Is the 'Book of Revelation' originally a Jewish Text that was later doctored by 'Christians' ?

a reply to: Sigismundus

I believe I have in my hand an English copy of the Bible, Preserved by God unto this generation as promised in Ps12:6,7, that has the actual book of Revelation just as God inspired it to John with no corruption.

a reply to: Akragon

Thought I would throw in my 2 cents on the trinity argument. There actually is mentions of a trinity in the Old Testament. Thought not necessarily the one of 1st John 5:7 however.

To start with there is the book of Zechariah. Zechariah 4 states that the Lord has 2 companions. And in Zechariah 6 it was foretold that each of his "branches" or companions would build a Jewish temple.

Then in Malachi 3:1 it is predicted that the Lord and his 2 messengers would appear at the temple.

Also in Genesis 18:1 and 2 says this.

1 And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,

And in Daniel 12 it says this.

5 Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river.
6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?
7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

The one on the river was the Lord. Had it been an angel it would have corrected him.

So the point of all that is the Lord has 2 companions. Personal assistants. So technically the Lord has a trinity. Himself and his assistants. Though what the assistants are is not explained. Angels? Archangels? Or something higher?

a reply to: ntech

And you realise of course that Christianity has had aboit 1800 years to dig though the bible and pick out every single detail that somehow might elude to a trinity...

Judaism doesn't have a trinity... there is something like a trinity in some sects, but none of them are Three = one

Jesus was a jew

We know the texts in the NT were altered by Trinitarians... and yes there is solid proof of it

And Jesus even quoted the Shema... meaning there was one God... The Father


Companions.... personal assistants... none of it says three equals one God

Trinity comes from paganism and hindu. Not a real thing. Only one God. Jesus just Messiah.

a reply to: Annee

No I do agree.

a reply to: Sigismundusrevelation is a great introduction to the Koran and not a Jewish book

Don't mind the johnchester, he knows everything. The bible is magic and man couldn't possibly have made it on his own. Except he did.

a reply to: Gnosisisfaith

I never said the bible was magic, I quotes scripture where God seai he owuld preserve his word to every generation and he has. God is not a magician but almighty and sovereign.

You post linked in the reply is a clear violation of the T&C, this thread is not about me and you have lead it so many directions.

You have made opinions with no factual support except your words alone.

you're agtagonistic, name calling and trollish at best.

that is why some of your post will and should disappear.

originally posted by: Gnosisisfaith
a reply to: Annee

No I do agree.

But, you believe in a god, don't you?

a reply to: Annee

I believe their COULD be a God, but I don't know. Anything beyond that id be deceiving myself. Doubt is humble.

When you get 3 1/2 hours watch the video.
Understand that "monotheism" as we understand the concept, and "monotheism" as a Jew prior to the 2nd century understood it is not the same animal.

www.youtube.com...

Here is a Chapter in a book written by a guy Named J.C. O'Neil.
www.michaelsheiser.com...

Here is an academic paper concerning, the "two powers in heaven" doctrine espoused by mainstream Hebrews prior to the 2nd century.
www.academia.edu...

Alan F. Segal, a practicing Jewish scholar wrote a book called "Two Powers in Heaven: Early Rabbinic Reports about Christianity and Gnosticism" and ironically enough he recognizes the the thought found in pre-second century Jews, however his take away is that they (ancient Jews) just did not know what they were talking about and were being heretical.

In short... Monotheism did not mean what you think it means, to a Hebrew prior to the second century.

a reply to: Punisher75
The original Israelites were henotheists. El Elyon or God Most High was father of all the different nations individual Gods like the rest of Canaan and Mesopotamia. Even properly translated bibles in Deuteronomy make this clear, El Elyon gave Israel to Yahweh as an inheritance. Modern translations trash history when they merge El Elyon and Yahweh. Monotheistic Israel didn't exist until after Babylonian captivity.

originally posted by: Gnosisisfaith
a reply to: Annee

I believe their COULD be a God, but I don't know. Anything beyond that id be deceiving myself. Doubt is humble.

OK

Yes, God can not be proven or disproven.

originally posted by: Gnosisisfaith
a reply to: Punisher75
The original Israelites were henotheists. El Elyon or God Most High was father of all the different nations individual Gods like the rest of Canaan and Mesopotamia. Even properly translated bibles in Deuteronomy make this clear, El Elyon gave Israel to Yahweh as an inheritance. Modern translations trash history when they merge El Elyon and Yahweh. Monotheistic Israel didn't exist until after Babylonian captivity.

I am not in total opposition to this understanding, as it concerns the the gods of other nations as that is my view as well.
However I suspect we have very different views, on the understanding that the Hebrews had of a monotheist God.

a reply to: Punisher75
Most non orthodox jews still believe in the 70 sons of the Most High God, and his consort asherah. They call it the 72 names of God, but that's not what they believe in actuality.

a reply to: Punisher75run of the mill orthodox jews have no idea what there Talmudic brethren are up to.

a reply to: Gnosisisfaith

You wrote

QUOTE "The original Israelites were henotheists. El Elyon or God Most High was father of all the different nations individual Gods like the rest of Canaan and Mesopotamia. Even properly translated bibles in Deuteronomy make this clear, El Elyon gave Israel to Yahweh as an inheritance. Modern translations trash history when they merge El Elyon and Yahweh. Monotheistic Israel didn't exist until after Babylonian captivity..."
UNQUOTE

Here is some background on some of the terminology...

Henotheism (Greek ἑνας θεός henas theos "one god") is the worship of a single supreme clan-god while accepting the existence of other deities that may also be served below him. The term was originally coined by Friedrich Wilhelm Joseph von Schelling (1775–1854) to depict early stages of monotheism that we see in preExilic Yisro'el (i.e. prior to 587 BCE)
It is aligned in meaning with Monolatrism or monolatry (Greek: μόνος (monos) = single, + λατρεία (latreia) = worship) which is the recognition of many gods but with the consistent worship of only one supreme deity over them. The term was first coined by Carl Graaf & Julius Wellhausen in the late 19th century.

Take a look at Exodus 6:3 for an attempt to start the melding process of various Canaanite clan-gods into the single post-exilic clan-god YHWH for the Israelites - in a statement which was added to the text after the Babylonian Captivity (post 587 BCE) when only one-clan-god was allowed (YHWH is our clan-god, YHWH alone, i.e. = שְׁמַע, יִשְׂרָאֵל: יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵינוּ, יְהוָה אֶחָד also known as the Shema')

Exodus 6:3
"I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob as El Shaddai, but by my name YHWH I did not make myself fully known to them..."

It seems that El Elyon, El Shaddai and El Berit among others were later syncretised into a single clan-god YHWH after the Babylonian Exile, and most modern translations often blur the distinction.

a reply to: Sigismundus
I just said that. They invented the word henotheist to describe this

a reply to: Sigismundus

You basically confirmed what I was saying. Why would you define a word for me if I used it properly? I know they merged all the gods into Yahweh, that was my point. But thanks for telling me even though I already knew

a reply to: Sigismundus

You basically confirmed what I was saying. Why would you define a word for me if I used it properly? I know they merged all the gods into Yahweh, that was my point. But thanks for telling me even though I already knew