Baddogma's Meta Cafe- Polite Discussions About Scientific Mysticism and General Weirdness

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

What you see in meditation is just as "real" as anything else.

Is a dream real? You had it, you experienced it. You woke up and remembered it.

We don't say we had "fake" dreams.

A dream or illusion is just a species of reality, as real as anything else your consciousness bumps into as you wander around.

Anything you experience is capable of teaching you something.

The more you experience, the more detailed your dimensional map of reality and the world becomes.

Everything holds value if you flip it around, examine it, study it and bend your mind to see it.

a reply to: MystikMushroom

Yes - reminds of a question posed elsewhere:

Look at a table (any object will do) now close your eyes and imagine a table (or whatever object you picked) what kind of wood is it made from, how is it assembled, what colour .....


Now which of the 2 is 'realer' to your mind?

Sorry I haven't explained that well but i hope you understand what i am trying to convey.

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

I don't ever take offence over a post. So don't worry, speak your mind!
And thanks, the respect and feelings are mutual!

oh I will profit. Surly!

even if your opinions are different than mine, but who cares about small stuff : )
Every prospective has some value. Even if they are opposing each other like water and fire. But water can put out the fire or be heated by it. So for me it is more of a matter of implications than just gathering or disregarding some info. So naturally I think you will benefit too from me and other posts. Just for the sake of entertaining different perspectives!

i get it, what you say. But you know what I ask sometimes myself.

Do we get them?

...after all those times or have we (with our scientific understanding) went so off the mark that we are not even close?
Real spirituality is dead in modern word. There may be some real hidden masters left with a few students but that is all. So in general our level of spiritual understanding is so low that it is not even funny in the east or in west.

So how can we get them today? There are no real masters (IMO!) in public and everything is shrouded in mystery and confusion. Only possibility to get them is by self study and training or if you are lucky enough to get an advanced master.

No other way.

So what limits we impose on reality is dependent on only our personal image of the universe which is constructed by our surroundings and experiences.
You are a scientist so it's normal that your mind can't accept some things. And that is cool, what kinda scientist would you have been otherwise hehe ... it could be argued even know...that you are a mad scientist : ) ( - meant positively!)

I for now am open to possibility of rainbow bodies and all the siddhis and even dakinis or anything else one can read in various texts like heaven or hell (not meant as Christian concept!). Everything is in the nature of emptiness after all, like you said - no limits, infinity possibilities and various types of beings and manifestations of universes. And some bengs like dakinis who are already past all our limitations can even travel in our dreams or psychical or other realities (but this rarely happens). well maybe...who knows for sure, right?

But although they have nothing to do with our physical world - but that is not our limit or end goal of a person like me anyway, so I don't bother with distinction real - dreaming anymore! when it comes to universal spiritual knowledge. I can learn in a dream even faster than in reality. Whatever I think - I do instantly, also I could dream a whole lifetime or ten, but slept for only five minutes. But controlling thoughts is the big issue currently for me, to use dreaming for such implications.

heh one time I tried to meditate in a lucid dream. And wow...it was intense. Immediately I felt many energies rising in and around the dream body and after I few dream seconds I woke up...Will have to try it again, when I got better mental control!

...now about kundalini. In tibetan buddhism or zen is it totally overlooked and not given much thought. They raise it without much attention. They learn only a few meditation techniques on emptiness and study philosophy and than it will happen naturally but only when body and mind is ready. In such way experiences can be even blissful and of pleasure when kundalini is rising. After all they bypass many problems if raising occurs prematurely, which happens a lot due to foolishness and arrogance of some people in various yoga system, which are focused too much on only prana control but don't put importance on the mind training.

For me this means that real juice is somewhere else, but kundalini is a part of it and it happens when it happens.

Man, realy sorry for another lengthy post - I did not expect I would write so much. geez!
When I start typing, stuff just flows and I don't know when should I stop. And also I like to explain things clearly as possible so there are no misunderstandings. I will try to be shorter in the future. But no promises! : )

originally posted by: MystikMushroom
a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

What you see in meditation is just as "real" as anything else.

Is a dream real? You had it, you experienced it. You woke up and remembered it.

We don't say we had "fake" dreams.

A dream or illusion is just a species of reality, as real as anything else your consciousness bumps into as you wander around.

Anything you experience is capable of teaching you something.

The more you experience, the more detailed your dimensional map of reality and the world becomes.

Everything holds value if you flip it around, examine it, study it and bend your mind to see it.

"Anything you experience is capable of teaching you something.

The more you experience, the more detailed your dimensional map of reality and the world becomes.

Everything holds value if you flip it around, examine it, study it and bend your mind to see it. "

I agree with the first sentence, quite strongly.

But Unifinity and i were discussing things from the standpoint of those who go through things from a certain more traditional standpoint; which as is quite obvious, I'm not "traditional", but in a few ways those traditions are more correct than not correct.

Meditation is actually a trap. Using meditation as a springboard to "reality creation" or even "reality perception" is a trap..and I know that is frustrating.. but it's reality.

I know it's not the usual new age hippy dippy stuff.. but I don't do new age hippy dippy. i formerly did, all the way up to the 90's.. but as it turns out, all that stuff is wrong.

Now, I'm not meaning to demean your path or view.

It's quite true that we all go through various stages, and that even "ignorance" is a form of "truth".

I'm in no position to wave my spirit rattle and proclaim that what other people are doing is wrong.. as individuals anyway.. but I'm certainly free to call ignorant stuff twaddle.. just like everyone else is free to call everything I've learned twaddle.

You for example have brilliant things to discuss on a regular basis. But that doesn't mean that any of it will ever be my cup of tea, and vice versa.

Thank you as always. The world is a better place for being here.

Kev

originally posted by: johnb
a reply to: MystikMushroom

Yes - reminds of a question posed elsewhere:

Look at a table (any object will do) now close your eyes and imagine a table (or whatever object you picked) what kind of wood is it made from, how is it assembled, what colour .....


Now which of the 2 is 'realer' to your mind?

Sorry I haven't explained that well but i hope you understand what i am trying to convey.

No it's spot on.

There is a huge, huge difference between say "yoga" (which yokes you with nothing other than delusion), and say shamanism or one of the "Left Hand Paths" such as Tantra or certain forms of LHP Buddhism, where, possibly unbeknownst to the practitioner, something beyond the human imagination becomes involved.

Our brains are Universe-class deception and virtual reality machines.

The primary error of "mysticism" is that our brains can deceive us to an infinite degree... what we perceive to be reality is not reality..

The "real goal of meditation" is to build "circuits" on a rather vast scale.. to rewire large numbers of the bodies systems, to allow for a symbiotic relationship with other sentient aspects of reality.

Which scares everyone.

Most people when they get "visited" by something that can move things around or whatever, think that they have done something evil, or "summoned a demon". Well moving things around is not generally "spiritually uplifting".. and I just use it as an example of non-delusion.

These are definitely the sort of things to discuss.

Thank you

Kev

a reply to: UniFinity

This is a chat forum after all! Chat away!

This:

"Real spirituality is dead in modern word. "

Real spirituality has always been dead in this world, once the age of shaman's ended anyway.

It IS strongly required to form a good, strong, logical mind.. but the mind is in itself the "golden noose" as they used to say.

It appears that since humans have unplugged from the ancient symbiotic relationships with nature, and since humans have decided to destroy nature and all life that "consequences will follow that are not surprising".

It's sad.

And it's happening just like here, on a billion, billion worlds.

It probably can't be stopped.

As for my being a "scientist";

That's not entirely correct.

I've been a technologist for many years, especially nuclear reactor technology and operations, and computer technology, I'm not a 'scientist'. I have never claimed to be. Though I do highly respect the scientific method. It is a superior method of thought.. far exceeding most other forms of thought.

In fact friend, i have spent years (more in the past than now), interacting with other worlds so to speak.. visiting with even (as the Hindus would say) the "Lord Shiva and his consorts Kali, Shakti, and all the rest" - "in their home".. and beyond the mere ArchTulpa level, to the core of the void.. which is in actually the "fullness" spent long periods of time in the pre-awakening "perfection" with the dot of restlessness.... during the sleepy time of "god" between cycles. There is no "password" or "lock" on even that.... we are all family here..

Spent time so to speak in "overworld", where the majority of sentient beings live..intertwined with sentient forces of nature.

Spent much time with "she who must be obeyed" - our world's mother of tricksters that we have created.. but who was pre-existing.

But I don't talk about these things.. hardly at all.

As what is important is the basics.. people ALWAYS try to skip the basics, and thus wind up with nothing but self-generated deception.

Of course others may say that is what I've done.

But I don't "glory in all that stuff".

Even if true, it's a hindrance to taking one simple step forward.

And that my friend..

is "true shamanism", "true yoga", "true religion".

IMHO

Kevin

a reply to: Baddogma

Here's why I find "New Age" thought so distasteful, personally.

When I found my first teacher (I ran him down and exhausted him for years, until he would share anything useful with me), he listened to me a great deal. I told him all my "New Age rubbish thoughts" and he smiled and listened, and even participated a bit with stories from his youth. I loved him.

But then he told me that I know nothing.

I argued and argued with him.

It got positively 'vicious'.

I even went so far as to invade his personal body and to look around at his being and thoughts.

I told him about his hidden thoughts and fears.

He did not have these "abilities' (could have been shrewd psychological guesses, yes).

But you know what?

I was wrong.

Dead wrong.

100% ignorant.

If you think that I'm bad about "new age thought"; you shoulda heard him go on about it.. and especially about "people from california".

But he was right.

Even after all these years, I'm such an ignorant fellow.

What's far more humorous actually, is that I took him up on his challenge of studying his system in detail; in studying all the works of his 'now dead holy man', who, yes, was absolutely brilliant.

He told me that I had to learn all this material, and understand every line.

There were dozens and dozens of books, including priceless one of a kind treateses from ancient Kashmir, written in Sanskrit/Tamil and translated by experts.. dealing entirely with Kundalini and "enlightenment".

He told me that I was not allowed to speak, with new thought, until I'd mastered all this stuff, and then if I had the temerity to say "something new", I had better be "brilliant".

So I did.

I diagnosed his now dead holy man as having Asperger's Syndrome like myself.

He thew me out.

Not only did I deconstruct the old, precious, nearly can't be found works...

I deconstructed the modern-ish "mysticism mixed with science" works of the "now dead holy man", who yes, for his time, was indeed a spiritual genius.

So I'm outcast from every single tradition in the world.

I'm of course outcast from "science" as well.

But I have lived the life of a billion lifetimes, and at the very least, I'd say that I'm a pretty interesting fellow.. and it's wishless wish, that i might pass on a little bit for people to ponder (not blindly adopt) before I go.

Kev

originally posted by: KellyPrettyBear

Obviously.

You've read The Gut's control loop thread (s), right?

Ever think that the "control loop" is doing everything in it's power to prevent you from "catching god in a butterfly net"?

That's how it goes you know...

Men, more specifically, are known to "try to rip off the veil off the lady" to learn her secrets.

But the lady only gets naked for her lovers.

My first teacher helped me to learn that. The crabby old son o' bitch coot. People always love/hate their teachers you see.
That old fraud / loser, taught me maybe 3 things. All the rest was ridiculous, confused noise, and mooning over his dead holy man.

But I love him, always and forever, the piece of dung.

Kev

Besides being funny this can't be true!
That's so deeply hardwired in us, part of our nature, it has to serve a purpose: secrets are there to get exposed. Riddles are meant to be solved and so on.
I am a lady too so maybe she's lesbian and let me look...

Maybe I should try to free myself from every bias, fast for 80 days (as in tries extra hard) sleep on a bed of opuntias and all that on the south pole, naked, to get the answers...

No I won't.
But the problem with this stuff is: the solution is the problem. You have to explore this kind of things with your mind, while at the same time the imagination in your mind is your biggest enemy in matters of "finding truth".
How to fix that?

a reply to: Peeple

It's 'easy' once you know the trick.

Yes, the Lady takes all true lovers.

Maybe I should post the instructions after work. What a pain. People will just argue, as it's easy/hard work.

And the reason Its not fair?

That's a short/long one too.

Talk past you later!

My friend.

Kev

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

easy/hard work and a short/long story?
Can't wait to hear that!

a reply to: Peeple

It's actually fairly easy....But we sabatogue ourselves as You know.

Kev

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

What's the trick?

originally posted by: johnb
a reply to: MystikMushroom

Yes - reminds of a question posed elsewhere:

Look at a table (any object will do) now close your eyes and imagine a table (or whatever object you picked) what kind of wood is it made from, how is it assembled, what colour .....


Now which of the 2 is 'realer' to your mind?

Sorry I haven't explained that well but i hope you understand what i am trying to convey.

When you dream, your body responds just as if you were awake. The areas of the brain responsible for sight, smell, hearing -- all of these are active during a dream. It's an experience, just as real as anything else.

To dismiss things into categories as "real" or "fake" is a limiting belief in my opinion. Most people only people have awake and asleep as their two main modes of consciousness.

If you have a wake, asleep and meditation -- you now have three points of awareness to better triangulate yourself.

And, on top of those -- there are even more baroque mental states out there.

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

huh, that was awesome post!

Especially the last part. Great hint. I had to read it a few times, but I get it! : )

I am still trying to do that.

at least it is something which has been bothering me now for a month or two! It is something completely natural. But we are so damn easily distracted with our thoughts that we cannot return back to when we were very young and without language and one with nature and our instinct. Cheerful and natural state and present with full attention.

is there some secret in the breath. ... well maybe : )

I think that is very close to something ... for me at the moment, well I will figure it out eventually...true yoga! : )

Any hints or advices?

What you were saying before that it is amazing also. But it is just as you say, another hindrance, just like everything else!!

I see now, much better with who am I talking to behind the monitor.
But well it may be that I totally missed the point of your step statement...but it certainly triggered my intuition!

Anyway thanks for sharing a bit of your story, what an amazing journey it must have been...old wise Shaman

But I think that even though spirituality is not as it should have been. Thanks to technology, we can get all the books by the net. We have that going for us - Self seekers at least. And some of books are a amazing. Like the dasbodha by: sadguru shree samarth. In there for instance it is explained very much to the point, how should one do sadhana and reach self realization. Or in buddhism you have The surangama sutra. Also amazing and very precise book with many great info and insights how one should meditate and look within and prepare his mind for the true yoga. Very different approaches, but essentially the same. Just like with yoga or any other philosophy.

Well I know that books can't help like a guru with redirecting you to the heart.
But with a ton of contemplation, meditation and reading one has a real chance to do that...I hope, I am that one and one of many seekers with such approach.
: )

a reply to: MystikMushroom

While it is true what you wrote, in my experience dreams and meditation and other states are more symbolic than reality is. So there is a difference. I wouldn't call it fake but imagination.

And with imagination I mean "internal communication". Who is part of the internal is maybe a whole different question...

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

You see to have a very definitive "path"?

I'm not on a "path". A path implies some course, direction and hopeful destination.

If anything I'm wandering around, rolling over rocks and seeing what lies underneath. I have no destination in mind.

None of us (you included) have any answers.

Isn't that the joke of it all? We'll never figure it out, we'll never have solid "answers"? As soon as we think we have a handle on something, it slips out of our fingers like a bar of soap.

None of whatever "this" is (moves arms around) seems to be designed to be understood. From what others have seen and my own stuff, it seems to be an endless rabbit hole/trap/maze/puzzle.

It's still interesting looking at what's under the rocks though...

All we can do is share information and compare notes, perhaps gaining new viewpoints on ideas we've pondered.

a reply to: Peeple

Things are only different because you deem them that way.

We make mental categories and sort experiences into them. As we collect experiences and memories, we seem to form preconceived expectations of what is "real" and what isn't. It's a form of domestication in a sense.

The culture we're brought up in influences our expectations, and we mimic and behave like those we are surrounded by. The shared values of the community become our values, the shared expectations become our expectations.

If you were to travel deep into the Amazon, the peoples there wouldn't understand how we separate our dreams from our waking realities. To those people, dreams are just as important, real and capable of teaching and guiding them as a parent or mentor.

It really is only limiting beliefs that keep us from seeing things in new ways.

a reply to: netbound

I think its a pretty neat topic, really. I think its all a product of our mind, but so is our perception of reality. In that, such experiences can be invaluable in growing what we know to be true, and how our minds 'base state' programming affects it.

As KPB (hiya K) said though, these things can become a trap when we start to believe that the malleability of our perspective is indicative of some external control.

Its similar in behavior to the reaction towards synchronicity. The specific instances of awareness seem out of place and "special," but they are more indicative of the limits of our foundational perspective. Many get pulled into the "specialness" aspect, instead of as hard evidence of our limitations. In reality, everything is synchronistic. So, when we start dwelling on specific instances, it limits anything further.

In much the same way, many will take OOBE, astral projections, etc. as the special thing to focus on when they are pointing so clearly at areas of possible growth and movement rather than focus and stagnation.

'Infinity' is certainly beyond our comprehension, but interestingly, we can experience it all the same. It lies right beyond the interface we have programmed to interact with the world. Its sort of an active participation in perception, where stimuli comes in "as is" first, rather than being parsed by our mind, then examined. Cutting out the middle man, in a way.

The former almost feels like falling sometimes, like we are actively dancing with the cosmos instead of interacting with the archetypes of our own mind.

When this becomes the baseline programming, the perceived anomalous events simply become another part of the experience. Not something to be held up high on its own merits, but the fact it is all part of the same tapestry.

We have spent so much time trapped in the threads, with some advancing to the individual images they weave, that we have forgotten we are the one with the needle. And once the realization is made, we experience turtles all the way down even when our mind can't parse it due to lack of existing context.

a reply to: MystikMushroom

If you were to travel deep into the Amazon, the peoples there wouldn't understand how we separate our dreams from our waking realities. To those people, dreams are just as important, real and capable of teaching and guiding them as a parent or mentor.

I guess the same could be said of the Australian aborigines and their dream time.

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

You know...

For one human being to seek understanding and enlightenment from another human being...

That's like one atom seeking understanding and enlightenment from another atom.