Is the 'Book of Revelation' originally a Jewish Text that was later doctored by 'Christians' ?

a reply to: Punisher75You mean the false prophet Saul the Pharisee? Do it im in.

a reply to: Punisher75You mean the false prophet Saul the Pharisee? Do it im in.

Saul the Pharisee, fooling the gullible for 2000 years. Amazing. Lots of people have figured out he is a fraud, but christians like to call Jesus a liar. Paulianity is what it should be called.

a reply to: Gnosisisfaithanyone who disagrees but doesn't fear examining the facts go to problemswithpaul.com there are many websites that properly examine the story of paul and conclude that he is indeed a fraud. Google false apostle Paul, the proof is in the scriptures. His actions and words prove how low this guy was. Jesus only acknowledged 12 Apostles in Revelation. Start with that. Don't skim through the passages to the ones you like, read it cover to cover. I saw it myself, investigated it, and I know Saul is a false prophet. So do a lot of astute people. Don't be deceived because vits in the bible. It's a story of a false prophet. Doesn't invalidate the bible

a reply to: rnaa

Dont mistake the Israelis and the old Jews for the same people

originally posted by: Gnosisisfaith
a reply to: Gnosisisfaithanyone who disagrees but doesn't fear examining the facts go to problemswithpaul.com

www.worldslastchance.com...

originally posted by: Gnosisisfaith
Saul the Pharisee, fooling the gullible for 2000 years. Amazing. Lots of people have figured out he is a fraud, but christians like to call Jesus a liar. Paulianity is what it should be called.

Because stating it emphatically makes it true...

a reply to: Sigismundus

Do you have any links to the text you quote?

chapter 4 was originally a Jewish Apocalyptic book (possibly dating from the time of Nero c. 67 CE)

a reply to: Akragon

Yeah.

I think that's what I said.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

You wrote QUOTE Do you have any links to the text you quote? UNQUOTE

This subject is not new but take a look at James Tabor's article on the Bible History Daily webpage (see link below)that outlines some of the arguments contained in this thread ref: an embedded pre-Christian text within the body of the Book of Revelation than can be recovered more or less in tact.

www.biblicalarchaeology.org...

Also check out this link as well
jamestabor.com...

and here : unsettledchristianity.com...

Does this help?

a reply to: Sigismundus

All the books of the Bible were originally Jewish texts. Jesus and all his apostles were Jews.

originally posted by: peskyhumans
a reply to: Sigismundus

All the books of the Bible were originally Jewish texts. Jesus and all his apostles were Jews.

Is a Jew a Jew?

I mean, like homogenized, all the same? Aren't there different sects?

What exactly makes a Jew a Jew?

a reply to: Annee

Jews are a race (descendants of Abraham) and a religion (Judaism). Jesus and his apostles were both.

a reply to: peskyhumans

You wrote QUOTE : "All the books of the Bible were originally Jewish texts. Jesus and all his apostles were Jews..." UNQUOTE

This is true enough - but I think you are missing the entire point of this thread, which is: there exists embedded within the current Book of Revelation (Apocalypse of Yohanon the Levite) a recoverable Jewish Apocalypse more or less intact that has nothing whatsoever to do with 'Jesus' but rather picturing a future Warrior Messiah, much like what the Dead Sea Covenanters were looking for.

The context or millieu for this embedded preChristian Jewish Apocalypse would of course be the 1st Failed Jewish War against Rome (66-72 CE) - see Rev. 11:1-3 where the image is of the Court of the Gentiles that has been usurped by occupying Roman soldiers (c. 68 CE) who were then besieging Jerusalem.

"And lo, I was given a Reed
and behold, it was like a measuring rod
and I was told, “Go and measure
Even the great Temple of EL
and carefully measure the altar thereof
And number the number of worshippers within.
But, lo, exclude the outer court;
Yea, do not measure it,
because it has been given to the Goyim.
And they will trample underfoot
Even the Holy City itself
Even for a period of 42 months."

There is a subtle difference between 1st century Judaism and 1st Century early Christianity in that the latter holds R. Yehoshua bar Yosef the Galilean to be the Messiah (Jewish Christians), whereas normative Judaism (including Messianic Jews like the Dead Sea Scroll Covenanters) do not hold such an allegiance to him.

Is this not clear to you?

originally posted by: peskyhumans
a reply to: Annee

Jews are a race (descendants of Abraham) and a religion (Judaism). Jesus and his apostles were both.

Thank you. I appreciate clear definement on this subject when possible.

BTW: I do not want to derail the thread. Was just looking for clarification. There are websites for "Jesus was not a Jew". What is said may sound logical to me, but I am not knowledgeable enough to know what is right.

a reply to: peskyhumans

Jews are a race (descendants of Abraham) and a religion (Judaism). Jesus and his apostles were both.

no Jews are not a race they were and then a nationality, from the land of of Judea. before then they were called Israelite's, and before that Hebrew's. now they are just a religion.

their race is the same as all people that came out of Palestine / the Levant, Semites. just like the Arabs.
a wiki caucus, it's fast.

The region of origin of the reconstructed Proto-Semitic language, ancestral to historical and modern Semitic languages in the Middle East, is still uncertain and much debated. However, a recent Bayesian analysis identified an origin for Semitic languages in the Levant (modern Syria and Lebanon) around 3750 BC with a later single introduction from what is now Southern Arabia into the Horn of Africa (Ethiopia) around 800 BC.[5] Other theories include an origin in either Mesopotamia, the Arabian Peninsula or North Africa. The Semitic language family is also considered a component of the larger Afroasiatic macro-family of languages. Identification of the hypothetical proto-Semitic region of origin is therefore dependent on the larger geographic distributions of the other language families within Afroasiatic, whose origins are also hotly debated. According to Christy G. Turner II, there is an archaeological and physical anthropological reason for a relation between the modern Semitic-speaking populations of the Levant and the Natufians.[6]

The earliest positively proven historical attestation of any Semitic people comes from 30th century BC Mesopotamia, with the East Semitic Akkadian-speaking peoples of the Kish civilization,[7][8] entering the region originally dominated by the non-Semitic Sumerians (who spoke a language isolate). The earliest known Akkadian inscription was found on a bowl at Ur, addressed to the very early pre-Sargonic king Meskiang-nuna of Ur by his queen Gan-saman, who is thought to have been from Akkad. However, some of the names appearing on the Sumerian king list as prehistoric rulers of Kish have been held to indicate a Semitic presence even before this, as early as the 30th or 29th century BC.[9] By the mid 3rd millennium BC,[10] many states and cities in Mesopotamia had come to be ruled or dominated by Akkadian-speaking Semites, including Assyria, Eshnunna, Akkad, Kish, Isin, Ur, Uruk, Adab, Nippur, Ekallatum, Nuzi, Akshak, Eridu and Larsa.

During this period (c. 27th to 26th century BC), another East Semitic-speaking people, the Eblaites, appear in historical record from northern Syria, founding the state of Ebla, whose language was closely related to the Akkadian of Mesopotamia.
Semitic people

remember Abraham came from Ur of the Chaldees, they very first person to be called a Hebrew

I am not so much into Opinionated bloggers.

I am interested in seeing an actual text from 67ce that is a Jewish Apocalyptic book and what is its name that is compared to the book of revelation. If I could have a copy of it Greek or Hebrew will do it doesn't have to be in English. I would like to compare them myself.

Thanks for the links.

a reply to: Sigismundus

you can find that same imagery of text in Ezekiel

Can I get a copy I am very interested. Is it at a museum where I could take a look or request a facsimile.

The Dead Sea scrolls were written over 500 years before this supposed Jewish Apocalyptic book. So let's have a look at this mystery text you are quoting from.

It is interesting that so many scholars take issue with Dr. James Tabor's work...

www.biblearchaeology.org...

"The television documentary produced a flurry of responses from scholars across the theological spectrum who took umbrage with the way the archaeological material was handled and interpreted. I said as much four years ago at the Near East Archaeological Society meeting in Atlanta, when I delivered a paper on the Jesus ossuary in the Talpiot tomb. At the time, the ossuary was basically unknown except to specialists. My own knowledge of it came about due to my research into Jesus bloodline mythologies, an esoteric subject until The DaVinci Code. Since I have a habit of investigating the intersection of the arcane and Biblical studies, it has been gratifying to see so many scholars turn a critical eye toward this kind of material, since it has a profound impact on the general public."

originally posted by: Punisher75
It is interesting that so many scholars take issue with Dr. James Tabor's work...

Are there any that support it?