How do we actually know that the NAZI's didn't win world war 2 ???

originally posted by: andy06shake
The real winners in WW2 where the banker oogarts (sic)that sponsored both the Axis and Allied forces during the conflict.

...such as the Harriman Brothers ( Brown Brothers Harriman) who built the railway into Auschwitz...

Most of the Nazi tanks were gone by the time the Nazis got there. I mean the americans. lol

the Nazis are still going strong....
They only lost militarily .....
Other results were of net benefit to the Reich....

They did win - Operation Paperclip.

The Germans sure didn't.

But maybe the Western governments and the USSR kept the important parts intact (aka Authoritarianism).

No wonder they made such big denazification efforts.

originally posted by: Restricted
They did win - Operation Paperclip.

You forgot:
The Soviet Alsos
Operation Backfire
Operation Surgeon

Really interesting conspiracy theory but Nazi Germany had insane racial laws that we don't have in the US...maybe at one time...but before the Nazi's killed millions of Jewish people early settlers killed millions of native americans, took their land, and had black slaves.

originally posted by: Restricted
They did win - Operation Paperclip.

Ah you mean little Angie and Afolf in Brazil ?
Shame how Angie, Obama, Hitler coincidently lost all their childhood paperwork

a reply to: Blackhawk0044

Great for your great grandfather, but still, the NAZI did not win. That´s the point.

I've read the articles on the "Fourth Reich" and the plans by the SS to keep the "dream alive through taking over the economic heart of Europa" (which makes a lot of sense if you know your country is doomed to die) And have come to this conclusion, maybe some of the people involved (Such as former IG Farben execs and Messerschmitt, and Volkswagon, and (I really do forget the other one that really took off after the war and it wasn't BASF or Bayer.. ) did think they may be following those orders, and it certainly seems like they could have been, but the fact remains thusly:

The German Reich (Third Reich, Nazi Germany, etc) was soundly defeated in WW2, it's legal representative unconditionally surrendered to the Allies and that was that, we occupied the nation until East and West Germany came into being and then in 1990 we finally ended the war (long war eh?) and Germany reunited, end of story.

a reply to: annalisa2016

...end of story...

not quiet, we (Germany) are still not granted independend status. Never got that back!

originally posted by: verschickter
a reply to: annalisa2016

...end of story...

not quiet, we (Germany) are still not granted independend status. Never got that back!

Bundesrepublik Deutschland

A Federal parliamentary constitutional republic. It does not answer to anyone but the member countries of the EU through treaty, it is part of NATO, independently has it's own military the Bundeswehr (and Luftwaffe) can make internal decision on it's own, sounds independant to me. I don't know where you get the idea that Germany didn't get it's internal independance back, it most certainly did, in 1991 when the reunification was complete. Just because they are an EU and NATO member doesn't take away the fact that the Federal Republic of Germany is for all intents and purposes an Independent and legitimate governmental entity.

a reply to: annalisa2016

Just because they are an EU and NATO member doesn't take away the fact that the Federal Republic of Germany is for all intents and purposes an Independent and legitimate governmental entity.

That´s not what I said, ever, nor thought.

I´m angry I wrote out a post to the maximum char count and hit "back" on my mouse button by reflex.

To make it short:
0) The 2+4 contract only handles the reuniting of "BRD" and "DDR"!

1)
-Germany is still listed as "enemy state" in the UN enemy state clause

2)
-Every decision made by the three powers or one of the three powers are legaly binding to the german government, then, now and in future.

"Alle Urteile und Entscheidungen in Strafsachen, die von einem Gericht oder einer gerichtlichen Behörde der Drei Mächte oder einer derselben bisher in Deutschland gefällt worden sind oder später gefällt werden, bleiben in jeder Hinsicht nach deutschem Recht rechtskräftig und rechtswirksam und sind von deutschen Gerichten und Behörden demgemäß zu behandeln.”
Short translation: "every judgement in criminal cases, that were done in the past or are done in the future by the three powers or one of the three powers are and stay legal valid and are handled that way by the german courts and authorities.

3)
-So heißt es in Artikel 2 des Übereinkommens zur Regelung bestimmte Fragen in Bezug auf Berlin vom 25. September 1990: “Alle Rechte und Verpflichtungen, die durch gesetzgeberische, gerichtlich oder Verwaltungsmaßnahmen der alliierten Behörden in oder in Bezug auf Berlin oder aufgrund, ob sie in Maßnahmen begründet oder festgestellt worden sind, sind und bleiben in jeder Hinsicht nach deutschem Recht in Kraft, ohne Rücksicht darauf, ob sie in Übereinstimmung mit anderen Rechtsvorschriften begründet oder festgestellt worden sind. Diese Rechte und Verpflichtungen überliegen ohne Diskriminierung denselben künftigen gesetzgeberischen, gerichtlichen oder Verwaltungsmaßnahmen wie gleichartige nach deutschen Rechte begründete oder festgestellte Rechte und Verpflichtungen.

Short translation: All rights and liabilities that were given by law, court or administrative measures made by the allied governments, are and stay, in every view, valid, without consideration on other rights and liabilities. Those rights and liablilities override the future law, court or administrative measures.

4) Our constitution (Artikel 146 GG) says it only can be replaced if a new constitution is voted by the free german people.
Never happened.

5) Our constitution (Artikel 120 GG) says we have to pay every bill for the ocupying force.


I could go on and on and on.
Sounds very souvereign, don´t you think?

a reply to: verschickter

ARTICLE 107

Nothing in the present Charter shall invalidate or preclude action, in relation to any state which during the Second World War has been an enemy of any signatory to the present Charter, taken or authorized as a result of that war by the Governments having responsibility for such action.

Article 77

1 The trusteeship system shall apply to such territories in the following categories as may be placed thereunder by means of trusteeship agreements:

a. territories now held under mandate;

b. territories which may be detached from enemy states as a result of the Second World War; and

c. territories voluntarily placed under the system by states responsible for their administration.

2 It will be a matter for subsequent agreement as to which territories in the foregoing categories will be brought under the trusteeship system and upon what terms.

Article 53

1. The Security Council shall, where appropriate, utilize such regional arrangements or agencies for enforcement action under its authority. But no enforcement action shall betaken under regional arrangements or by regional agencies without the authorization of the Security Council, with the exception of measures against any enemy state, as defined in paragraph 2 of this Article, provided for pursuant to Article 107 or in regional arrangements directed against renewal of aggressive policy on the part of any such state, until such time as the Organization may, on request of the Governments concerned, be charged with the responsibility for preventing further aggression by such a state.

2. The term enemy state as used in paragraph 1 of this Article applies to any state which during the Second World War has been an enemy of any signatory of the present Charter.

You overlooked the French and Russian amendments to the UN Charter concerning enemy state status. The articles apply only if the states responsible for starting WWII initiate renewed aggression.

An article that was not needed due to Chapter 7 Article 51.

So unless Germany plans on resurrecting the Reich the articles do not apply to them (or Japan). The section where you gave the short story was a result of the Potsdam agreement on war reparations. Last I checked Germany completed most, if not all, of its requirements. Paying the bill for the occupying force was also a requirement under Potsdam.

The Marshall Plan was a success and as a result Germany (west Europe) were able to rebuild based on a solid foundation. One must ask themselves -
The issues you raised in your post - Are they still relevant to modern Germany?

The UN articles mentioned have never been invoked.. What exactly is the issue? I ask this question based on the fact the Germany we know today is not the Germany we knew during WW2. Removing the enemy state section has come up time and again and from what I have seen the planned changes were never adopted - not because nations blocked the changes - but rather, from the impression I get, its not relevant. The world does not view Germany as an enemy and they are secure in the fact the German people wont allow a Reich 2.0. To me it does not seem to be on any nations radar because its no longer relevant.

Also I have not seen a major effort by Germany nor Japan to make the changes. Not saying they haven't tried I just have not seen a major concerted effort by them to make the changes. As for your Constitution the German people can make changes, just as Japan can. Lack of changes are not the result of another nation blocking the efforts.

I'm an american, and not speaking German, and not reading German, so...
Your observation/idea isn't very realistic.
Come out of your room...

Hell, no need to worry about Germany. Soon it will no longer be a going concern.

Merkel is single-handedly bringing it down. And fast.

We really showed them with the Morganthaller Plan. Oh wait, the Germans were too handy, so no real super punishment.
en.wikipedia.org... One doesn't need a country or a homeland to continue on. Just look how long the Jews did their disporia.

The Madrid Circular Letter? The "master plan" of master plans. Guess no one ever read Karl Ernst Haushofer? Germans were always sneaky and used various positions to make the Island Earth as the counter to any Naval power.

spitfirelist.com...

The Italians thought up the fascism's progression to corporatism , but considering they couldn't win any of their own fights and had the Nazis bail them out across the globe. The Germans perfected it. War by other means, after all......

The Victorious allies always getting along? en.wikipedia.org...

originally posted by: chr0naut
a reply to: lavatrance

Many of the 'ideas' that the Nazi's supposedly had for super weapons were actually stolen, or the Nazi's missed out on them entirely:

And the Nazi's, who did have the scientists behind the atomic bomb, which would have won them the war, lost out because Einstein and Lise Meitner were Jewish (and you couldn't have that, could you).

Konrad Zuse may have to beat you with his big glasses.

The Nazis actually had more of their stuff stolen and looted. Ironic? Karmic? Who knows? Many patents in the end weren't even recorded and were property of the SS. Speculation goes on what actually was taken. Henry Stevens has a good book on this. Albert Speers bitched in his book about the SS compartmentalizing everything on him towards the end.

Read the farm hall scripts again, certain interesting things were neglected to be redacted.

The Germans were a little more flexible than you think. Never heard of Mischlings? Half Breeds for the Reich. A stamp of paperwork and a person carrying a torah and eating a bagel was now 100% Aryan. Almost as good as the certificate of authority for autographs on ebay.... Bosnian Muslims in the SS? Say it isn't so Governor.

a reply to: hibbity

There are other factor's to consider, the NAZI's actually seized the information of all the patent offices in every country they entered as well.

They did create thing's which we today do not hear about, read a book called the HUNT FOR ZERO POINT by Nick Cook, this guy researched the NAZI's wonder weapon's including story's and eye witness accounts of projects such as the BELL, the testing rig which was obviously designed to hold something down though there is no evidence of Rocket engines being used at the scene and indeed that is not what they witness reported either, there are other story's about something that may have created exotic radiation or even time displacement.
vielewelten.at...
Unfortunatly this PDF version seem's to be abridged as the first edition I used to own seemed to have a lot more information as well as many photograph's etc.
But I digress, one of the device's mentioned but neither detailed nor shown and which sadly had no actual witness except for it's apparent effect's was something which shut down all the petrol engines (Spark plug's), radio's and other electronics (valve based back then of course) in a certain german city and this forced Allied bombers to fly over 5000 feet in the effected area with those flying lower often losing power, apparently diesel engines worked fine in the city though, I am not sure this it is in this PDF but it was in the original text I read, either way the NAZI's did have very advanced techonology.

Of course though independantly invented there JET engine was also more primitive or rather less refined but it's worst failing was the lack of proper materials necessary to make it stable at high temperatures so it was forced to use substandard metals and alloys in it's construction as the allied blockade prevented the NAZI's getting the required preferred materials and so there engine would burn out after a few uses and had a very short service life, after the war some German pilot's whom had flown both the ME 262 and the Glauster meteor stated that "If only they had possessed the meteors engine on the 262" because the german invention of the swept back wing's for high speed was superior as was the ME 262's airframe and together these two components would have made the ME262 unbeatable.

Perversely had the air ministry not been filled by old men with backward view's of warfare the RAF may have had Jet Fighters by the mid thirty's but they refused to believe Whittles invention was necessary or even workable and a similar thing happened with MIXED UNIT TACTIC's, between the wars the Germans were technically prohibited from rearming by the Versae treaty but that did not prevent Civilian German Observors attending western war game's, a young British leutenant had the idea of mixing ground and air with naval forces in one excercise and trounced his openant but was actually berated by his superiors for incorrect use of military forces while a Civilian German Observor took the idea back home and we all know where that went of course - the Blitz Krieg.

The German's made a number of assumption based errors in there tactic's as well, they for instance did not believe the Allies had radar and would have never guessed that though a different type of radar (the principles were the same) the British radar was in fact superior to there own.

The German's however did as late in the war as late 1944 develop a new type of weapon that could very well even at that late stage have changed the course of the war, it was not there inovative cruise missile the V1 or there devestating (but resource hungry) high altitude rocket the V2 but it was something even more revolutionary for the time, an air craft launched wire guided anti ship missile system.

This Guided missile was tested successfully in life action against a troop ship, the troop ship was sunk and the service personel on board (US) were of course lost but thankfully the air craft never reached German territory to report it's success and was shot down on the way back leaving the German's to assume failure, of course we learned and later developed our own version's of wire guided missiles.

The Germans had an aversion to Einstein in part because he was a JEW but still persued the Nuclear Bomb, this aversion however meant that Quantum theory or rather it's precursor actually recieved it's first real research in NAZI germany, as for the nuclear bomb telemark was a important allied action but did you know that the British were actually perhaps a year ahead of the NAZI's in this field, all the British research, Material's and most of it's high ranking scientists were sent to the US to form a unified team and propelled the US research ahead as a result with of course Openheimer claiming the credit? but that aside given the NAZI's priority it may have propelled them to the point were the race for the bomb may have been closer than anyone think's, there is also some anecdotal information that they may have continued researching it and the infamous UFO forum loved event's of the 1947 Operation high jump by the US which sent a unified task force to Antarctica nearly two years after NAZI germany had collapsed may indicate the possible presence of ongoing NAZI research even at this post war period, about six months after Bird's expedition RETREATED from the antarcic there was a seismic event in antarctica which though it may have been an earthquake could also just as easily have been a device detonated beneath the ice.
www.rense.com...

Lastly let's not forget the German invention of the STG 44 Sturmgewehr Assault rifle, the German's had met the unarmed soviet death charge and seen how it had successfully overrun there positions time and again, there sub machine gun did not have the accuracy or the range necessary and was suited really only to indoor or street by street fighting while there rifles lacked the rate of fire so they developed this the worlds first assault rifle, it was too complicated and prone to jamming en.wikipedia.org...
But it was actually superior to the M16 with was developed much later after the allies had there own human tidal wave experience in Korea, it also inspired the AK47 which was independantly developed.

Just a note of trivia, the AK47 is less accurate (but only when the machining is coarse and only when it uses substandard produced ammunition) but it fires a much larger round than the M16 and was catagorised as a light anti vehicle weapon capable of penetrating light vehicle armour, the M16 was of course designed solely as an anti personel weapon, has a probably higher cyclic fire rate and greater accuracy but less impact force for each round due to smaller round size, the STG 44 used a custom shortened rifle round so would have stacked more along the lines of somewhere between these two but was too complicated with too many part's and far too highly engineered meaning that it was even more suseptible to dirt than the mk 1 M16's which failed so dreadfully in vietnam before the US chromed the barrels and the GI's took to covering them in condom's but the M16 even then remained the superior anti personell assault rifle, I wonder though how it would have stacked up to the STG 44 had that original assault rifle recieved more development time.