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Would you support social engineering aimed at reforming Islam?

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posted on Jan, 18 2016 @ 02:29 AM
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I have been saying that Islam needs a reformation all my life. But that does not mean that I do not have the same opinion on dualist teachings creating us vs them reasoning from Judaism and Paul:s teaching also.

Do not matter if it calls itself nazism, zionism, Islamism, crusaders or caste system in hinduism. If it does not follow the universal golden rule then it has no right to exist in flawed form and should be reformed or rejected.
edit on 18-1-2016 by LittleByLittle because: (no reason given)




posted on Jan, 18 2016 @ 02:37 AM
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originally posted by: pavil
a reply to: enlightenedservant

I think the main changes that needs to occur are these two: Modern Islam needs to respect Women more, they are treated more often than not as chattel of Men. When that occurs, it will be a turning point.

Second, Modern Islam need to be tolerant. Yes, simply tolerant of others who aren't Muslim or are "different". It would go a long way towards joining the rest of the world in that respect.
Let others simply be who they are without being threatened. I know Islam doesn't seem to like transgressions against the faith but guess what? They happen all the time. If Islam can't learn to be tolerant, then don't be surprised when the rest of the globe simply has enough of their behavior.

You're making too many assumptions though. First, women are protected by the Qur'an, not oppressed by it. In fact, when compared to the Bible, the Qur'an gives far more rights to women. The Qur'an even guarantees women the rights to divorce & to receive inheritances (and an ex-husband has to keep taking care of her until she remarries, which is essentially alimony). Women will be judged on Judgment Day, just as men will be. And they still face the same requirements as men, such as praying, going on Hajj, charity, belief, not lying or stealing, and even fasting during Ramadan (though women can't fast during menstruation, which makes sense from a health perspective).

What you're talking about is misogyny, which can happen in any culture. Female genital mutilation isn't in the Qur'an (neither is circumcision, for that matter). And "honor killings" is against the Qur'an, which states that anyone who intentionally kills a believer will go to Hell. Also, American women were just guaranteed the gained the right to vote with the 19th Amendment in 1920. In comparison, the 3 most highly populous Muslim countries have already had female Heads of State (Indonesia, Pakistan, and Bangladesh). To further emphasize the point, my mom's also a Muslim. And she's a homeowner, is a retired teacher, is a voter, is highly educated, and taught me how to drive. She fits none of the stereotypes about Islam and yet her situation isn't even rare.

As far as the tolerance part, I think you're forgetting something. There are more than 1.6 BILLION of us. If we were really intolerant as people fearmonger about, why didn't even a tenth of us react to the drawings of the Prophet Muhammad through intolerance attacks? That would've been 160 MILLION attacks. I'm sure the entire world would've felt it if that were true. Instead, a Muslim was assigned to guard the Charlie Hebdo office & he was the first one killed in the attack there.

There are people all over the world who get angry for different reasons. Saying that Islam needs to "reform" because of the anger of a Muslim that commits a crime is no different than me saying Christianity needs to "reform" since so many self-described Christians in America get angry and commit crimes. Christians would probably say the criminal or violent person isn't representing Christianity when they do those things, which I agree with. But do they give the same courtesy to Islam when a self-described Muslim commits a crime or does something violent? Are mental illness, workplace violence, stress, or any of those other excuses accepted to justify that behavior?



posted on Jan, 18 2016 @ 02:44 AM
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... im Muslim, and no one listened

You belong to this faith, which is fine, but then say;

Islam is very and more tolerant than christianity

Followed by...

Islam is superior to Christianity in every way.


LOL Now I know why you and I seem to have had so many arguments.

dou·ble·think
ˈdəbəlˌTHiNGk/
noun: doublethink; noun: double-think
the acceptance of or mental capacity to accept contrary opinions or beliefs at the same time, especially as a result of political indoctrination.



posted on Jan, 18 2016 @ 03:02 AM
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originally posted by: enlightenedservant
You're making too many assumptions though. First, women are protected by the Qur'an, not oppressed by it. In fact, when compared to the Bible, the Qur'an gives far more rights to women. The Qur'an even guarantees women the rights to divorce & to receive inheritances (and an ex-husband has to keep taking care of her until she remarries, which is essentially alimony).


To be fair Christ taught that no one; male or female is allowed to divorce with the exception of adultery. AND if a man divorces his wife for any other reason HE causes her to become an adulteress.
Matthew: 5:31-32
31 "It was also said, 'Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.'
32 But I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except on the ground of sexual immorality, makes her commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

Now remember; Mark 10:11-12
11And He said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her;
12 and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery."

Notice something? If you want to take the scripture in a very literal way then,
1.) A woman can divorce her husband for committing adultery, without committing adultery herself, unless she remarries.
2.) However, if a man divorces his wife for any reason other than Adultery, HE is guilty of making her an adulteress. That means he gets the blame for her sin.



posted on Jan, 18 2016 @ 03:23 AM
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If reforms are going to come they should be made from the inside. A lot of the problems with radical islam are down to a mix of 20th century western social engineering, interventionism and Arab politics.

It would be foolish for us to think that we can socially engineer them further without serious blowback.



posted on Jan, 18 2016 @ 03:24 AM
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I'm always reading how immigrants must intergrate into our culture, but in the same papers they are reporting the binge drinking activities of youngsters over the festive period. Black eye Friday. The last working day before Xmas, when it's seen as acceptable to end your night in the a&E department of the hospital after too much drinking and high jinx. Or maybe they should intergrate by joining in on our consumer society. Where the shopping complex has taken over the role of a church where people worship at the alter if the cash till. Or maybe they should book holidays to Spain and join in the activities of Brits abroad. With young girls wearing next to nothing on nights out. Do we want them to intergrate with these great parts of our culture, to become more like us and moderate. I can certainly see why some maybe reluctant to intergrate into many parts of British culture. I struggle to intergrate as I don't drink, which is a large part of our culture. I don't wave flags I don't agree with royalty or sing the national anthem, yet I'm still British and a moderate politically. Do I need to be socially engeneerd to be more British? Do I integrate enough



posted on Jan, 18 2016 @ 04:01 AM
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a reply to: woodwardjnr

Sad but true, that's the reality of what I see every weekend. I wouldn't and dont want to integrate into it either although I do think there are some positives to living here.



posted on Jan, 18 2016 @ 04:11 AM
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a reply to: MagnaCarta2015 ofcourse, there are many great things about being British, we have a rich history and great norms and values to aspire to. Some of them are not expecting others to be flag waving royalists and a live and let live attitude to most people a rich history and culture generally improved by immigration through the centuries. Standing up to bullies and ideologues in any form our stoicism our blitz spirit. Plucky little Brits fighting off the Bosch twice. Fighting off their nationalist ideologies which threatened European existence twice.



posted on Jan, 18 2016 @ 05:42 AM
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a reply to: woodwardjnr

They are free to denounce those things. In a democratic society thats a celebrated difficult choice to make.

By integration we all mean a common ground. Like the common ground that all our people are free to choose their path.

and for integration's sake, THEIR sake, lets lay off the negative lists, because as I am sure you are certain they can be made on both sides for any reason.

They could take on any of our values, challenge them and even not side with them, but they must revel in the fact that we are free to choose. THAT is our common ground and there is no room for compromise on our side there. They must celebrate like us our flaws and the fact that we CAN LEARN from them without fear of reprisals.

Is your list, one that I think has become formulaic and memorized drone language and as such empty of meaning to me now, is it the worst we do? Is there more? and does this somehow make our worth any less?

Does our story and our history, the sacrifices and loss we faced just to get where we are, all get made less because we like Cheese burgers and nice things? Of coarse not. Those who place too heavy a worth on what they have compared to others get upset at the disparity in western wealth distribution. If they UNDERSTOOD it they could secure similar wealth and security as those they look at with envy. They would not take issue except with themselves for wanting or not / getting or not.

The thing is I DONT WANT TO LIVE LIKE A KING. Most common people in the west dont. They want common things that WE VALUE to be more. I want a car and a house for my families sake. A vehicle, not a Lamborghini. A home not a mansion.

If my children want a mansion and a Lamborghini, they can WORK to get it and if they are SMART ENOUGH and understand the world they will find a way to those things.

If that makes us consumerists then what ever. It means to us that we are free to want or not, to get or not, and only we are responsible.

So yeah. Also, how on earth could you think those things represent our values? How can you not see they are just a thing we have to pass the time, like every age has something. That our values are reflected in the fact that WE COULD just dominate the middle east if we wanted to AND DONT. We could carry out mass genocide, take their land or keep them around and humiliate them. If thats what the west wanted, we could do that A THOUSAND TIMES OVER. But we dont. A bombing campaign by a powerful elite pulling strings to sell arms over a decade is NOTHING compared to conquest or the extermination of a people BY a people. You obviously were a terrible student of history.

The fact is people fantasize as much about their perceived enemies as they do about their own importance to the world. The west is full of HUMANS who like other humans want to live well and in peace. We all like nice things, you are not kidding anyone. Every supposed enemy of consumerism has adopted it and run with it once they see the benefits of buying and selling useful things that people really want. LOL

In any event just realize this: The argument you presented was not a unifying one or even realistic. It was a shot a western values you find pleasure in rebelling against. Maybe not. Either way your post did no service.

Islam as it is is NOT being accepted world wide. If you are fine with that then stick your head in the sand. If not GET READY FOR COMPROMISE. You are quite literally opposing an unstoppable force. Good luck with that. No one is going to be able to slip in nonsense into what is carried over into the future.

The world has seen the light and religion is just along for the ride. Its days of causing this much discord are numbered. Either adapt or whatever. Everyone does when they want to coexist.

Because if not you will find that even people like myself who APPRECIATE and like religion will be happy to see it go altogether. That would be a useless shame and a terrible loss./.....but if its the only way it WILL be done whether this generation likes it or not. We will be long dead and those dancing on our graves will do what ever the hell they want. Try and stay relevant. Thats all I am saying.

EDIT TO ADD:
Thats another thing integration could offer. Really reform to all religion could offer..... Pardon me, BUT, Some BALLS to be free and possibly defy God if the damned need be but in the end live as your heart tells you. (Which will probably make you a great neighbor no matter the community).

You really think God cares if I BUY things I want that I didnt steal to get it? You think God cares if I am a typical westerner? You think that would be anyone's business if I were? Even GODS? Do you think that every responsible western woman who went out as a youth and drank, smoked hash, danced and maybe learned how to have sex is a ruined or reformed whore? That they are somehow ruined people that dont do your taxes and police your streets or whatever? Go out and have a drink with one of them and find out. Some fun and sex appeal arent going to ruin the world. Religion is doing a fine job of that. Your daughters are not wasted youth because they like to have fun or because GASP!, they are westerners. Your sons are not lost causes because they want to be like everyone else around them. Its actually typical human social behavior that has kept our species relevant thus far. Lets not stop now.


edit on 1 18 2016 by tadaman because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 18 2016 @ 07:42 AM
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originally posted by: Gnosisisfaith
Islam is very and more tolerant than christianity


No, no no. You don't get to say that without numerous examples of how tolerant Islam is of others who aren't Muslim or do things against Muslim doctrine.

Let's hear them.........



posted on Jan, 18 2016 @ 08:18 AM
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a reply to: enlightenedservant


You're making too many assumptions though. First, women are protected by the Qur'an, not oppressed by it. In fact, when compared to the Bible, the Qur'an gives far more rights to women. The Qur'an even guarantees women the rights to divorce & to receive inheritances (and an ex-husband has to keep taking care of her until she remarries, which is essentially alimony). Women will be judged on Judgment Day, just as men will be. And they still face the same requirements as men, such as praying, going on Hajj, charity, belief, not lying or stealing, and even fasting during Ramadan (though women can't fast during menstruation, which makes sense from a health perspective).


You do not need to be preaching that to us; you need to be preaching that to the thugs driving around in white pick-up trucks beating up on girls. That's one of Islam's problems at the moment, isn't it? It has been hijacked by men who are little better than criminals, and instead of challenging them to restore Islam to it's compassionate teachings, Muslims try to defend them.


What you're talking about is misogyny, which can happen in any culture.


True; but misogyny is considered a regressive, unwanted trait in "western" culture. Most western states now grant women all the same rights as men. Spousal abuse is considered a crime. Rapists are punished, not the victims. Again, rather than preach Qu'ranic teachings to westerners who already abhor misogyny, perhaps you should be encouraging ummah to get with the program.


As far as the tolerance part, I think you're forgetting something. There are more than 1.6 BILLION of us. If we were really intolerant as people fearmonger about, why didn't even a tenth of us react to the drawings of the Prophet Muhammad through intolerance attacks? That would've been 160 MILLION attacks. I'm sure the entire world would've felt it if that were true. Instead, a Muslim was assigned to guard the Charlie Hebdo office & he was the first one killed in the attack there.


Those 160 million don't live in Paris. It only took, what, six? And shockingly, many polls show that an overwhelming majority of Muslims feel the murders were justified. Christians and Jews have been mocking themselves and each other for centuries. No-one got killed over "The Life of Brian" or "Wholly Moses." It is not about "tolerance," it is about having a sense of perspective, a sense of humor. If the ummah cannot develop a sense of humor, it will not last much longer... it will destroy itself with internal conflict. "A Shi'ite and a Sunni walk into a bar...'I won't see you if you won't see me!'" (Ba-dum-dum!)


There are people all over the world who get angry for different reasons. Saying that Islam needs to "reform" because of the anger of a Muslim that commits a crime is no different than me saying Christianity needs to "reform" since so many self-described Christians in America get angry and commit crimes. Christians would probably say the criminal or violent person isn't representing Christianity when they do those things, which I agree with. But do they give the same courtesy to Islam when a self-described Muslim commits a crime or does something violent? Are mental illness, workplace violence, stress, or any of those other excuses accepted to justify that behavior?


Islam does not need to reform because a few craziest use it to justify doing things they want to; every religion has that problem. You are ignoring the elephant in the room: the situation in West Asia. Muslims are massacring each other and justifying it by invoking a dispute over tribal leadership over a millennium old! Islam need to reform because religion is not a viable basis for government. Religion is irrational, and a state needs a logical, flexible foundation. Laws need to change as society and technology evolve.

Remember, you cannot truly submit to God's will if it is forced upon you. People need to be free to pursue their own spiritual path. That is the true meaning of tolerance. It doesn't just mean not automatically killing everyone who offends you; it means being willing to create a public space where everyone is free to express themselves. Muslims need to realize that American and European women find hijabs every bit as offensive as Muslims find cartoons about the Prophet. Once they understand that, they will begin to understand what tolerance truly is.
edit on 18-1-2016 by DJW001 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 18 2016 @ 08:22 AM
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originally posted by: pavil

originally posted by: Gnosisisfaith
Islam is very and more tolerant than christianity


No, no no. You don't get to say that without numerous examples of how tolerant Islam is of others who aren't Muslim or do things against Muslim doctrine.

Let's hear them.........


Historically, Muslim rulers have allowed Christians and Jews to practice their religion in lands that they ruled. There was generally a tax to be paid, and sometimes demeaning costumes were required to be worn in public. We owe much of our knowledge of the classics-- Greek and Roman-- to Christians and Jews who translated the works into Arabic... then translated them back again as Islam was pushed back out of Europe.



posted on Jan, 18 2016 @ 10:36 AM
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I have a great idea. Lets make stereotypes applicable to all people. Let's give in to the Christian and American typical ignorance and think we have rights that others don't deserve. Let's ignore the fact that Muslims and Arabs are dying every day because we bomb their neighborhood yet no one blames Christianity. Isnt ignorance fun?



posted on Jan, 18 2016 @ 12:34 PM
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originally posted by: Gnosisisfaith
I have a great idea. Lets make stereotypes applicable to all people. Let's give in to the Christian and American typical ignorance and think we have rights that others don't deserve. Let's ignore the fact that Muslims and Arabs are dying every day because we bomb their neighborhood yet no one blames Christianity. Isnt ignorance fun?


This is a total non sequitur. No-one is claiming that anyone has rights that others don't... Although Muslims seem to think that they have a right not to be offended. As for the violence in the world, there is plenty of blame to go around.



posted on Jan, 18 2016 @ 12:56 PM
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If we want to get rid of Muslim extremism, then social engineering is necessary.
Social engineering is happening right now... Look at Europe.



posted on Jan, 18 2016 @ 01:38 PM
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a reply to: woodwardjnr



I'm always reading how immigrants must intergrate into our culture, but in the same papers they are reporting the binge drinking activities of youngsters over the festive period. Black eye Friday. The last working day before Xmas, when it's seen as acceptable to end your night in the a&E department of the hospital after too much drinking and high jinx. Or maybe they should intergrate by joining in on our consumer society. Where the shopping complex has taken over the role of a church where people worship at the alter if the cash till. Or maybe they should book holidays to Spain and join in the activities of Brits abroad. With young girls wearing next to nothing on nights out. Do we want them to intergrate with these great parts of our culture, to become more like us and moderate. I can certainly see why some maybe reluctant to intergrate into many parts of British culture. I struggle to intergrate as I don't drink, which is a large part of our culture. I don't wave flags I don't agree with royalty or sing the national anthem, yet I'm still British and a moderate politically. Do I need to be socially engeneerd to be more British? Do I integrate enough


It sounds like you're describing a culture that has given up on British culture long ago. That is perhaps the case, since most of have taken to describing it in a negative light – life imitates art as much as art imitates life, Wilde used to say – without once referring to its positive charms.



posted on Jan, 18 2016 @ 02:01 PM
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Does anyone find it suspicious that Russia fund one side of the Syrian civil war, America the other, yet American Russian diplomatic relations are pretty good. Maybe they are collaborating to destabilize the region and key to public support is getting you to think it's Islam that is the problem. And it's propaganda, obviously still effective, that is responsible for the ignorance of Islam that America has. For all we know these terrorist acts are done by mind control victims, and the media and State work to constantly decieve us. Islam has more in common with christianity than Judaism, and more in common than opposed to with christianity.



posted on Jan, 18 2016 @ 02:07 PM
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a reply to: DJW001
Social engineering is a sick suggestion as to reforming Islam. Christianity nneeds it more. Islam birthed a cultural and scientific era of prosperity and Jerusalem was a haven for jews, Muslims AND Christians before the jealous and destitutePope offered absolution of any sins committed during the crusades to soldiers of the equally jealous and destitute European monarchies ending a golden age of tolerance.



posted on Jan, 18 2016 @ 02:16 PM
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a reply to: DJW001
I really would call what this is suggestion spiritual eugenics. Worthless. Even the term social engineering sounds like a nazi euphemism. Race and resettlement act or department of racial hygiene are less disturbing to me than social engineering. Sounds like a think tank of elitist fascists deciding what is best for them.



posted on Jan, 18 2016 @ 02:46 PM
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a reply to: Gnosisisfaith

I am not advocating social engineering. On the other hand, the calls for shariah law to be imposed on secular societies certainly could be considered such. It is true that the sciences flourished briefly in Islamic lands, but they have since fallen woefully behind. Even relatively modern Islamic nations like Egypt have startlingly low rates of literacy. This is none of "the West's" business, however. The ummahmust fix these problems on its own. The first step is for Muslims to stop blaming all their problems on everyone but themselves.
edit on 18-1-2016 by DJW001 because: (no reason given)



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