Baddogma's Meta Cafe- Polite Discussions About Scientific Mysticism and General Weirdness

This thread caught my eye for a reason; a very personal reason. By nature I’m quite skeptical when it comes to extraordinary claims. I don’t think hopelessly closed minded, just very skeptical. As a matter of fact, I recall only once posting to the ‘paranormal studies’ forum (2 years ago), and I’m a virgin in ‘the grey area’. So please, be gentle with me.

I believe I was 19 at the time (about 20 years ago, before oobe was cool), I was introduced to it (oobe) in a very up close and personal way. At the time, I had never heard of it or read anything about it, and was completely unaware of the phenomenon. However, I was quite familiar with other altered states of consciousness, and quite vigorously pursued them. :-) Due to the high level of strangeness, though, to this day I still recall those oobe experiences (had several of them) quite vividly. Nothing as elaborate as some I’ve read about since then, but the basic dynamics/mechanics were much the same. Remember, I was ignorant about the oobe phenomena while it was happening to me, and so the experiences really alarmed me.

My skeptical/logical mind told me that my brain had simply played a really trippy trick on me, and I pretty much left it at that. I never even mentioned it to anyone else because I knew they would question my mental stability. After all, I was questioning it myself!

I only had 3 or 4 oobe’s, and they all occurred during a brief 2-3 month period. I never had one before that and have never had another one since. When it occurred each time I was completely sober (I swear!), not overly stressed about any particular issue in my life, and I was not attempting in any way to enter an altered state of awareness. It simply happened.

OK, the following are things I’ve read regarding the oobe’s experienced by others, with my own personal recollection of my experience after that:

Related by others: While lying down to sleep, but not yet out, it began.
My experience : For me each experience began the same way. I would lie down to take a mid-afternoon nap. Before going to sleep, and while still conscious (awake and aware) it would begin.

Related by others: Felt a sensation of being pulled from body, and felt stuck halfway out. Then suddenly was released, floating in the room...
My experience : I began to have a strange feeling, like a tugging sensation. My legs were first to go. I could actually feel them slowly rising into the air and seperating from my phyical body, which remained motionless on the bed. This was a bit disconcerting; I was frightfully aware of what was happening, but was physically unable to stop it. In a sense like sleep paralysis. Hmmm... It even occurred to me that I might be dying. Then, I felt stuck for a moment, probably due to the fact that I was resisting it with all my might. But it was too much for me, and suddenly the seperation was complete. I viewed my own body in vivid detail, still lying in bed, as I floated to the ceiling.

Related by others: Many have reported floating to the ceiling and then bouncing around.
My experience : So now, here I am, terrified and bouncing about the ceiling; looking down at my own body in bed. I don’t know how long or how many times I floated/bounced around the perimeter of the room at ceiling level; I had no sense of time. It scared the hell out of me! I wanted desperately to get back into my body, but didn’t know how to accomplish it. It was like nothing else in my life experience, and I felt completely out of control, helpless, and totally vulnerable to whatever force was working on me.

Related by others: Others have related they suddenly returned to their bodies, fully awake, eyes wide open AND aware, retaining acute memories of the event.
My experience : For me, it was like suddenly “BOOM!!”, and I found myself back in my body, in bed, very awake, very aware, very shaken and with crystal clear recall of everything that had just happened. For me, it then took a moment for the shock to wear off before I could even move a muscle and sit up in the bed. Again, similar to sleep paralysis. Again, hmmm...

After the first time, since I hadn’t heard of others having similar experiences, my ‘logical’ mind promptly rationalized it as a likely short in my neural circuitry. And life went on...

Well, about 2-3 weeks later and after finally getting over the first experience, WHAM! Here we go again, bouncing around the room up at the ceiling, negotiating desperately in my mind with Whoever that I would honestly make an effort to read the Bible if only he/she would stop f---ing with me. I thought, “Man, this is too much. What’s going on here? No one will ever believe this. I don’t believe this!”

Seriously, it did start to concern me, and caused me to question many things. After the second event I’m beginning to get a little leary about taking naps. Who knows where this might lead? Quite likely to the Cuckoo’s Nest, I thought.

And finally, it happened again a few weeks later. Always the same thing, and as always not a clue as to what was happening.

That’s it. After that, it never happened again. Over the years, though, I began to read of others having similar experiences and that it was called oobe. Even that some had learned to control the phenomenon and actually escape their damned room!! Looking back on it, I do wish I had known then what some others seem to know now. It would have been dynamite had I been able to control it and just go with it.

However, as bizarre as it was, and after all that I’ve read, I’m still not convinced it was anything paranormal in nature. Maybe it was just another manifestation of sleep paralysis. IDK. All I know is it was weird.

I’ve had other strange experiences, as well, but nothing like some that I’ve read around here.

Nice thread, Baddogma, and Contributors. Fun to read...

a reply to: netbound

I don't "believe in" 99% of the crap I read on ATS either.

I have researched my own form of "insanity" for 54 years now, and it's mostly for me.. I don't care (or expect for anyone else to care) about it, as I trash very close to 100% of mysticism, spirituality and religion.

Personally, I'm not a huge fan of the OOB thing.. oh sure Iv'e experienced it.. during so-called "high yoga states" of savikalpa samahdi.. but I feel it's best not to play around with "Siddhis".

Really.. I think that most of the time, "OOB" when done on purpose is more likely explainable by temporal lobe malfunctions, transient epileptic micro-seizures, Sleep Paralysis and all that.

It's like with UFOs.. I personally believe that 95% of the sightings are rubbish, and 5% are something we may never understand.. but none of it has ever been, or maybe ever will be "nuts and bolts UFOs and "aliens".

I"m actually a huge skeptic across the board (don't believe without proof).

But as you've noticed, I definitely have my "creative side".

I just wanted to welcome you.. and that it's ok to be a huge skeptic. I certainly am for what everyone else believes!

Kev

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

Thank you for the explanation -

- And thank you for all the time that went into the 5 pages of more detailed info...

...even if I never get to know what it said, I still appreciate your making the effort!!!

a reply to: netbound

wow nice stories! thanks

After many oobes, I can say that there is a lot to them in my opinion. But the difficult part is to filter what is a product of our mind and what is not. So to use this in efficient way, the mind must be as close to tranquil as you can get it or else you will see mainly your own constructs and OBE will be more similar to a lucid dream. Which means it is a very useful tool, but only rare people can use it with clear mind. But in any case it is always fun to fly around consciously and explore "the dream world" : )

I think it is great that you are sceptical. Don't take anything for granted. If one reads this thread, the only thing which seems certain is that there is a whole lot we don't know for sure. There are almost no absolutes and the only sure thing seems that there are deeper truths in our universe than what science is conforming currently. If you want to believe something, believe that.
What are they?
one should find out on his own and come to some conclusions, that would be wise. But if you don't feel like doing that it is perfectly fine also. We seem free to decide what we want to do, at least on the surface of things. : )

a reply to: lostgirl

Your welcome..

How often are the "Two Lovers" coming up for you?
Right side up or inverted?

Are you concentrating on a question, or just shuffling and throwing down the cards?

By the way.. in your heart of hearts.. do you have any idea which "power block" "owns you" or are you using the cards trying to determine that?

Kev

a reply to: UniFinity

Yes.. the typical advice is to never believe ANYTHING you see in meditation is "real" or "worthwhile". But then the devotee never knows when that is supposed to "stop" and when they are supposed to "trust" that they can perceive something that is not delusion.

And a good teacher may never tell a student the answer to that, in most cases I believe, because they themselves have no answer for that.

They may point to some mythical, far past "holy man" who presumably "made it", due to "miracles", but most of those holy men ever existed... or their 'feats' were 1000% conflated to the point of silliness.

So either you become a nihlist forever, never believing in anything..

or you become a magician or a shaman or just give up.

It's actually a fascinating point of the journey.

Kev

a reply to: BASSPLYR

I was looking forward to this story. Thanks for posting.

Postscript: I was knee-high to a grasshopper when the warlock's movie The Wraith came out -- been a fan of wraith stories since then.

Thanks!

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

indeed!

many many mind tricks before something real can start to set in our awareness. But it depends ultimately on us - for how long will we chase our tails like dogs like to do. But in our case it is mind chasing the mind or ropes and snakes : )

When we are ready to leave the doubts or fears behind us, only than the truth that we seek can start to emerge and than a devotee will accept it as it is at that point.

Courage, fearlessness.
trust in yourself.

very important to cultivate if we want to chase the truth. Maybe that's why teachers cannot do more at beginning. We must build trust in us on our own. No one can help you here but yourself.

a reply to: netbound

Thanks and thanks... and interesting. Believe me, I know the rationalist inside and that voice is a good one... but can also be mistaken, as you know.

Welcome...

originally posted by: KellyPrettyBear
a reply to: lostgirl

Your welcome..

How often are the "Two Lovers" coming up for you?
Right side up or inverted?

Are you concentrating on a question, or just shuffling and throwing down the cards?

By the way.. in your heart of hearts.. do you have any idea which "power block" "owns you" or are you using the cards trying to determine that?

Kev

It just came up the once, but it was a pretty significant reading -

- right side up, in the 'immediate future' position (if that matters)

I had concentrated on a sort of 'self' query - like, "what do I need to know?"

In my "heart of hearts", I am not aware of being 'owned' by any "power block"...so, if your shaman 'spidey senses' are tingling differently on that, it might be good if I knew.

...I use the cards when I feel the need for insight into 'myself'.

The 'Lovers' card was just kind of odd in it's positioning and coming up in 'conjunction' with 'The Tower' and 'The High Priestess'...I mean, I was able to interpret the general sense of the reading -

- but, I felt like that card was trying to 'tell me something' in particular and couldn't figure out what -

- so when I read that phrase "Two Lovers" in that post of yours, it seemed synchronous, and in my life, synchronicity always points to worthwhile information...Then again, it could have just been random coincidence

a reply to: lostgirl

Oh ok.

I was wondering where you are at in your journey.

You are fine.

Kev

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

How reassuring!! Wish I could give you 100 stars for that!!

Thanks for caring!

a reply to: UniFinity

Yup.

None of the pretty theories are worth a crap until you put skin in the game and live it.

I have skin in the game for every last thing that I've said....even statements about "she who must be obeyed", "UFOs" and even "god".

I might be wrong....but I've wrestled the whole lot of them "until dawn" so to speak....so I've been changed by the journey....and that is the whole point....not just aping some old dead dudes words who never even existed 19 times in 20.

Kev

a reply to: lostgirl

You are truly fine. You are loved and will Always be loved. You have 2 friends in high places too.

Kev

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

I think change is part of the point.

Change is a constant. Will we adapt and learn or will we stick to the old and not move on to the next lesson.

But who or what changes and what is left when there is "no one left" to change?
at the present I feel that there is (or we are) something - unchanchable - not dead or alive and outside of existence and all causes.

So for now, I would like to experiance changes as many times as I can until there is nothing left. peace of cake : )

hmm I would say that this uncachable is something which even "she" cannot control and is under its power.

(that is if you mean "Maya" by "she")

a reply to: UniFinity

I don't do the "Maya" thing.. it has no explanatory power and leads people to bad directions.

Most things are "real" in that they exist in some manner.. even if only as "thoughts in the mind of god".. but even those "thoughts" have substance.

It's like with a hologram..

Each slice is still "real", although only the ultimate source is "fully real" as the "ultimate source" has maximal information.

So you thought "she who must be obeyed" was my reference to the Eastern concept of "Maya", "Illusion" or "Delusion"?

I didn't.

I find zero value in that concept.

Now, I find value in not "wigging out" on things which are "real" but have less information content than other things which have "more".

No, I'd say that "she who must be obeyed" is just as real, or more real than most other things here on Earth... at least on a certain level (say "sprinkle Faerie dust" if you must.. but it's still physics at the end of the day).

Really.. contrary to nearly all of Eastern mysticism, it's not our job to "escape Maya". There is no escaping "Maya", not even for 'God', as even 'God' has varying levels of information content all around the Universe (s).

Everything is a show.. a painting.. a canvas.. it's just how it is.. there is nothing to escape..

Now yes, sometimes some "people" can confuse one thing for another.. or sometimes it might be possible to start living in a "new world" or "different world" due to gaining access to more/better information.

But "lower" information states are not to be despised.. you might as well wish for the destruction of all reality.

IMHO.

Kev

Morning,all

On my 2nd cuppa joe and about to start my son's schooling for the day. Had a scary dream for a change,i don't often get those. In it my dearly beloved daughter was a demon chasing me,presumably trying to kill me. I ran and evaded for a bit till i realised one never runs,you confront. So i stood still and when the demon was in arms reach i grabbed it by the arm and we locked eyes. I reminded it in a serious manner like a teacher reminding a pupil of sonething: "Now you Know this is not allowed! You have no power over me,and you Don't have the right to pull these stunts+ try to menace me- you're gonna have to leave now!
I should'nt even have to tell you this!"

It went away.There were many cats in my dream too, black cats.I put that down to an artwork i made recently featuring black cats,it was like the artwork came alive+ the cats were rearranging their positions in the composition of the work

Nice day to everyone

a reply to: Raxoxane

You handled that well. Perfectly.

It needn't be any harder than that.

Morning!

I'm about to go to bed at 10:24 PM PST.

Kev

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

oh i see and also agree on some points.

yes despise of "lower information" states. And very often it is so as you say.
.. it certainly passes some time, until we really recognize that despise, hate, non acceptance or such things are the real issue and not the lower states.

Ego is a tricky bastard after all, but it is our own limited self, but self nonetheless! : )

Really.. contrary to nearly all of Eastern mysticism, it's not our job to "escape Maya". There is no escaping "Maya", not even for 'God', as even 'God' has varying levels of information content all around the Universe (s).

Everything is a show.. a painting.. a canvas.. it's just how it is.. there is nothing to escape..

here we come again at the same old dilemma of interpretation.
who is who and what is what when reading various scripture.

We have different things in mind sometimes I feel, at least when reading this post about who gets self-realization and escaping maya? Body or mind has nothing to do with escape! They are part of what is wrong after all. But I know you already know that...just to make it clear for the people reading : )

Eastern mysticism as all others can be interpreted in many ways. These texts are written in general so that they must be read more between the lines than not. And each person will get out of it, only what the mind can accept at certain stage and not much more. So it helps to read same hard text many times after a while until you are without a doubt of the real meaning.

So I think when we read some text, we should not read the words, but try to understand the real meaning, meant by the author.
But I dont want to say I have the right meaning and you have wrong one. No!. No right or wrong. Just different interpretation suited for our current level of development in understanding real nature of reality which author tries to explain.

In my opinion many Eastern mysticism likes to tell the things from absolute prospective and not relative - not from prospective of body and mind.
And until this realization it can be confusing to understand them correctly and can cause even more illusions of grandeur (I am god etc...). And furthermore, they also switch between perspectives without any reason, just to mess with our heads, yeah real chicky : )

So words such as self, Self, I, real I, non-I, real-self and when they represent soul, atman, I, etc. this must be understood correctly and translated in each sentence separately depending on the context of whole statement.

self realization has nothing to do with the mind and body, true, but although in a very advanced level, I think that even all body elements can be transformed. Google rainbow body in tibetan buddhism. Very interesting stuff for me.

a reply to: UniFinity

I do like talking with you.. you have done some studying and your mind is working just fine.

This:

"In my opinion many Eastern mysticism likes to tell the things from absolute prospective and not relative - not from prospective of body and mind. The sooner one realizes that the better.
And until then that can be confusing to understand correctly. And furthermore, they also switch between perspectives without any reason, just to mess with our heads : ) "

Well that's the displayed ignorance in all those scriptures.

Frankly the whole "God's eye view" style of "scripture" is not helpful to anyone, unless you can "take it down all the way to regular matter and energy.

And frankly, none of the ancients had our modern knowledge of modern matter/energy/cosmology.. so all their pretty metaphysics is pretty much pure crap.

It's better to help someone who is struggling with some very real and potent "tough love", or maybe even "love love" than to regale them with stories about heavens full of Dakinis or even cosmic shamanic spirit animals.

The reason that I personally find value in the knowledge of "Kundalini" (not the new age or 17th century and greater crap), is that it involves a real physical body.. real organs, tissues, neuropeptides.. real everything, and the linking it to something which CAN see all those vast "vistas" -- but it's not for long, i grant you that.

Like I said earlier, if you "prolong" "kundalini" past what it is for.. you are just trapping yourself in a very negative situation...

None of us are supposed to walk around like gods or prophets.. not any of us, not even once, not in the past, not in the present and not in the future --- and really there have been none.

Not one.

There have been 'flashes' of the 'borders being taken down' and a few have reported about that.. small handfuls over all of human history.

But that's no reason to build a religion around someone.. to write all these silly metaphysical books.

BTW, of course I know about the "Rainbow body" thing.. it's hot air. Just like Tao immortals. Hot air.

Theoretically possible? Sure --- in some universe..

IMHO not here.

Please take none of my comments as hostile towards you.. or even any particular culture....

I'm talking to you, like I wish someone had talked to me about 50 years ago.

Enjoy, profit from or discard - your choice.

Kev