the same as an apple. I'm only saying both are real, that they take part in existence, that they have being, that they are something. How you describe these realities are up to you, but to describe something as nothing, to describe what exists as something that doesn't, is false.

This is what metaphysics is all about: why is there something rather than nothing? If you've tried speaking about nothing for any given length of time, you might realize how ridiculous it is to say God is the same as nothing. It's false.

In terms of God, describe it as what it is in order to describe what it isn't. Look at the evidence—say god is a word, a myth, a character of literature, and you'd be correct and speaking truth, but never say it doesn't exist, because you'd be wrong. Only nothing does not exist.


i will grant you thoughts and matter both exist, but they dont exist the same way.


Without an observer nothing exists or can be proven to exist. Both matter and thoughts need an observer to exist.




the earth will still be here whether we are here or not.


That would be impossible to prove wouldn't it.


just because we cant prove it doesn't mean it doesn't exist, we can only choose to believe it or not. sure we cant prove anything without a mind, but i have a mind and can prove things, so what good is the question? i agree matter and mind thoughts exist, just not in the same way.

One of the most bizarre premises of quantum theory, which has long fascinated philosophers and physicists alike, states that by the very act of watching, the observer affects the observed reality.
www.sciencedaily.com...

You can not have emperical evidence without an observer. Period. That is science. If a conscious mind did not observe something it does not exist. There is no way around it. We have observed there is matter so it does exist. If an observer never existed there is no proving anything existed. It would never be observed. If all observers cease to exist there is no way of knowing if anything exists. There is no way around that.


If you think deeply about that it will lead you into ontology. It's an arguement for the existence of God. The constant observer. Through reason. I know the rebuttles but, I haven't heard one yet here.

There are extremely deep arguements for the existence of God that don't rely on superstitious books. Most people have never heard them it seems. Ontological, Cosmological, and teleological arguements are not as easy to dismiss as the common arguements of gods existence. Not that they don't have good rebuttles but they are worth thinking about.



edit on 25-1-2016 by luthier because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 25 2016 @ 06:27 PM
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a reply to: luthier

fine, makes sense. we are here now. can we agree this is reality is real? if so i believe it will keep being real after im gone.



posted on Jan, 25 2016 @ 06:36 PM
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originally posted by: vjr1113
a reply to: luthier

fine, makes sense. we are here now. can we agree this is reality is real? if so i believe it will keep being real after im gone.


I don't know if even some physicists agree on what reality is.

Like I said David Hume who was part of the scientific process stated its almost impossible to prove anything exists and you aren't in a dream or more modern example "the matrix"
All you can prove is your observation (is what imaneul Kant) rebuttles with.

Turns out observation may actually effect matter on the quantum level.

It's just not set in stone what reality is. Obviously some things are real. These are thought exercises but we haven't scratched the surface on what reality is.

Another important observation:
Metaphysics is a dark ocean without shores or lighthouse, strewn with many a shipwrecks. Immanuel Kant.
edit on 25-1-2016 by luthier because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 25 2016 @ 06:42 PM
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a reply to: luthier

a far as i know, there is no solution to solipsism, only reason to believe it's not likely to be true. to say all this is a creation of your mind means that you wrote all the music you've ever heard or will hear.

Beethoven, Bach, Vivaldi, Mozart... you made it all. i cant believe it. very very unlikely but i dont think so.



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