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19.6 Trillion Dollars in Tax Increases...Can you feel the "Bern" now?

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posted on Jan, 19 2016 @ 03:31 PM
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Constantly amazed but thankful how threads like this bring out the armchair "Socialists" and Bernie supporters, so that everyone can see the lack of LOGIC that goes on, and an overall sense that things are just FREE and we're all going to share in rainbows and candy.

I especially loved the part where a poster stated that I, as an American citizen, should gladly pay for the EDUCATIOn and HEALTHCARE, of an Illegal Immigrant AKA Foreign National...

And these people think their ideologies would HELP the U.S. out of it's current State?

Huh????




posted on Jan, 19 2016 @ 03:38 PM
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originally posted by: BatheInTheFountain
Constantly amazed but thankful how threads like this bring out the armchair "Socialists" and Bernie supporters, so that everyone can see the lack of LOGIC that goes on, and an overall sense that things are just FREE and we're all going to share in rainbows and candy.

I especially loved the part where a poster stated that I, as an American citizen, should gladly pay for the EDUCATIOn and HEALTHCARE, of an Illegal Immigrant AKA Foreign National...

And these people think their ideologies would HELP the U.S. out of it's current State?

Huh????


Huh???

I love when the idealistic free market supporters believe the free market is nothing more than a myth at this point. Hey I lean libertarian myself but I am not dumb enough to think our markets are free or that the aristocracy doesn't control politics.

But sure go believing we live in 1801.

Not to mention the fact there are less jobs every year and it will continue as capitalism consolidates wealth and efficiency. They are not coming back.

Or that we aren't ranked 37 in health care on the earth.

Nothing is free. Especially the market which is controlled by the fed, lawmakers, and the business men that own the politicians.

Not saying we didn't have great ideas 300 years ago but they are a shell of them now and you can thank Republican Richard Nixon for putting the last nail in the market coffin.



posted on Jan, 19 2016 @ 03:42 PM
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originally posted by: luthier
Sorry to say but the best health care rankings are socialized medicine by far.

Ranked based on what?

US-based medical and pharmaceutical companies have led the way in life-saving research for decades. The world's super-rich have flocked to the US for healthcare for decades.

If the goal is acheiving the highest level of available medical care, capitalism must play a role. If the goal is to say you've 'covered' more people, then socialized medicine works...though you're never going to get the level of coverage and medical care you can get in a capitalist system.



posted on Jan, 19 2016 @ 03:43 PM
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originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: BatheInTheFountain
Constantly amazed but thankful how threads like this bring out the armchair "Socialists" and Bernie supporters, so that everyone can see the lack of LOGIC that goes on, and an overall sense that things are just FREE and we're all going to share in rainbows and candy.

I especially loved the part where a poster stated that I, as an American citizen, should gladly pay for the EDUCATIOn and HEALTHCARE, of an Illegal Immigrant AKA Foreign National...

And these people think their ideologies would HELP the U.S. out of it's current State?

Huh????


Huh???

I love when the idealistic free market supporters believe the free market is nothing more than a myth at this point. Hey I lean libertarian myself but I am not dumb enough to think our markets are free or that the aristocracy doesn't control politics.

But sure go believing we live in 1801.

Not to mention the fact there are less jobs every year and it will continue as capitalism consolidates wealth and efficiency. They are not coming back.

Or that we aren't ranked 37 in health care on the earth.

Nothing is free. Especially the market which is controlled by the fed, lawmakers, and the business men that own the politicians.

Not saying we didn't have great ideas 300 years ago but they are a shell of them now and you can thank Republican Richard Nixon for putting the last nail in the market coffin.


Awesome, so you say the "Free Market" doesn't work...omit the data and facts that show definitively that GOVERNMENT is in collusion with business (CORPORATISM) and that Government itself is a hinderance....and then MENTION facts which counter you own POSTS..

AWESOME...and all of that with the omission of the fact that a lot of jobs have LEFT because of Government intervention, or that jobs can't LAST because of Government intervention or collusion with Mega Corporations,

Wow,...I wonder WHY true Capitalism and Freer Markets are dying?

Oh that's right...I think it's the 1800s!!!


edit on 19-1-2016 by BatheInTheFountain because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 19 2016 @ 03:51 PM
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What's ALSO hindering our country is that we have an entire generation which is geared around social media..and online forums.

I know this is going to piss some people off, but I am fitting in posts between doing shipping orders for my business. The time I spend here is IN FACT costing me money, but this thread has me involved.

I'm wondering why so many ATS users get to post all day. Retired, out of work, laid off...what the hell?

I mean, where is the WORK? Can America survive with young people on Twitter and Facebook all day and millions of sites like ATS being typed away at in the millions?

Not to insult anyone, but Jesus Christ, is THIS the state of the nation, or the world at large?

Have we just become an "Idiocracy"? Is this why there is no innovation anymore? Have we just all become addicts and bums?

I wonder, seriously.



posted on Jan, 19 2016 @ 03:58 PM
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originally posted by: OpenMindedRealist

originally posted by: luthier
Sorry to say but the best health care rankings are socialized medicine by far.

Ranked based on what?

US-based medical and pharmaceutical companies have led the way in life-saving research for decades. The world's super-rich have flocked to the US for healthcare for decades.

If the goal is acheiving the highest level of available medical care, capitalism must play a role. If the goal is to say you've 'covered' more people, then socialized medicine works...though you're never going to get the level of coverage and medical care you can get in a capitalist system.


Switzerland and the Netherlands do just fine with medical and pharmaceutical research. We are definitely a leader but that's changing. I wish we could have a free market but the end result of capitalism will be wealth consolidation and the return of the aristocracy. Unless we get into space and have a whole new industry that requires actual human beings to do the work we need to accept robotics, automation, AI etc are going to take a lot of jobs.

I would also venture to say capitalism has created epidemics like the herion problem in the US and the need for life saving drugs since we have valued profit over health. We have some of if not the world's most unhealthy people.

Again I could go either way I just don't see the elite wanting a free market. The amount of cooperate wellfare and market intervention has made us neither a free market or socialist.



posted on Jan, 19 2016 @ 04:02 PM
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originally posted by: BatheInTheFountain

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: BatheInTheFountain
Constantly amazed but thankful how threads like this bring out the armchair "Socialists" and Bernie supporters, so that everyone can see the lack of LOGIC that goes on, and an overall sense that things are just FREE and we're all going to share in rainbows and candy.

I especially loved the part where a poster stated that I, as an American citizen, should gladly pay for the EDUCATIOn and HEALTHCARE, of an Illegal Immigrant AKA Foreign National...

And these people think their ideologies would HELP the U.S. out of it's current State?

Huh????


Huh???

I love when the idealistic free market supporters believe the free market is nothing more than a myth at this point. Hey I lean libertarian myself but I am not dumb enough to think our markets are free or that the aristocracy doesn't control politics.

But sure go believing we live in 1801.

Not to mention the fact there are less jobs every year and it will continue as capitalism consolidates wealth and efficiency. They are not coming back.

Or that we aren't ranked 37 in health care on the earth.

Nothing is free. Especially the market which is controlled by the fed, lawmakers, and the business men that own the politicians.

Not saying we didn't have great ideas 300 years ago but they are a shell of them now and you can thank Republican Richard Nixon for putting the last nail in the market coffin.


Awesome, so you say the "Free Market" doesn't work...omit the data and facts that show definitively that GOVERNMENT is in collusion with business (CORPORATISM) and that Government itself is a hinderance....and then MENTION facts which counter you own POSTS..

AWESOME...and all of that with the omission of the fact that a lot of jobs have LEFT because of Government intervention, or that jobs can't LAST because of Government intervention or collusion with Mega Corporations,

Wow,...I wonder WHY true Capitalism and Freer Markets are dying?

Oh that's right...I think it's the 1800s!!!



Did I say the free market doesn't work? Nope.

I said it doesn't exist today. Keynesian economics ruined it. In fact I prefer a free market. I just don't think it's coming back. Rand Paul the only free market candidate has very poor support. The amount of cooperate wellfare and economic intervention has ruined the free market.

Oh and I can post all day because I work at night (and raise my kids during the day) and own my own business.



posted on Jan, 19 2016 @ 04:03 PM
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a reply to: BatheInTheFountain


ANSWER MY QUESTIONS and debate ME...if I'm so 'stupid"....I've given you guys multiple chances...but you won't.


I'm your huckleberry.


The U.S Needs MASSIVE de-rugulation in many sectors, massive tax cuts, massive job growth, massive Immigration overhaul, BASELINE auditing of Federal Agencies, and to maintain a HIGHER interest rate in the middle somewhere.

We cannot do a Socialist approach now. We need a Free Market Nuclear BOMB or else we're screwed for decades more


Deregulation?

Exactly what deregulation are you proposing? "Massive" doesn't really mean anything in of itself. Typically when the "the free market will save us" crowd starts talking about deregulation what they're usually saying is they want to do away with the EPA/environmental protections, OSHA/labor laws, the FDA (the drug companies can streamline the process! woo-f'ing-hoo!), etc etc. Generally speaking, the idea seems to be that to compete against the 3rd world, we must become the 3rd world.

Massive tax cuts?

Cuts where, what do you expect to accomplish with the cuts and what is your basis for believing the cuts will have the desired effect?

Massive job growth

Gee. Everyone wants massive job growth. Not really a policy position is it? What sectors do you see this "massive" uptick in employment occurring in? I'm really interested in this in particular because booming job growth of course means more tax payers, less people on social welfare rolls, etc.

Massive Immigration overhaul

What do you propose? The bit about education is at best an exaggeration. State and local taxes account for about 93% of funding for K-12 education. At the state level from sales and income taxes and at the local level (the largest chunk), property taxes. Illegal immigrants live places and they purchase goods and services so they're paying sales taxes and they're also paying rent to a landlord who is paying property taxes. As for the burden on the healthcare system, that's hard to argue in that the cost of any uninsured person receiving healthcare is ultimately passed along to everyone else. You've got people who use the ER in lieu of a GP and worse, people who because they don't have insurance, will forego treatment for ailments that could be treated for far less in the earlier stages but end up in an ER in far worse (and more expensive to treat) condition. Uninsured people are obviously a concern but it's not strictly uninsured illegal immigrants.

You've expressed a desire to go behind the talking points (which you've dutifully listed), let's do it.



posted on Jan, 19 2016 @ 04:03 PM
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a reply to: matafuchs



Man, you just do not stop do you?


No, I don't.



how they were correct and were never proven incorrect.


They were proven incorrect many times over. Delusions do not make something correct or true.



Please explain how this plan would work well in the current state of the union?


It wouldn't because the current state of the union is designed to protect big-money and corporate interests. A plan like this threatens that.
edit on 19-1-2016 by introvert because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 19 2016 @ 04:04 PM
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a reply to: peter_kandra

the closest I've seen to a list wasn't much of one at all. It included things like "get rid of administrative bloat." HAhahahah. Har dot say what that even means, but it seems a plan like his would exponentially increase administrative bloat.



posted on Jan, 19 2016 @ 04:06 PM
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a reply to: matafuchs

Yep!

Canada makes sense, too.



posted on Jan, 19 2016 @ 04:06 PM
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a reply to: BatheInTheFountain

Who do you think you are to lecture anyone else on "logic"?

I used your own logic and definitions to show that you lack the understanding of basic concepts and facts.

I'm constantly amazed at how armchair know-it-alls are so arrogant in their beliefs that they would criticize others after not being able to properly debate their own assertions.



posted on Jan, 19 2016 @ 04:07 PM
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a reply to: OpenMindedRealist


US-based medical and pharmaceutical companies have led the way in life-saving research for decades. The world's super-rich have flocked to the US for healthcare for decades.


So we hear constantly. What's that got to do with the average American? You can bet no super-wealthy anybody is coming to see my GP or having a procedure done in my local hospital. There are certainly some of the finest doctors in the world in the US but the ability to cater to the super-wealthy medical tourists isn't exactly saying much about the care most Americans receive, is it?



posted on Jan, 19 2016 @ 04:08 PM
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originally posted by: BatheInTheFountain
What's ALSO hindering our country is that we have an entire generation which is geared around social media..and online forums.

I know this is going to piss some people off, but I am fitting in posts between doing shipping orders for my business. The time I spend here is IN FACT costing me money, but this thread has me involved.

I'm wondering why so many ATS users get to post all day. Retired, out of work, laid off...what the hell?

I mean, where is the WORK? Can America survive with young people on Twitter and Facebook all day and millions of sites like ATS being typed away at in the millions?

Not to insult anyone, but Jesus Christ, is THIS the state of the nation, or the world at large?

Have we just become an "Idiocracy"? Is this why there is no innovation anymore? Have we just all become addicts and bums?

I wonder, seriously.


Good question though where is the work? It's been brought overseas because that is the way capitalism works. Next it will be complete automation. People are going to need subsistance skills because jobs are most likely a thing of the past in terms of just punching the clock. I got out priced when we allowed illegal immigrants to work construction so I am a sound engineer and guitar maker now.

I can't even buy the wood for my guitars for the price of 75 percent of factory made guitars. Luckily I have a nitch but not everybody can.



posted on Jan, 19 2016 @ 04:19 PM
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a reply to: BatheInTheFountain

I can post during the day because my husband makes enough money for our family that I don't have to work.

Oh and he delegates the shipping orders to someone who is at a much lower level than he is.



posted on Jan, 19 2016 @ 04:22 PM
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a reply to: BatheInTheFountain

Stuck in part-time hell and a mother. I could search harder for full-time work, but at the moment, he is only in half day school. Next year when he goes full days will be the time to hit the job listings harder again.

Husband is the full-time workhorse. I wish he made enough that didn't have to worry about it.

edit on 19-1-2016 by ketsuko because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 19 2016 @ 04:25 PM
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a reply to: BatheInTheFountain


Awesome, so you say the "Free Market" doesn't work...omit the data and facts that show definitively that GOVERNMENT is in collusion with business (CORPORATISM) and that Government itself is a hinderance....and then MENTION facts which counter you own POSTS..

AWESOME...and all of that with the omission of the fact that a lot of jobs have LEFT because of Government intervention, or that jobs can't LAST because of Government intervention or collusion with Mega Corporations,

Wow,...I wonder WHY true Capitalism and Freer Markets are dying?

Oh that's right...I think it's the 1800s!!!


The markets were considerably "freer" in the 19th century and what was the result of that? Robber barons and cartels who took collusion to the point of formalizing it in trusts. Exploited workers in deplorable conditions working 70-80 hour work weeks, child labor, environmental travesties, anti-labor violence up to and including straight up execution (by corporate thugs, police, state militias and federal troops).

Oh the good ole days!



posted on Jan, 19 2016 @ 04:32 PM
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originally posted by: Brotherman
a reply to: eXia7

10 an hour to start at mickey Ds no experience

13 an hour to weld at a big company with 5 years experience

You don't see a problem with this?


I do. Mickey D's pays too much, more than the job is worth.



posted on Jan, 19 2016 @ 04:36 PM
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originally posted by: theantediluvian
a reply to: BatheInTheFountain


Awesome, so you say the "Free Market" doesn't work...omit the data and facts that show definitively that GOVERNMENT is in collusion with business (CORPORATISM) and that Government itself is a hinderance....and then MENTION facts which counter you own POSTS..

AWESOME...and all of that with the omission of the fact that a lot of jobs have LEFT because of Government intervention, or that jobs can't LAST because of Government intervention or collusion with Mega Corporations,

Wow,...I wonder WHY true Capitalism and Freer Markets are dying?

Oh that's right...I think it's the 1800s!!!


The markets were considerably "freer" in the 19th century and what was the result of that? Robber barons and cartels who took collusion to the point of formalizing it in trusts. Exploited workers in deplorable conditions working 70-80 hour work weeks, child labor, environmental travesties, anti-labor violence up to and including straight up execution (by corporate thugs, police, state militias and federal troops).

Oh the good ole days!


I'm not the one that touted the "!800s" analogy....DUNCE

I was quoting another poster and using this thing called 'sarcasm'..

And side note, did you mention farmers, store owners, barbers, ranchers, etc.etc.etc. that DID live in the 1800s and PROSPERED through without 'collusion and robber barrons'?

Or lemme guess, it's all Wild Bill shootem ups and Cowboys all over?

P.S....for the second time, so you GET IT, I didn't make the 1800s analogy, I was responding sarcastically do someone who DID.

Read next time before frothing at the mouth



posted on Jan, 19 2016 @ 04:41 PM
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a reply to: matafuchs

It is on his website. All of it.

Kindly post the url and extext the part where it says that.
Thanks.

As far as illegals who are already here, yes, they need to go.

That's a whole lot of cooking, cleaning, yard work, roofing, and child care that you all will have to do for yourselves.


Sorry. There are veterans, elderly and children in the US that need to be taken care of.

You are absolutely right, there are!!!!!!
I have no argument at all against that.


I am sorry if you are born into poverty

uh.....I wasn't.

I was born into the educated middle-class. My father was an engineer, who started up his own company after years working for LearJet. His company was a big employer for our town. We weren't poor. Thanks for the empathy, though.


but what type of message does it send to people.

What "message" is it you think I am sending (let alone what 'type' of message)?



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