Baddogma's Meta Cafe- Polite Discussions About Scientific Mysticism and General Weirdness

a reply to: TEOTWAWKIAIFF

Every answer is provisional. *Alfred Selacher

The crux with all those things concerning consciousness is we lack the proper symbols to express them. Someone should invent mind-math.
I love Luci. Not afraid to admit that. I wait for the 2nd Renaissance. Have there ever been darker ages than our times?
I think not, spread the light of wisdom. Humanism. Holistic humanism. But gently.


(Not the dirk, I am anal about that....buahahaha collapses on the floor, dead poet cheers to Douglas Adams*you don't have to get it, I'm crazy, my mother got me labeled... )

a reply to: Peeple

Do you see where meditation comes in to play regarding information (outside stimulus, thoughts) ?

don't think of it as some Indian thing or Buddhist cultural religious type of endeavor.

It's actually devoid of information if you let it. It's the razors edge you need to be subtle enough to see between the lines of code.

Be still so you know where you are, outside of the constant (mind control) cause and effect.. Step outside the train of experience that pushes you forward blocking free will with information momentum... From the still place you can rest and look around like oh I'm right here I get it now..

and then you can relate to everything else with a solid marker place.. Everything else is some level of reality/illusion/delusion and you can't ever know because you are not a perfect mirror..

meditation has a way of letting you reflect the information you receive in the correct ways like a perfect diamond rather than a fractured rose quartz of little clarity. Lights information diamond lasers lucy


I mean that's my take anyway.

a reply to: Reverbs

You are the 3rd person telling me to meditate, in one week. (Well plus one day, it's monday now, but still.)
I'm a magician. Not the kind that forces it's will on others and the world, but trying to balance the forces. A big part is retreat into the inner core. Kind of meditation. And I am thinking about a do-it-yourself thingy, maybe I can explain what it's about, clear up a few misunderstandings, not white not black, but grey the thin line.
The problem is, I am a bit busy and distracted. Or actively distracting myself, is maybe closer to the truth. But it could be helpful if just one person tries and stops being so ... self centered.

But as you see the words are the problem. Of course it's self centered, but not and how do you explain that to a noob, if you and I can't express it the same way even though I feel we are close to the same meaning?
Now I go and waste 8 hours of the day... maybe tonight.

originally posted by: Reverbs
a reply to: Peeple

It's actually devoid of information if you let it. It's the razors edge you need to be subtle enough to see between the lines of code.

Be still so you know where you are, outside of the constant (mind control) cause and effect.. Step outside the train of experience that pushes you forward blocking free will with information momentum... From the still place you can rest and look around like oh I'm right here I get it now..

Halleluiah, Amen, and thank you baby Jah-he-sus! Truer words have never been posted! There is no real way to explain the experience of being but that was pretty much the sum total of it there. True poetry!!!



a reply to: Peeple

Believe it or not, started re-reading Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency this past weekend because of the BBC show. You're not crazy... you're pretty d@mn funny!

haha n00b alert, wordzz do not compute, error #404 not found.

words are in my opinion many times, to "narrow" or their meaning is to much defining for explaining the reality, which is what we are doing here...

think of colors...how many shades of blue is there... ?
and we wish that all other would see blue just like we see it... and this brings us to 404.
and is there even one right definite blue? for instance if we look at the sky at the same place and time, does this mean that blueness of the sky will be the same for all?
i think that also in this case our eyes are just as tricky much like words for the mind... and we perceive differently because we have different eyes and brains.

but we can try to imagine what others are saying, not by seeing the same blue but by our own imagination of the blue - we can try to get as close as we can and try to learn something by reading between the lines.
Drop the words and fill the spaces between them with your own best interpretation by intuition...at least this is how i read metaphysical stuff ... this thread

and...as far as what i think about lasts posts...they are describing a bit of karma and cause and effect...with just different words.

if everything can be or is? imagined what is than external and what internal?
if there is such separation where is it?
if there is no separation why does it appear like it is?

if there is no separation at all...would that mean that on the most basic level there is only one thing? Information?
if this one thing extends also to the dreams...because people can share a dream and emotions or thoughts?
what or where is universe than existent? or is it non existent? what is this ONE information/particle? if it can appear to exist and not exist and what or if are there any limits?

this it part of the problem?
we would like to imagine what is limitlessness or infinity with the use of words, which bring confusion in their definitions, that is why intuition is what we should be working on...it will guide anyone to the best result for your own mind.

also if anyone would like to read a bit of what people who reached the state beyond words has to say about it, than explore their concepts of emptiness or voidness or sunyata and it is beneficial if you than meditate after reading to let intuition really kick in and try to feel the spaces.

just my 2 cents for meta cafe table

originally posted by: Mousygretchen
a reply to: BigBrotherDarkness


Whats so bad a bout a living will? I don't know the difference between a living will and the other.

Sorry for the late reply my physical environment needs more work than the digital environment...

Well, Reverbs nailed some of it... the birds of appetite waiting to pick at corpses before they are even in the ground, hovering and circling. Of course the corpses not yet corpses have a lot of unfinished business emotionally and physically as well as concerns of how things are going to go afterwards and want to see to it afterwards. Control freak business all the way :p

My issue with it is I was at the start of something and got wrangled in on their at the end of something... So while I have been taking the time to build business, future and consciousness everyone else has looked like:



Title of the episode is: Bread and Circuses and wholly seems fitting.

Of course, I don't have to do the dutiful son thing but if their will is to be done, unlike how my grandmothers played out with the vultures circling in her last years... so it is. Stressful, the older sister practically got on her hands and knees begging after dragging her husband and children around on whatever whim house after house for over 20 years and got deep in debt because of it and are at the age of just retiring. So they are "set" of course a growing family there with her children and you know how wanting to expand gets... then the other sister livid as anything that just wanted to sell everything divide it all up lump sum nest eggs etc. yet she is constantly begging common law married twice as far as law and people living together can't save a dime and buys 40 dollar shampoo that makes hair feel like straw, and a son that just left for college; so she'd be broke again in less than a year without anything to show for it.

I've given away inventions and artwork that is worth more than all of them put together has ever made in their entire lives. Not really a materialist I just value the things I have and the time spent without a bunch of drama and nonsense over transitory things that could disappear in an instant life being more important in and of itself.


Well, anyway... live well space fans

It's nice to see that more people are getting it even if not experientially but rotely as that is cause for change away from this madness that has gone on for thousands of years in well my father pissed on this rock and said as far as the eye can see and your father pissed on this rock and said as far as the eye can see and people getting pissy over a couple of rocks.

Ideas of ownership is a hell of a drug; it turns into: some idea of power, corrupts absolutely even on down to small children... hell who didn't race at recess to gain control of a swing or the jungle gym? Then it just gets and stays feral then on out.

Then enter the real adults or awakened people that just want to spank all of them so they learn individual responsibility goes further than just the individual... especially when it's appointed super hero time and all the towels are divided out in make believe time and practical reality into solving problems becomes nuh uh Bush, Obama, Merkel or whomever broke the vase while the vase still just sits there generation after generation.

So saying: Hey hold the dustpan while I sweep? Has to happen sometime.

a reply to: Peeple

Haha it seems we suffer from the same affliction once all the inner has been done the outer is kinda: meh wtf is wrong with you people? I'm gonna go have a beer... then there's that sneaking suspicion that; maybe that's what everyone else is already doing... and then political thought is yeah just throw some tax money at it create some bureaucracy yeah that'll solve it law after law after law of ineffectiveness like; what there's a law isn't there? Then someone says: No. Then someone else says: Well there should be.

...and that's society.

a reply to: BigBrotherDarkness

Love your posts on the human animal and society, haha..

Some of us go back into the madness like well, it didn't get fixed before my time, and the kids growing up are worse than I, so there doesn't seem a point And now I'm enlightened to a mad house so better drink to stay sane.. **wooo how enlightened**
I like how you said it better, but then some of us, let ourselves do that only when we must, as a rest, hide from the mad, but then step inside it again renewed, rested, and ready to try and do something..

It used to be "oh # the world is all crazy and there are no grownups and people are starving and wars ahhh I can't do it, I'm not doing enough, maybe if I was president I could make a change but I'm just me!!!"

and then you can change that to "ok well, what CAN I do then? Something small, ahh yes I'll be good to anyone I come in contact with and try to make people smile. That's a good start, what else?"

that's how I came out of it.. But it does make you wonder how many sleepers are sleeping on purpose as you said. I think it's a minority compared to a majority of people who bought the lie, government is supposed to fix everything if only it were not corrupt.. But the people don't realize they are also corrupt they just don't have as much power.. That's the kicker most people are corrupt in their own ways...

It's not a top down problem, though that can be working much better than it is, it's not the ending solution.. The solution is parents and communities tribes groups, but of course then there's the "other" enemy tribe and we're back to square one.


There is always that one guy who misses the trash can and it's at a football stadium so he doens't care and walks off.. Little does he know that the people behins him will see trash on the ground and go "oh look a pile" It's all down hill from there, except it's not, if those people behind me see me pick up the trash around the can and put it where it goes.

THe world as it is now is people going well there's trash on the ground, I can't possibly pick up all that trash so I'll throw mine down too, no one else seems to care, why should I? You should care cause you just lost part of your soul, becoming corrupted like the rest..

If only they knew the analogy of the soul whether real or not has real consequences on your own psyche.. Your subconscious knows you missed the trash and walked off. Now you are that guy, not even good enough to maintain an area, so you lower your expectations of yourself.. F it.. But no you think you got away with something but you didn't.. it's still in there, better to just pick it up, and put it in the trash and smile at the kid 20 yards in front of you who was watching the entire time.. Ahh feels much lighter and happier, more energy.. mmmmmm...

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Now you can say it aint our fault if we never heard it
But if we know better than we probably deserve it
Jihad is not a holy war, wheres that in the worship?
Murdering is not Islam!
And you are not observant
And you are not a muslim
Israel don't take my side cause look how far you've pushed them
Walk with me into the ghetto, this where all the Kush went
Complain about the liquor store but what you drinking liquor for?
Complain about the gloom but when'd you pick a broom up?
Just listening to Pac aint gone make it stop
A rebel in your thoughts, aint gon make it halt
If you don't become an actor you'll never be a factor

Words I Never Said

a reply to: BigBrotherDarkness


Thanks. uhh...I'll take your sisters' less than fortunate money troubles to heart, as I must learn to be penny wise, myself.
Material possessions don't mean hardly anything to me. I don't know how much stability costs but id be willing to pay everything ive ever made to have it.

I get the trash metaphor. I have a problem in my personal life and I am taking proactive measures to remedy said problem. I'm not just complaining about something without getting up and doing something about it.

As far as dealing with the "pile of trash", and leaving the world better than I found it, you'd be surpised at how few people care about nutrition that I try to teach them about.

a reply to: Reverbs

Well, that old saying "Not on my watch" is actually being true for the Boomers and older... Generation X, Y and Me sounds funny typed out like that otherwise it would be eXamine Your Zipper there's too many god damned kids these days running all willy nilly zip em up and practice some restraint. I guess that sounds like a joke But the population in 1980 was about 4ish billion and it's about to crest into 8 billion so something has to give... and well it isn't that old close the borders and hoard resources mentality that is going to save it... that's just old person paranoia that they'll be hooked up in some hospice rhetoric'd into belief that their care givers are going to banging their drugs in the storeroom as they writhe about in pain.

But yeah things are going to get better and this US election is proof of it... they shammed themselves so hard into a corner from rigging the game the entire world is kinda laughing about it. It won't continue; the numbers just aren't there... it used to be a guaranteed the evangelicals always decided the Republican vote and despite pandering that base... hell even with Trump and Hillary pandering every base at both extremes the jig is up.

Gen X is the most politically aware generation yet... we've seen what the empty brained correlation pander without real cause and effect has caused not only in society but around the world in response to such things.

In such a manner all the 60's people that were visionaries then are like alright you newer sons o bitches know what's up while all of ours sold the hell out because Nixon strong armed everyone back into some 1950's keep it in the closet nothing to see here poppa government has you safe and sound lil buddy.

Nonsense, it's that line of thinking that makes all the problems and the reason why the older generation called silent(phrase more ironic than any hipster could dream of being) is freaking out and so scared and buying the pander to fight wars of terror(war is terror) and thinking all the kids are huffing peyote out of milk cartons.

As much as many people will miss their parents, they will not be missing the politics that made them roll over for belly scratches that stopped after the trick roll over was ingrained belly scratches still expected each time.

Generation X is just like the people in the 1920's and 30's they can't be BS'ed they know it when they see it and hear it and smell it... they know what crap caused all of those problems growing up with those problems and how to handle them, generation Y seems to be a bit more silent than the ME's because the Y's still had a chance to grab jobs and opportunity... looking at the ME's what's there? Even if they do graduate college most business and corporations are still stuck in that 1980's corporate raider highlander there can be only one syndrome and we all know monopolies do not work are wasteful and ruin economies...

We've been made bottom bitch to a system that no one is going to roll over for... and it's worldwide; because all the citizens know that it isn't we the people that keep this insane crap going, it's those failed systems that do and well... they will go away and that's part of what you were saying... being the change you want to see. That's how one expresses it in individual responsibility in responsibility to more than just oneself... I pick up trash I see as well to dispose of it while walking along, I don't think of who dropped it there nor how inconsiderate they may have been that's past tense what's done is done milk already spilled.

Action caused the problem(s) and only action solves the problem(s) talk is just that; rhetoric only picks teams when it takes all of us every day regardless of any belief or ideas of social standing.

Just this post alone; required you to reply to my post, all the previous posters up to this point, Baddogma for making the OP topic, all the members since the site started, All the Mods, all the Ads and servers, all the people that made wifi and the internet, the coders the service people laying the lines above and below ground and on and on that's how we are all interconnected and dependent on each other whether anyone likes it or not but is also how we can remain in respect of each other in equality knowing it takes every single last one of us to make it work no one above or below...

So making the best of it is that personal choice that free will and fixing the stuff that tries to make it worse than it really needs to be out of protectionism guised as conservatism... protectionism serves systems that work for that system itself exclusivity instead of inclusivity it separates divides and conquers to maintain control out of greed fans flames of hate so an enemy ceases to have a face a life something to be cherished as one's own... to fight wars no one is asking for.

True Conservatism means conservation not hoarding... it means making the absolute most out of what we have mental and physical to make enough for everyone because there is enough more than enough and systems and science to keep going growing and progressing far into the future... but the old system and the way it breeds the feeling of scarcity and pushes fiction as fact for simple rhetoric to breed fear that divides? Not going to work it already isn't working and has been in it's death throes for awhile now.

The future is bright there has never been a better time in human history as it marches on and it will keep getting better all fear mongering trying to spread ignorance aside wisdom having been there 2.5 generations deep and one saying where's any opportunity left at all are the one's going to be building it from the wreckage of all this past nonsense... and that's just the way it is.

Drawing a line or label in the dirt automatically makes an enemy on the other side of it. In reason logic and rationality those lines drawn do not help society grow in the secular public... and the nonsecular behind closed doors is going away too; where child abuse can't be hidden in the closet and that dysfunction can still get a pass... because so many generations have already reached adulthood knowing that what has already occurred isn't the way forward... nearly 60 years later repeating the exact same thing yet again because those systems didn't work then and they won't work again, it only grew the discontent even further seeing that those systems were and are a failure but the people aren't by far even if those systems said they were... and this is what many are awake too.

Equality does say fag, whore, addict, bible thumper and all that nonsense... it says that stuff can be placed in a system that works in an ethical society... not one sweeping crap under rugs or forcing people into closets because they don't agree with it or some "image" it may represent and it's not what "they" want to represent. Well customers are everyone and if not then what a strange custom... even if someone calls it niche it still alienates a lot of business not only locally or nationally but globally.

Separation of church and state sort of failed and people see that in state by state discrimination; I won't be surprised if separation of business and politics soon follows... it was that way in many respects until the previous failed to be upheld.

Lol sorry for the massive post it kinda got away from me there...

a reply to: Mousygretchen

Eh, want and need are easy to figure out... like what stuff you have or use and how often, and what works and what doesn't... what makes you feel happy comfortable and content... and then clearing out everything extraneous.

Pantene that's my shampoo/conditioner... inexpensive smells great and my hair feels awesome for days. The nice thing though is... once you simplify it down like the above? You actually live better and treat yourself better getting rid of all the excess that you worry over but don't even need.

People often assume I am very rich, it's because I buy quality things that last that make me feel good and most importantly do the job they are intended to do. I keep bills to a bare minimum, LED lighting is awesome you can make an entire place look like every socket is beaming 100 watt bulbs and it only takes 4 watts per light... knowing I don't talk on the phone much and choosing the unlimited data with a small talk plan saves me 30 bucks which is a nice lil meal out or or a very nice meal or two in... using netflix and xbox360 apps instead of cable so it's only internet(don't really watch TV anyway). Buying clothes and shoes that never go out of style.

It's little things like that... that really start adding up to quality and living well, before I started my RV project I was spending over 500 dollars a month going out to eat, seeing shows and having some drinks just being social... nearly all the big stuff aside from exterior paint and this stupid tablet/gps/dvd/cd/rear view mirror player thing I want to put in the dash has been purchased already... it's just taking time going slow and getting it how I want since I'm twiddling my thumbs as the vultures circle.

I think that's the biggest myth out there going that more more more is better when it doesn't mean a better quality of life or anything to be perfectly honest just more junk to worry about that really does nothing for your happiness. Especially when it comes to money ffs who's a real friend or someone you can trust in that situation? I'm not really alone by choice but I am and that's ok... I've learned that real friends can be just as fake as fake ones when it comes down to it. A mind can't hide the heart as words always give them away

a reply to: BigBrotherDarkness

A video I saw recently sort of touches on some of the things you've said, albeit through the microcosmic lens of the food industry:

a reply to: Michet

Welcome to the cafe...

Yeah micro and macro economics everyone has some passion some gifts that they arrive here with and well the way society is set up it is geared to learn everything but making use of those things with the excuse of "well rounded" no one says hey you know that cookie you loved baking with grandmas recipe can actually earn you a living? All the ingredients in it and all the things required to bake it like the oven etc earn people livings as well.

The trap is all of the distractions confusing people and giving them doubts as to those passions and natural talents then of course we pick up other things along the way and it can be too many hobbies or things of interest and become unable to focus on anything in particular... kinda like when too many emotions appear at once and become some undifferentiated blob of numbness.

All it takes is a little encouragement so others can do what makes them happy. Of course there's this idea that unless you make it to the top earning millions of dollars on some show or famous for whatever it is you're a failure at life and that's a big slap in the face because it isn't true at all, it becomes a gauge that seems attainable but less so the more one ages and then depression... well even those that have "made" it suffer the same because their passion got bought and sold out for a vision not their own and it feels soulless and empty and happiness goes poof right along with it because then you're typecaste or stereotyped into some role you weren't expecting.

The same thing occurs when living to what society or family expects of you and next thing you know you have children and are just doing whatever to make ends meet but hey it's ok millions in the same boat but the sad thing is the children suffer because mom and dad or either or aren't living what they wanted to live and well not making the best out of a choice you personally made and giving it your all despite it not being what might have been expected is failing at life but since you have responsibility it fails more than just one self at that point. It can be better and it can turn into an unexpected blessing if you embrace it and then work as a team to see that the children can reach their passions and live well instead of mourning a life you could have or feel you should have had instead.

The weird thing is that is a trope and very common all throughout societies of the world and it brings much discontent, when content can be found in such simple things that due to all the flooding of information people seem to forget, like being little and staring at an anthill for hours an entire world of possibility until *pop* here's something to cope with then it's burden after burden and the world grows smaller and smaller more rigid less free and stifling... being able to embrace those passions those small things of content can occur again revive and renew happiness and it takes just as much work and strength to get back to that as it did in all the removing it to begin with.

So hey whatever it is make the best of it because it is what you have already and well life and the structures that gets built out of that can be awe inspiring and if not one can set out to make awe inspiring in spite of all that working to remove it just to bring some order and stability that appears as chaos... those are the same forces that have been around since civilization started not much different than natural forces but become group forces and unfortunately humanity has so many divisions or lines drawn against itself we get stuck in this big web of confusion feeling trapped when working for humanity and life itself is what actually frees... sure I'm stuck but the spider needs to eat, then you wake up and hey that self sacrifice returns the favor.

Ego says no mine mine mine and that mentality is what truly makes one feel alone and the more it feels alone the more it grasps and clings in sometimes not such a quiet desperation stuck by the very concepts of reality instead of reality itself.

Here I am being a hog at the cafe trough sorry everyone.

a reply to: BigBrotherDarkness


Well, as far as dealing with money I make SSi, and I am more than happy to contribute all of it, but money is not really my problem right now. My conditioner is Restoring conditioner from Shea Moisture, its 10 bucks, an its 100% plant extracts. once my hair gets a little longer I want to cut it short in the back and long in the front. I'm all about natural hygiene products.

a reply to: Mousygretchen

I'm familiar with how all of the social security disability business goes, and yeah it can go quick without much ability to reinvest back into oneself doing something you love or enjoy with your time... but at the same time it does teach needs vs. wants and being happy in simpler things than a bunch of extravagance that turns into a look at me... instead of real feelings of confidence and self security that you can be independent if the need arises and if not then just feel trapped and stifled not really encouraged to grow I've been bird caged as it's called a few times but it becomes a life of someone else's expectation nevermind what you may be expecting of yourself which can lead to abuse and all sorts of nonsense.

Sounds nice, hopefully nothing stops you it's your hair after all; shea or salt is a really good cleaner as well as a gentle exfoliant allowing pores to breathe and not get clogged.

I've thought about trying my hand as a perfumer, so many hobbies and interests that quite a bit has to take a backseat to get anything accomplished and alone doesn't really encourage me in moving forward like having very good chef skills but making a big production for oneself with no one to share it with turns into why bother? So I've been getting more and more disorganized trying to get organized to where it's I'll just turn off the lights and go to sleep and eventually wake up to some change that gets things motivationally moving and I can have a life again...

I'm productive though, aside from writing volumes here on ATS I wrote a screen play that I will be animating into a feature film doing the sound track and voices for, currently writing a novel, create a few pieces of art a month, I have my business that is launched but not quite just one side to build capital for the other side and i don't feel like social media whoring it out in constant advertizing as it's like hey all you people aren't really my friend but potential customers... that just kinda feels dirty for some reason perhaps like ulterior motives instead of integrity I guess, and I'm thinking about getting a bass guitar I miss playing and bag pipes when I should be trying to learn this damn violin that I bought.

Hmm all natural products; there's an extremely huge untapped market where I live for such things, aside from perfumer I've thought about soap making etc. it's really fun stuff, I'm all about the DIY artisan lifestyle where every aspect of life is made into an artform something of enjoyment instead of drudgery although I easily sit around for hours listening to the clock on the wall tick by and not think it at all boring, but that arose from years of constant meditation practice.

Too much to accomplish and I'm just one person... so in other words I've been up 36 hours working on various things and nothing seems as if it even got done; so screw it I'm just going to sleep.

Good night everyone.

originally posted by: BigBrotherDarkness
a reply to: Mousygretchen

...

... and I'm thinking about getting a bass guitar I miss playing and bag pipes when I should be trying to learn this damn violin that I bought.

...
Good night everyone.

I know somebody who knows some New Model Army songs. Plenty of bass playing and violins in there! And heck, his singing voice is good enough to cover that part too. I saw him once on open mic night play The Ballad of Bodmin Pill after he found out about Robert Heaton passing. He was all emotional and stuff. Nobody knew the song which was perfect.



I think he also knows It's A Long Way To The Top (If You Want To Rock And Roll) or at the very least, easily figure it out.

D@mn you have been productive! I have kind of thought about learning Pro Tools (I've got LE) but have been slacking in that department. I will probably, since winter is here, start up because it is a good indoor activity. So fair warning Cafeterians!

Good night sweet prince!



PS - No further woo other than the strange light thing. My mouse is still jumping to the corners (if I am moving towards a corner it tends to just jump to it) and now it is refusing to be pushed towards the close window icon! And the big snow storm was kind of a bust with only 100 or so accidents due to a school in-service day (less cars on the road).

As always: an official invitation for my council of wise woo-ists.

Please share your opinion, insights and wisdom.
Or rip it apart if you must.
Be my guests.

Disclaimer: contains superwoo! Might be infectious. Handle with care.
Just kidding.

a reply to: TEOTWAWKIAIFF

It's been awhile since I heard them coincidentally, I have that celtic knot tattoo on my forearm...

Well, hey since time passes instead of dwelling in the creation of others as that's a given can't really escape that... I'm one of those weirdos that enjoy using my time to create instead of trying to enjoy the creation of others with my time as that's just a given as well... that's what productivity is to me creating things for others enjoyment and well trying to find the time to do that when others creations start getting in the way... sometimes the others creations are thoughtforms or wishful thinking that whether certain people know it or not becomes an agenda toxic to what you want to accomplish, and hence we seek out the "like minded" and make cafe's :p