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Define "Conservatism". What It Means. What Qualifies One. Opinions Wanted.

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posted on Jan, 23 2016 @ 07:03 PM
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originally posted by: ketsuko
I think part of the difficulty of pro-choice and conservative is the right to life issue. It gets to be enough that there are conservatives who swear off the death penalty over it.

You start thinking about the issue critically and you start to realize that it's hard to say exactly when you draw the line on what is or isn't human life, and if you don't know, you should err on the side of caution. That interferes with a woman's right to choose because you start to think she could be ending a human life arbitrarily over her own convenience.

If you get that far, then it's hard to reconcile pro-choice and respect for a human's basic right to life.


Provocative question here.

Rapes in Cologne Germany. If one's daughter was a victim of it, would one be "Pro Life"?

I'm risking severe thread drift on that, but I needed to ask it.




posted on Jan, 23 2016 @ 07:03 PM
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originally posted by: BatheInTheFountain

originally posted by: Sublimecraft

originally posted by: BatheInTheFountain

originally posted by: Sublimecraft
a reply to: BatheInTheFountain

A philosophy where maintaining traditional values, traditions and customs are encouraged.


Devils Advocate here.

Can you define what "Tradition" is?


A belief or behaviour passed down from previous generations that has special or significant meaning within a specific demographic of society.


Vague. Which "Demographic" would that be?

Honest questions for reference, not trying to bait. I'm trying to get people's detailed opinion and for us to ask ourselves about the labels.


For instance, Native American Indians have specific traditions still practiced today, same with Maoris from New Zealand or Aboriginals from Australia, certain tribes in PNG still practice cannibalism and bloodletting as well.

In sporting for example, Rugby Union test matches with The All Blacks playing always starts the game with the Haka.

In Japan, it is customary to bow when greeting someone.



posted on Jan, 23 2016 @ 07:05 PM
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a reply to: BatheInTheFountain

I tend to think those are social outcroppings or markers of conservatism, not a definition.



posted on Jan, 23 2016 @ 07:05 PM
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Agreed.

Can we include Constitutionalism as a "Conservative" value?


I would say yes, simply because the meaning of the Conserve, is to try to save something that already exists.
edit on 23-1-2016 by Punisher75 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 23 2016 @ 07:06 PM
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originally posted by: Sublimecraft

originally posted by: BatheInTheFountain

originally posted by: Sublimecraft

originally posted by: BatheInTheFountain

originally posted by: Sublimecraft
a reply to: BatheInTheFountain

A philosophy where maintaining traditional values, traditions and customs are encouraged.


Devils Advocate here.

Can you define what "Tradition" is?


A belief or behaviour passed down from previous generations that has special or significant meaning within a specific demographic of society.


Vague. Which "Demographic" would that be?

Honest questions for reference, not trying to bait. I'm trying to get people's detailed opinion and for us to ask ourselves about the labels.


For instance, Native American Indians have specific traditions still practiced today, same with Maoris from New Zealand or Aboriginals from Australia, certain tribes in PNG still practice cannibalism and bloodletting as well.

In sporting for example, Rugby Union test matches with The All Blacks playing always starts the game with the Haka.

In Japan, it is customary to bow when greeting someone.


I understand what traditions are.

So what is a traditional "Conservative" circa 2016. ?

Where is the line?



posted on Jan, 23 2016 @ 07:06 PM
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originally posted by: Punisher75


Agreed.

Can we include Constitutionalism as a "Conservative" value?


I would say yes, simply because the meaning of the Conserve, is to try to save something that already exists.


I can accept that. That's 1 plank I can put in the slot....I think



posted on Jan, 23 2016 @ 07:07 PM
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a reply to: BatheInTheFountain

Understand that when you ask me about this that I have been married for 20 years to a man who's mother was an unwed 16-year-old who gave him up for adoption. He missed falling inside the R v W ruling by a single year. Had he been a year younger than he is ... I might never have had the opportunity to ever know him.

That being said, I am not someone who would favor forcing anyone to carry the child of a rape to term. I think it's horrible that such a child is punished for something not its fault, but I understand.

I DO however think we should recognize what happened, and tack a charge in manslaughter on to the rapist's sentence. I'd say murder, but he didn't intend for a pregnancy to result.



posted on Jan, 23 2016 @ 07:11 PM
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originally posted by: Sublimecraft
a reply to: BatheInTheFountain

A philosophy where maintaining traditional values, traditions and customs are encouraged.


I'd largely agree with this definition provided by Sublimecraft. The problem being the maintaining portion of that description. That would be accurate in the day. The problem being that which should have been maintained...wasn't and has been lost.

As a result, many have moved to the restoration mode over maintaining. This act/intent of restoring and degree of it varies wildly. Some definitely could now be deemed radicalized. Much cannot. For example, the current psycho/social media has positioned issues very slickly, your for 'diversity' or your a bigot. Not much wiggle room if one allows their premise to go without rebuttal.

Bottom line is it is a political description. Therefore subjective and highly subject to manipulation.

In my case, I would consider dissolving the Union to be a fair, humane, balanced...well, conservative idea. The idea that each state could and should dictate the direction and degree in a direction it wishes to go. Those choosing to band together and restoring a more original Constitution would and could do so. Those more interested in a revised/updated version could also do so. ( yes, yes, many problems with that. Far better than collapse and revolution, IMO)

Others would view that option with horror who also call themselves conservatives. I am not Christian, but fully support the Judeo-Christian moral code which served this nation so well in the past. Therefore I support Christianity, politically, as no viable alternative seems forthcoming.

Very hard to cubby-hole either side from my experience. Generally, a coalition where the majority of the points have earned agreement.

Does that make any sense?



posted on Jan, 23 2016 @ 07:11 PM
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originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: BatheInTheFountain

Understand that when you ask me about this that I have been married for 20 years to a man who's mother was an unwed 16-year-old who gave him up for adoption. He missed falling inside the R v W ruling by a single year. Had he been a year younger than he is ... I might never have had the opportunity to ever know him.

That being said, I am not someone who would favor forcing anyone to carry the child of a rape to term. I think it's horrible that such a child is punished for something not its fault, but I understand.

I DO however think we should recognize what happened, and tack a charge in manslaughter on to the rapist's sentence. I'd say murder, but he didn't intend for a pregnancy to result.



So is a "Conservative" one who is Pro Life, Pro Choice in cases of rape, incest, danger to health, or Pro Choice entirely?

Which one is the acceptable line in the sand?



posted on Jan, 23 2016 @ 07:12 PM
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originally posted by: BatheInTheFountain

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: BatheInTheFountain

Definitions are changing all the time to suit different ideological needs.

socialism is supposed to be awesome now. Authoritarian ideologies just mean more freedom, blah blah blah.

So what does conservatism mean?

I'd probably use any definition coined before 1980 personally.


Which is why I started the thread. I want people to define the things they label themselves as, me included.

I think the definition should have a meaning. And I want to know what precludes one from being a "Conservative" or what MAKES one a Conservative.

It's interesting what people's different opinions are.


I am called a conservative because I want smaller government.

Simply for that reason alone, I guess I get the label.



posted on Jan, 23 2016 @ 07:17 PM
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originally posted by: BatheInTheFountain

originally posted by: Sublimecraft

originally posted by: BatheInTheFountain

originally posted by: Sublimecraft

originally posted by: BatheInTheFountain

originally posted by: Sublimecraft
a reply to: BatheInTheFountain

A philosophy where maintaining traditional values, traditions and customs are encouraged.


Devils Advocate here.

Can you define what "Tradition" is?


A belief or behaviour passed down from previous generations that has special or significant meaning within a specific demographic of society.


Vague. Which "Demographic" would that be?

Honest questions for reference, not trying to bait. I'm trying to get people's detailed opinion and for us to ask ourselves about the labels.


For instance, Native American Indians have specific traditions still practiced today, same with Maoris from New Zealand or Aboriginals from Australia, certain tribes in PNG still practice cannibalism and bloodletting as well.

In sporting for example, Rugby Union test matches with The All Blacks playing always starts the game with the Haka.

In Japan, it is customary to bow when greeting someone.


I understand what traditions are.

So what is a traditional "Conservative" circa 2016. ?

Where is the line?


Someone who does not wish for government law makers to create laws that are not in keeping with that particular individuals long-held and maintained values or to take away any freedoms that have previously existed or to create an environment where that particular individuals values, customs and traditions are at risk of being marginalized through social pressure and propaganda programs.



posted on Jan, 23 2016 @ 07:18 PM
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a reply to: BatheInTheFountain

I think most that I know of understand instances of medical necessity. In those cases, it is the choice of the mother to decide. Some will be like Tebow's mom.

You are going to have more resistance on rape and incest, but likely not nearly as much as you think. Even here, a lot of people are going to agree that if a woman's choice was taken from her, then she needs to have it back.



posted on Jan, 23 2016 @ 07:21 PM
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I am also seeing conservatism being talked about as if it wants to stagnate.

That isn't true either.

Conservatism recognizes that if things are long-standing traditions or "have always been done that way," there is often a reason why society has crystallized around this or that tradition, and while they are not averse to change, they do expect any proposed changes to come with good arguments and proof of concept as to why the old order should be subverted or changed for the new.

Will the new be better? OK, we're game so long as you can demonstrate that it is.

We are usually suspicious of the idea of change for the sake of change.



posted on Jan, 23 2016 @ 07:22 PM
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originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: BatheInTheFountain

I think most that I know of understand instances of medical necessity. In those cases, it is the choice of the mother to decide. Some will be like Tebow's mom.

You are going to have more resistance on rape and incest, but likely not nearly as much as you think. Even here, a lot of people are going to agree that if a woman's choice was taken from her, then she needs to have it back.



I like the input. I'm really trying to get the 'benchmark' for what the "Conservative" line is.

You have no responsibility to answer or define that as you can't, and no ONE person can define that line for the rest of the group. We all have a different version.

But it seems to me that the abortion issue is CENTRAL to the "Who is Conservative" debate. So I wonder.

Thanks for the responses.



posted on Jan, 23 2016 @ 07:23 PM
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To me, BORDERS are a very important "tradition"...if you will.

One to "Conserve"...I'll throw that out.



posted on Jan, 23 2016 @ 07:27 PM
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Many of the issues you are throwing out are Republican, not strictly Conservative.

Like the antithetical viewpoint would be Democrat, but not strictly Liberal.



posted on Jan, 23 2016 @ 07:28 PM
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What a "conservative" politician does, and what a "conservative" politician believes in are never mutually exclusive.
When they get into office they prove it.

A true "conservative" only lives in dictionaries, encyclopedias, and red, white and blue, sparkling, wishful thinking.





posted on Jan, 23 2016 @ 07:28 PM
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a reply to: BatheInTheFountain

I would think it would be enough to generally say that pro-life errs on the side of recognizing the personhood of a child in the womb at some point before birth.

(We can try delving into the minutiae of when but that does derail the thread considerably. I think it's enough to recognize that babies can and have been born at various points in their gestation and thrived, so it's logical to conclude they become capable of humanity well before their formal end of gestation date.)



posted on Jan, 23 2016 @ 07:36 PM
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Is being a Christian a rule for being Conservative?

Can we at least define that benchmark?

Yea or Nay?



posted on Jan, 23 2016 @ 07:47 PM
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originally posted by: BatheInTheFountain
Is being a Christian a rule for being Conservative?

Can we at least define that benchmark?

Yea or Nay?




Nay, imho



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